Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

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prism

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Are you praying for him?

Hebrews 9:27 KJVS
[27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Same principal with David's son...

2 Samuel 12:16-23 KJVS
[16] David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth. [17] And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them. [18] And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead? [19] But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead. [20] Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the Lord, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat. [21] Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread. [22] And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live? [23] But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
 

GodsGrace

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Again I find myself agreeing with the Orthodox: You can't agree to a text and then add something and claim it wasn't changed. I also agree with the Orthodox on the point of doctrine. It likely originated in Spain. Don't take my word for it. American bishops say so, and they're right.
I don't know very much about the Orthodox church,,,but if you're stating that it believes that agreement to a text means it cannot then be changed...I'd have to agree with that too.

The CC makes changes but claims they are not changes but enlightenment, or progressive revelation but not NEW revelation....
This brings me to ask: When were they right? BEFORE or NOW?
So it kind of makes trust diminish.

[The Filioque: A Church Dividing Issue?: An Agreed Statement

The earliest use of Filioque language in a credal context is in the profession of faith formulated for the Visigoth King Reccared at the local Council of Toledo in 589. This regional council anathematized those who did not accept the decrees of the first four Ecumenical Councils (canon 11), as well as those who did not profess that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (canon 3). It appears that the Spanish bishops and King Reccared believed at that time that the Greek equivalent of Filioque was part of the original creed of Constantinople, and apparently understood that its purpose was to oppose Arianism by affirming the intimate relationship of the Father and Son. On Reccared’s orders, the Creed began to be recited during the Eucharist, in imitation of the Eastern practice. From Spain, the use of the Creed with the Filioque spread throughout Gaul.

It seems that Charlemagne may have imposed the word on the Catholic Church, just as the article at Wikipedia states. The American bishops state, again accurately:

Charlemagne received a translation of the decisions of the Second Council of Nicaea (787). The Council had given definitive approval to the ancient practice of venerating icons. The translation proved to be defective. On the basis of this defective translation, Charlemagne sent a delegation to Pope Hadrian I (772-795), to present his concerns. Among the points of objection, Charlemagne’s legates claimed that Patriarch Tarasius of Constantinople, at his installation, did not follow the Nicene faith and profess that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, but confessed rather his procession from the Father through the Son (Mansi 13.760). The Pope strongly rejected Charlemagne’s protest, showing at length that Tarasius and the Council, on this and other points, maintained the faith of the Fathers (ibid. 759-810). Following this exchange of letters, Charlemagne commissioned the so-called Libri Carolini (791-794), a work written to challenge the positions both of the iconoclast council of 754 and of the Council of Nicaea of 787 on the veneration of icons. Again because of poor translations, the Carolingians misunderstood the actual decision of the latter Council. Within this text, the Carolingian view of the Filioque also was emphasized again. Arguing that the word Filioque was part of the Creed of 381, the Libri Carolini reaffirmed the Latin tradition that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, and rejected as inadequate the teaching that the Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son.

Once again we see how religion and politics should be mixed.
You mean that religion and politics should NOT be mixed...typo.
I've often said that the cc went astray after 325 exactly for this reason.

But please confirm:
I'm reading above that the CC believes that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son...which is what I know....

And the Orthodox church believes the Spirit proceeds FROM the Son (creating a hierarchy). This is also what I know.
 

GodsGrace

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Careful now sister. They'll start confiscating our property soon enough without us encouraging them...

Pax!
Actually PJ,,,I'm happy this is all out in the open.
I don't agree that it should have been hidden all those years...
lives were ruined...trust lost.
It's terrible what was allowed to continue.
 

GodsGrace

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Read the history of the Waldenses...the Albigenses...the Hussites...the Arians...the Celtic church in Britain...there is a very long list of Christian communities even kingdoms and nations that for centuries suffered under the policies of a Roman tyranny that saw itself as God's avenger against what she considered apostasy and heresy. And this was policy. Not the random extreme practices of a select few. And that policy remains today because those who instigated those actions and encouraged them through their writings and doctrinal demands are still lauded and esteemed by the church. Those teachings have never been renounced, and the men associated with them never rebuked or disowned. Faithful Catholics all.
You mean in the long gone past.
I agree....but I think we need to get over that.
 

GodsGrace

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No, I didn't say the symbol was in the mind, I said the change of heart and the real repentance is in the mind. The whole battle between good and evil is fought in our minds. The actual act of Baptism doesn't affect anything, except as a demonstration of what has already taken place in our minds.
Maybe I'm just tired.
I hope to remember to answer to this later on....
must leave soon.

Baptism can't be only a symbol....
Jesus didn't deal with symbols,,,did He?
 
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Giuliano

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I don't know very much about the Orthodox church,,,but if you're stating that it believes that agreement to a text means it cannot then be changed...I'd have to agree with that too.

The CC makes changes but claims they are not changes but enlightenment, or progressive revelation but not NEW revelation....
This brings me to ask: When were they right? BEFORE or NOW?
So it kind of makes trust diminish.
Things seem to evolve. First some people lobby for something while others argue against it. Then the Pope or a council makes a decision and cites the oldest sources they can find in favor. Right now, an Archbishop made news demanding women be ordained as priests.

