OzSpen
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Therefore, you reject a lot of Scripture. Sounds more like a humanistic view than a biblically based understanding.
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Therefore, you reject a lot of Scripture. Sounds more like a humanistic view than a biblically based understanding.
I agree with the verse quoted. Eternal punishment. Question. If one ceased to exist... To become as if he had never been... Would that not be punishment, and eternal? What you are describing is not punishment, it is punishing. It is ongoing. It is something that God could never be satisfied with because it necessitates His constant attention to keep billions of people alive, and it never ends, their at no stage could He declare, it is done, and it is good. It suggests, no it categorically declares that God is incapable of dealing with the problem of sin. That He, and all creation, have to tolerate it in our midst forever. That is not the God of the Bible. Nor is it the God I have leaned to love and trust.
I reject no scripture. I accept fully that sinners shall be punished. I accept fully that said punishment shall be agonisingly painful, both mentally and physically... As it was with Jesus Who took mine instead of me. But Jesus is not still being punished. The wages of sin is death. Which is what Jesus accepted in our stead. Not the wages of sin is eternal torment... Which Jesus did not accept in our stead.
ScottA
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Okay...and how do you define "his coming", since He has promised "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me?"
OzSpen
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brakelite,
Here is why I do not believe the Bible teaches what you have stated here:
Before Christ’s resurrection, both believers and unbelievers went to Sheol/Hades – two separate places in that location (see Isa 14:9-20; 44:23; Ezek 32:21; Lk 16:22-23). After the resurrection, believers go to be with Christ (Phil. 1:23) which is better than Hades. According to 2 Cor. 5:6-9, believers are present with the Lord and are worshipping with the angelic hosts in heaven (Heb. 12:22-23).
We understand that Christ went to Hades at death (see Acts 2:31). When Jesus was in Hades, Peter explains that Christ was proclaiming to “the spirits now in prison” (1 Peter 3:18-22).
However, in the Gospel records (e.g. Luke 23:43), Paradise refers to the section of Hades reserved for the righteous. By the time of Paul’s writing in 2 Cor. 12:2-4, Paradise seems to have been taken out of Hades and is now the third heaven.
So, with progressive revelation, we understand that after the resurrection of Jesus, the believer who dies goes to heaven at death and there awaits the future resurrection to the eternal state.
What about unbelievers now? The Scriptures seem to teach that they go into torment in the intermediate state in Hades, awaiting the final judgment. Peter described it this way:
“Then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment” (2 Peter 2:9 NIV)
“To hold” in the Greek of this verse is a present, active infinitive, meaning that the wicked are being kept where they are, captive continuously. This verse clearly refutes annihilation of the wicked after death as there would be nothing “to hold” until the judgment day if they had no existence. Peter says the unrighteous are “continuing their punishment”, this phrase is interpreting a present, passive participle that indicates the unbelievers are being continuously tormented/punished. The Greek grammar of this text clearly states that the wicked dead are experiencing torment as they await the final judgment.
We read about the final judgment in Rev. 20:13-15 when Hades (the place for the wicked who died after Christ’s resurrection) will be emptied of the wicked dead and will face God for judgment. At that point, the wicked will be cast into hell.
Oz
Isn't there a difference between immortality and eternal life?
Dictionaries - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Immortality
Immortality [N] [E]
A state or condition free from both death and decay. The Bible affirms that only God by nature has immortality ( 1 Tim 6:16 ; cf. Deut 32:40 ; Rom 1:23 ; 1 Tim 1:17 ). It also implies that it is a potential state for human beings. Humankind failed to obtain this state because of sin ( Gen 2:17 ; 3:19 ), but it is given by God to righteous persons ( Rom 2:6-7 ; 1 Cor 15:23-56 ).
God never had a beginning and He never had to die.
We have to die, but after that we get eternal life.
Eternal life means that we go to heaven to be with God.
Eternal judgment (or damnation) means that we will not go to be with God.
Hebrews 9:27
John 5:29
Why would the unsaved go to a judgement, as in John 5:29, IF they are just going to be annihialated?
OzSpen
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brakelite,
You have rewritten Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus with your own afterlife spin.
Luke 16:19-31 (NIV) states:
19 ‘There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 ‘The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, “Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.”
