Spirit's Work BEFORE Faith

SovereignGrace said:

Wonderful OP that didn't get off the ground.

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Mjh29 said:

Here is a simple question: Do we need the work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts before we have faith? I would say yes, absolutely.

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Ernest T. Bass said:

The Spirit would work in man by the Spirit's word either being read and/or preached. THose in Acts 2 heard the word preached by Peter and that word pricked them in their heart, (Acts of the Apostles 2:37). They heard the word (faith comes by hearing, Romans 10:17) and obeyed the word by repenting and being baptized for remission of sins therefore saved by the word, (James 1:21). Are men capable of hearing/reading the word and understanding the word? Yes, those in Acts 2 were lost and spiritually dead yet was able to understood the gospel word preached to them by Peter and obey it. Paul said the word can be understood when read (Ephesians 3:4).

The Spirit therefore does not work in men's heart in some miraculous way separate and apart from the word. If such were the case, how would the Spirit determine which men to work in and save and which men not to work in and be lost? Such would make the Spirit the sole arbiter as to whom will or will not be saved and showing respect of persons to those whom He works in. Yet God does not choose for men which one's will or will not be saved nor is God a respecter of persons, Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35

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Mjh29 said:

Here is a simple question: Do we need the work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts before we have faith? I would say yes, absolutely.

This is where my belief comes from. There are a few questions that need looked at from Scriptures before we can make a Biblical determination:

1.) How bad is man?

How bad is man's natural state? If it is not too bad, then perhaps man can make the right decision. Perhaps he has the capacity to make this "choice for Christ" in and of himself. Let's look at what the Scriptures say about the state of natural man.

~ Genesis 6:5
~ Genesis 8:21
~ Ecclesiastes 9:3
~ Jeremiah 17:9
~ Mark 7:21-23

Man's heart is only evil continually? Is evil from his youth? Full of evil? And from out of our hearts comes only evil and wicked things? Well, this doesn't sound like the kind of creature who is capable of making "the right choice," does it? But, just because man is evil, doesn't mean he physically can't accept; this does not prove that something is actually holding him back; preventing him. Let's go back to the Scriptures, to see if there is anything actually holding man back in and of himself.

~John 8:44
~ Ephesians 2:1-2
~ 2 Timothy 2:25-26
~ 1 John 5:19
~ John 8:34

So, man is a slave to sin? He is following the Prince of the power of the Air, and are forced to do Satan's will? We rest in the power of the evil one, and even Jesus said we are Satan's slaves? Now we see that there actually is something holding natural man back; Satan. We are slaves to him. Well, perhaps we are able to serve Christ even though we a trapped by Satan?

~ Matthew 6:24

Christ Himself says that we cannot. Natural man not only hates God himself, but is enslaved to Satan, and does his bidding. Natural man serves Satan, and loves it. He has no desire to turn to Christ in this state; he is where he wants to be. In his natural state, man is more comfortable with Satan, because the 2 have much more in common with each other than with God. But again, perhaps man can still change himself? Maybe he can make himself love God? Once more, let's turn to the Word of God to light our path.

~ Job 14:4
~ Jeremiah 13:23
~ Matthew 7:16-18
~ Matthew 12:33
~ John 6:44
~ John 6:65

So the unclean man cannot produce anything clean and good? The natural man cannot change the spots of sin that cover him to the core of his being? Natural man, as a diseased tree, cannot bear good fruit from himself? And Christ Himself says not once, but twice that man CANNOT come to God unless God Himself drags us there? This man has no hope. He is utterly devoid of any ability, and even if he had it he would not want to use it, because he is evil in and of himself! The what is the hope? Where is the Good News???

~ Romans 8:14
~ 1 Corinthians 6:11
~ 1 Corinthians 12:3
~ Titus 3:5
~ John 1:12-13

Our hope lies in the blessed truth that the Holy Spirit regenerates us by God's grace, and gives us new hearts of faith which can then serve God.



Don't just answer; I need some Scriptures to back up your claims. Let's keep this in discussion format; no name-calling, or mindless lashing out at one another. Let's have a healthy discussion. If you want to poke and prod at people, and add nothing of value [ie Scripture based response] please go to one of the many other threads that have boiled down to a glorified shouting, dirt throwing match. This is a place for actual discussion.

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Episkopos said:

Man is capable of conformity to an outward righteousness. But he is incapable from eliminating sin for an inward righteousness. No one is that self-less on his own.

There is no man (without Christ) who is so righteous that he never sins. But there is something redeemable in us...or else God would not take the time to speak to us. Man is stuck somewhere between good and bad...but he is neither until he either goes his own way (bad) or else turns to God (good).

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