Former Vatican ambassador to UK calls for women to be ordained priests

ROME - A former Vatican ambassador to the United Kingdom says the fact women can’t be ordained to the priesthood is “intolerable.”

Spanish Archbishop Pablo Puente, 88, was speaking Aug. 25 during a Mass in honor of Ginés de la Jara, patron of the local fishermen brotherhood, in the Spanish coastal region of Cantabria.

“We cannot tolerate this flagrant discrimination against women by the Church,” Puente is reported to have said.

The archbishop’s comments were revealed on Twitter by the president of Cantabria, Miguel Ángel Revilla, who said that “in the middle” of Mass, Puente “grabbed the microphone and said: ‘Tomorrow, a very strong letter requesting that with urgency women be invested as priests will be sent to His Holiness, the Pope.’”

Afterwards, the politician said, “a good portion” of the nearly 1,000 people who attended the Mass applauded.

Puente served as apostolic nuncio to Great Britain from 1997 to 2004 and resigned at the age of 73, two years before the mandatory age of retirement. He was never given another official position.


Give them another 50 or 100 years of debate, maybe 200, and they'll be ordaining women and perhaps citing Archbishop Puente as a source.

You mean that religion and politics should NOT be mixed...typo.
I've often said that the cc went astray after 325 exactly for this reason.
Thanks for the correction; I went back and edited the post. I think maybe some were going astray before then; but when the Church got politicized, things got really mixed up.

But please confirm:
I'm reading above that the CC believes that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son...which is what I know....

And the Orthodox church believes the Spirit proceeds FROM the Son (creating a hierarchy). This is also what I know.
The Orthodox says the Spirit proceeds from the Father to the Son and then to us or perhaps from the Father to us, in a hierarchy, yes. That was their traditional understanding and they cite John 15:26.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
 

Philip James

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[27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Same principal with David's son...

Perhaps, and perhaps in his last moment God showed him a vision of you praying for him and his heart was converted...

In any event you do not have authority over and thus responsibility for your father.

You do have such for your children.

Peace be with you!
 

BreadOfLife

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I don't follow my so called Protestant Fathers. I follow my Jewish Fathers like Moses, David, Isaiah, Matthew, John, Paul, Peter etc., and of course Jesus.
Your so called "Fathers' like Irenaeus, Chrysosotom, Augustine, Terullian etc., just weren't old enough. lol
WRONG.

You can't escape your past. If you are a Christian and you are NOT Catholic or Orthodox - you follow your Protestant Fathers.
Actually - you practice a perversion of what THEY believed because many of your Protestant Fathers believed in Catholic teachings such as the Real Presence, the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, Confessing your sins to a priest, etc.

Besides - if you follow Peter - then you believe that Baptism saves you (1 Pet. 3:21). - which YOU reject.
Nice try - but history is against you . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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not the only realized how wrong the c.c was
your correct false doctrine was discovered
Matt. 16:18
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall NOT prevail against it.

But, according to YOU - Jesus lied because Hell DID prevail for 1500 years.
What a pathetic lack of faith . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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People need statues to understand God if they can't read? Pictures aren't enough?
Ordinary people also never saw the cherubim.

I seem to remember too that that serpent on the pole was destroyed when people started worshiping it. So much for teaching the masses through statues.
Correct - the serpent wasn't for worshiping. The people screwed up - not God.
How does this "condemn" the creation of statues??

THOUSANDS
of people saw the Bronze Serpent.
THOUSANDS of people visited Solomon's Temple where statues were in display.

The argument FOR paintings but AGAINST statues is a moronic one. they are BOTH imagery.
One is two dimensional and the other is three dimensional, but they're BOTH depictions. BOTH have been used throughout history to educate the masses.

Any claim to the contrary is an historically-bankrupt position . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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LOL gee, who knew the role OF the Apostels was so minuscule, and Jesus forgot to mention The Catholic Church!
UGH!
And how about those Gideon's...having given the Gospel of Christ to over Two BILLION People in the World...No cost or strings or Catholicism attached.

AWESOME!

Glory to God,
Taken
More ignorance . . .

Ummmm, the Apostles were part of the Church, Einstein.

As for "those Gideons" - they werem't even founded until 1899. That's about 1900 years AFTER the Catholic Church's founding.
"Those Gideons" wouldn't know Christ if NOT for the Catholic Church.

Do your homework . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Newsflash...prophecy. As the end is nearing A great falling away is not a secret.

So, your news is not news.

Protestants are falling away in Faith.
Catholics are falling away from the Catholic church, in Disgust of their leadership.

Glory to God,
Taken
Christians are falling away, period.

Falling away "in faith" is an asinine term.
Falling away is falling away, Einstein . . .
 

Giuliano

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Correct - the serpent wasn't for worshiping. The people screwed up - not God.
How does this "condemn" the creation of statues??
And a righteous king destroyed it so people couldn't keep messing up.

