It is not a question of being defective. It is a question of being of God.
satan was perfect in every way, yet he was a murderer from the beginning. (John 8:44)
Stranger
Does God know
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It is not a question of being defective. It is a question of being of God.
satan was perfect in every way, yet he was a murderer from the beginning. (John 8:44)
Stranger
Again, you are trying to make God like you. God does love. Thus He provided all that was necessary for man to be saved. Only those that are of God will come to God and Christ.
All any have to do is come to Christ. But they who are not of God will not come to Christ. They don't want Him. To be with Christ would be hell for these people. They don't want hell. But neither do they want Christ.
Stranger
OzSpen
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n2t,
You gave no Scripture to support your view that God's omniscience does not cover those chosen in Christ and those who reject him.
There is a clear Scripture that opposes your OP:
To God’s elect, exiles, scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:
Grace and peace be yours in abundance (1 Peter 1:1-2 NIV).
Grace and peace be yours in abundance (1 Peter 1:1-2 NIV).
God's foreknowledge is that he will know ahead of time who will choose 'to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood', i.e. to become Christians. Salvation is always 'the gift of God' (Eph 2:8 NIV) but we can choose to accept or reject it (Josh 24:15; John 3:16; Acts 2:21).
However, TULIP Calvinism causes confusion in 1 Pet 1:1-2 through its U and I doctrines. How is it possible for God to unconditionally elect somebody to salvation and also have foreknowledge of what they will do? Am I missing something?
Oz
That is about the elect. It doesn't say anything about the non-elect.
You also write about "omniscience" when the Bible says God does not see some things and also forgets some things. What we humans think about "knowing" may not be worth much to God.
You also write about "omniscience" when the Bible says God does not see some things and also forgets some things. What we humans think about "knowing" may not be worth much to God.
When we read that Jacob was elect and Esau was not, perhaps we should study what the Old Testament has to say about Esau. Only then can we derive God's intention for Esau and his descendants. We will see how God intended to bless Esau eventually. Jacob, being elect, was already blessed; and it would be through Jacob that God wanted Esau to be blessed.
Ruth came from a cursed tribe. What can we make of that?
Ruth came from a cursed tribe. What can we make of that?
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OzSpen
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Giuliano,
Yes, 1 Pet 1:1-2 (NIV) is about God's foreknowledge of the elect but that automatically infers that the God of all knowledge would know who the non-elect are. This is further emphasised in Psalm 147:5 (NRSV), 'Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure'. The ERV translates this verse as, 'Our Lord is great and powerful. There is no limit to what he knows'.
Oz
I would not infer that. I would not assume my understanding is equal to His, that I can infer what God thinks. This speaks about nations who did not "know" God:
Isaiah 55:5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not,
and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee
because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel;
for he hath glorified thee.
6 Seek ye the Lord while he may be found,
call ye upon him while he is near:
7 let the wicked forsake his way,
and the unrighteous man his thoughts:
and let him return unto the Lord,
and he will have mercy upon him;
and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways,
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
OzSpen
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It seems I wasn't clear in the point I was making. I Peter 1:1-2 (NIV) demonstrates that God has foreknowledge of who will be in the elect.
However, this same God with the same knowledge states, 'Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account' (Heb 4:13 NIV).
So God knows all of the damned as well as the elect.
I'm not questioning the fact that some people are foreknown by God.
Is -- present tense.
Now you're saying God "foreknows" everyone? That's not what I read -- I read that those God foreknows, He calls, etc.
Then why create such people? So He can take pleasure in looking at them eternally?
Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
I do not see how people can think He created some people knowing full well they would perish and would not come to repentance. God is Love. He would not create people "foreknowing" they would perish. I cannot believe such a thing.
What Scripture says is that God hated Esau. It doesn't say anything less. God never changes his mind about Esau.
Yes, Ruth was a Moabitess. You make that Ruth was a Moabitess. What do you want to make?
Stranger
Ernest T. Bass
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Yes.
Foreknowledge does not require predetermination, that is, just because God foreknows what individuals will or will not be saved does not mean God predetermined it.
Before the world began, God predetermined that He would have a class of people unto Himself (Ephesians 1:4-5) and God predetermined this class of people would be saved "in Christ' be "holy and without blame" and be called "sons". God predetermined there would be a group, class of people that would be saved (Christians) but God never predetermined for man which men would or would not be in this predetermined, foreknown group. God leaves that up to man to choose to be in this group or not for if God alone solely chose for men that woud make God a respecter of persons when He is not Romans 2:11; Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35
There is a film called the butterfly effect which explores this problem. You can change the incidents, but it does not necessarily change the choices and outcome of events. There are key turning points in peoples lives, which boundary and set what is possible and what is not.
I become more convinced that in reality most will just react negatively to the Lord when they meet.
And ultimately this is the nature of eternity and who God is. It is this meeting that is the profound reality of eternity.
Paul talks about presenting believers as pure and blameless.