25 ‘But Abraham replied, “Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.”
27 ‘He answered, “Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.”
29 ‘Abraham replied, “They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.”
30 ‘“No, father Abraham,” he said, “but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.”
31 ‘He said to him, “If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.”’
22 ‘The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, “Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.”
25 ‘But Abraham replied, “Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.”
27 ‘He answered, “Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.”
29 ‘Abraham replied, “They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.”
30 ‘“No, father Abraham,” he said, “but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.”
31 ‘He said to him, “If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.”’
It doesn't matter if one accepts this story as a true narrative or a parable, the truth being taught is what happens after death for believer and unbeliever.
The unbeliever was in agony in a 'place of torment'. It was not a realm of torment that stopped being torment after a period of time.
You say:
The wages of sin is death. Which is what Jesus accepted in our stead. Not the wages of sin is eternal torment.
That is not what Luke 16 teaches. I refer you to my article, Is there literal fire in hell?
Oz
OzSpen
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Daniel prophesied (12:2 NIV): 'Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt'.
'Everlasting life' and 'everlasting contempt' refer to a derived immortality and not to the one God who is immortal in essence.
quietthinker
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Not obvious at all. Unless we properly understand the afterlife from Scripture (particularly the New Testament) we will never understand what that means. Today we have a great deal of confusion about the afterlife.
quietthinker
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So when we are spiritually connected to Christ...He in us, the hope of glory... Which answers to the above verse, you would proposition the idea that such a time is when we are resurrected physically to eternal life... That mortal is then at that time clothed with immortality? If that is the case, then your concepts are more diverse from mine than I heretofore realised. We will never agree.
OzSpen
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Enoch,
So, what is the meaning of this verse? 'Then they [the unrighteous] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life' (Matt 25:46 NIV). How long is 'eternal punishment'? How long is immortality?
Oz
OzSpen
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qt,
What's the difference between physical death and spiritual death in Scripture?
Oz
OzSpen
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Annihilation doesnt take place at death. The wicked also are resurrected, and as Jesus said, the whole body soul spirit is destroyed in hell. Mark 9:43-47. That resurrection takes place at the end of the millennium when the city new Jerusalem descends from heaven to the earth. The fire which destroys the wicked comes down from heaven forming the lake which devours everything prior to the new earth being created.
Despite your theological expertise and linguistic skills you still need to reconcile your conclusions with the character of God. My questions regarding the final resolution to the sin problem are not answered by eternal torment.
Because the arbitrary punishment or execution of the wicked is a concept totally foreign to the character of God who demanded even of us that there be two or more witnesses to a crime before punishment is given out. What righteousness He asks of us is the same He Himself exercises. Justice seen to be done is important to God to counter before the universe the lies and slander of the accuser.
OzSpen
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brakelite,
I have no idea why you included Mark 9:43-47 as a reference to support your theology because this is what it states:
43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell (NIV).
Your statements here are your theories:
- Annihilation doesn't take place at death.
- the whole body soul spirit is destroyed in hell. Mark 9:43-47
- That resurrection takes place at the end of the millennium when the city new Jerusalem descends from heaven to the earth.
- The fire which destroys the wicked comes down from heaven forming the lake which devours everything prior to the new earth being created.
Oz
OzSpen
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brakelite,
You do this so regularly of giving us a piece out of your mind but with no biblical support stated.
Let's get some things clear about the nature of God:
1. God was dealing with Sodom and Scripture states:
22The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord. d 23Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare e the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right? (Gen 18:22-25 NIV).
Not one person in life or death will stand before him with this accusation, 'You did me wrong. I am not experiencing justice'.
2. Please tell me where God requires 2 or 3 witnesses to determine if justice is achieved?
3. There is no biblical theology of 'arbitrary punishment or execution of the wicked' (your language). God's teaching is:
There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And he answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? 3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? 5 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:1-5 ESV)
God warns people who do not repent about what is ahead for them. They will ALL perish (that is not annihilation).
4. Your view is that 'Justice seen to be done is important to God'. No, God wants justice done by God himself. He would never accept justice as seen from a human perspective. God's view is: 'God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you' (2 Thess 1:6 NIV).
Oz
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