THOUSANDS
of people saw the Bronze Serpent.
THOUSANDS of people visited Solomon's Temple where statues were in display.
This is the second time you talked about this. What statues do you mean? I confess to having a profound ignorance about this.
The argument FOR paintings but AGAINST statues is a moronic one. they are BOTH imagery.
Don't blame me. Was Moses a moron when he distinguished between flat depictions and three dimensional ones? Not that I care since I'm not bound by the letter of the Law of Moses; but I wouldn't call him a moron. I have a statue of St. Francis in front of me now.

Don't blame me for the Second Council of Nicea. I wasn't there to vote; and I wasn't Pope then. That Ecumenical Council said flat images were okay when the Iconoclastic Emperor Leo III wanted to ban icons which had become more popular over time. It did not approve statues. The Catholic Church signed onto that; and then later changed course.
One is two dimensional and the other is three dimensional, but they're BOTH depictions. BOTH have been used throughout history to educate the masses.
What are homilies for and reading the Scriptures? Why do people have to study before being confirmed? Are you saying there were no homilies, Scripture reading or preparing for confirmation then? They needed pictures and statues? Seriously? You undermine your own Church and the role of homilies, Scripture and preparation for confirmation by saying people need statues to learn from.
Any claim to the contrary is an historically-bankrupt position . . .
Tell me when statues starting appearing in churches. Do you know?

I also remind you that idols are mentioned in the New Testament; and the word means "images" as well as "images of gods."
 
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prism

Blood-Soaked
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WRONG.

You can't escape your past. If you are a Christian and you are NOT Catholic or Orthodox - you follow your Protestant Fathers.
Actually - you practice a perversion of what THEY believed because many of your Protestant Fathers believed in Catholic teachings such as the Real Presence, the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, Confessing your sins to a priest, etc.

Besides - if you follow Peter - then you believe that Baptism saves you (1 Pet. 3:21). - which YOU reject.
Nice try - but history is against you . . .
Please. I know who I am in Christ Jesus NOT in Luther, Calvin or Pope Leo X.
Obviously, I have my convictions and you have yours. I think we have carried on long enough. Bye.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Please. I know who I am in Christ Jesus NOT in Luther, Calvin or Pope Leo X.
Obviously, I have my convictions and you have yours. I think we have carried on long enough. Bye.
Look - if you want to live in denial, then be my guest. Before the East-West Split in the 11th century - there was ONE Church, ONE form of Christianity.

After the 16th century - the Church splintered into what we have today:
Tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering factions that ALL teach different doctrines yet ALL claim to be the Church established by Christ.
YOURS is included in this man-made mess whether YOU want to admit it or not.
 

BreadOfLife

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And a righteous king destroyed it so people couldn't keep messing up.

This is the second time you talked about this. What statues do you mean? I confess to having a profound ignorance about this. Don't blame me. Was Moses a moron when he distinguished between flat depictions and three dimensional ones? Not that I care since I'm not bound by the letter of the Law of Moses; but I wouldn't call him a moron. I have a statue of St. Francis in front of me now.

Don't blame me for the Second Council of Nicea. I wasn't there to vote; and I wasn't Pope then. That Ecumenical Council said flat images were okay when the Iconoclastic Emperor Leo III wanted to ban icons which had become more popular over time. It did not approve statues. The Catholic Church signed onto that; and then later changed course.
What are homilies for and reading the Scriptures? Why do people have to study before being confirmed? Are you saying there were no homilies, Scripture reading or preparing for confirmation then? They needed pictures and statues? Seriously? You undermine your own Church and the role of homilies, Scripture and preparation for confirmation by saying people need statues to learn from.
Tell me when statues starting appearing in churches. Do you know?

I also remind you that idols are mentioned in the New Testament; and the word means "images" as well as "images of gods."
First of all - an image is not an "idol".
An idol is something other than God that is worshiped.

And, I'm NOT sure where you're getting your false information - but the Catholic Church has NEVER held to Iconoclasm - and actually deemed it a heresy.

The fact that you reject history is fascinating because it illustrates how FAR anti-Catholic like you will go to make your point.
History - not the Catholic Church shows that MOST people up to the end of the 18th century were functionally illiterate. That is a fact of HISTORY and NOT something that was "invented" by the Church.

Statues and images were a way of educating the masses - whether YOU approve of this historical fact or not . . .
 

aspen

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Copts didn’t accept the Pope and were around from the beginning
 

prism

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Look - if you want to live in denial, then be my guest. Before the East-West Split in the 11th century - there was ONE Church, ONE form of Christianity.

After the 16th century - the Church splintered into what we have today:
Tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering factions that ALL teach different doctrines yet ALL claim to be the Church established by Christ.
YOURS is included in this man-made mess whether YOU want to admit it or not.
I believe I already told you 'bye'. We have our own convictions, trying to persuade each other is just a further waste of time...unless you think it profitable to keep agitating, then I have the 'nuclear ignore option' LOL
 
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BreadOfLife

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I believe I already told you 'bye'. We have our own convictions, trying to persuade each other is just a further waste of time...unless you think it profitable to keep agitating.
Differences I can live with.
Lies, myths and fairy tales about the Catholic Church are another story . . .