It is this that I find fascinating. God declares His people as pure and Holy. We have a hard time grasping these ideas, let alone walking in them. For some guys I know, to find a receptive woman is enough to just fall into sin, without a second thought. Jesus calls us to rise above our desires and to see the eternal nature of love, faithfulness, love, commitment and truth. For me this has only been possible through knowing the cross and price Jesus paid to walk this path. It puts things into a totally different perspective. God bless you
Ernest T. Bass
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The fact foreknowledge does not require predetermination can be seen in Jonah 3 and 1 Samuel 23.
As a side comment, some believe in a multiverse where each decision has its alternative choice. The problem with this model is there is no free will just infinite realities with their outcomes. If these outcomes end up in a similar conclusion, what would be the point of create multiverse alternatives. A multiverse removes free will because there are all possible outcomes and no choice is real.
I suspect multiverse propositions like saying there is no God is actually about abdicating responsibility in the heart and letting sin and hurt dictate ones direction, rather than repentance and forgiveness providing resolution and bringing life to peoples lives.
Nietzsche built a model of existence that removed significance and meaning out of relationships, which is so destructive he went nuts in the end. And this is my experience of all who walk this path. Our hearts shout significance and care for others, we need to live realising we are social and embedded in our communities and need to keep a loving caring perspective to stay alive, which is exactly what Jesus represents in the gospel.
VictoryinJesus
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Few, yet in His house is “many” mansions? Why are few called, chosen?
Why was He chosen?
Why did He pick up the cross?
Why does He say “he who doesn’t pick up his cross and follow me. Is not fit to be my disciple.”?
What does it mean to be “predestined to be conformed” to the image of his Son?
VictoryinJesus
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“Jacob, being elect, was already blessed; and it would be through Jacob that God wanted Esau to be blessed.”
Wouldn't surprise me if that were true. Luke 15:30-32 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf. [31] And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. [32] It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
You want to get some gnashing of teeth...keep saying things like that. Through those ‘chosen’ to be conformed to the image of His Son...nations will be blessed. Romans 12:14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
Nondenom40
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I implied nothing. I simply directed you to Romans 9-11. You can draw you own conclusions.
You inspire me to write about it. I see the Love of God in it. One hint about it is in Genesis:
Genesis 33:14 Let my lord, I pray thee, pass over before his servant: and I will lead on softly, according as the cattle that goeth before me and the children be able to endure, until I come unto my lord unto Seir.
Jacob was in fear of his life if he dared to go visit Esau. He did not go, not in that life. It was going to take time. God has lots of time. We read after Israel left Egypt:
Deuteronomy 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
It took hundreds of years, but Jacob did finally meet Esau at Seir. We all know about how God manifested Himself at Sinai for Israel; but not much is known about how He manifested to the Edomites. But He did.
Israel was also warned about taking any land from Esau's offspring.
Deuteronomy 2:4 And command thou the people, saying, Ye are to pass through the coast of your brethren the children of Esau, which dwell in Seir; and they shall be afraid of you: take ye good heed unto yourselves therefore:
5 Meddle not with them; for I will not give you of their land, no, not so much as a foot breadth; because I have given mount Seir unto Esau for a possession.
6 Ye shall buy meat of them for money, that ye may eat; and ye shall also buy water of them for money, that ye may drink.
Esau was under God's protection. The Edomites continued to be a source of problems and still are, I think, but God has a plan for them that may still be unfolding.
I would rather people bless me, but I can't stop them gnashing their teeth if that's their response.
I think the kingdom may be increased if we return blessings for curses. If we can get others to bless us, so much the better since I believe the non-elect can be blessed by God if they bless His elect.
The blessing for the nations goes back to Abraham, doesn't it, who was surely one of God's elect.
Genesis 18:17 And the Lord said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
Isaac was told:
Genesis 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
And Isaac blessed Jacob:
Genesis 27:29 Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: cursed be every one that curseth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee.
So we learn that God's elect are meant to be a blessing to others who are not elect. Israel was told they were to be a nation of priests, meaning they were to intercede for Gentiles.
Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
It was a problem then when Israel thought they were special in a way that meant God loved them and not the Gentiles. They forgot that God intended for all the nations to be blessed through them. They were tempted to feel superior and look down at Gentiles. God then chastised them.
The passages from the Torah about Esau are about Love; and when I see God has a plan for all mankind, it makes me love Him more, so I feel confident I got it right.
Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
You certainly were implying that God as Potter could fashion vessels, some to glory, others to damnation. You might as well said, God is free to anything, free to create people He knows will be damned if that's what He wants to do as if He is a petty tyrant. You forgot that God is Love. If I'm still reading you wrong, elucidate please.
As for Romans 9, I have no idea what you meant by citing it.
Nondenom40
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Doesn't Paul say Jacob I loved, Esau I hated? Also found in Mal 1:2-3.
Yet if you read Romans 9 you'll see there is no injustice with God. From your human perspective maybe, but not from God's.
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