All the ELECT please stand up

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Earburner

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BUT, as you quoted, this is the discerning factor:
John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
>> 19 "THIS IS the judgment,
that the Light HAS COME into the world...
 

Earburner

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Therefore, John 3:18 applies- "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Which is to say that when one sees/percieves "the Light", who is Christ, they MAKE A FREE WILL CHOICE to come to the Light or stay away from the Light.
 
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atpollard

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Which is to say that when one sees/percieves "the Light", who is Christ, they MAKE A FREE WILL CHOICE to come to the Light or stay away from the Light.
Perhaps. Clearly when one perceives “the Light” they make a free will choice. However note the next few verses carefully ...

[John 3:18-21 NKJV]
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
  • Condemnation is past tense ... people were already condemned.
19 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
  • Note that people love darkness of their own free will.
20 "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
  • Note that people hate light of their own free will because they have sinned
  • People choose not to come to the light of their own free will because they have sinned
  • Remember that all people have sinned.
21 "But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
  • Note that those that come into the light do so because of deeds DONE IN GOD.
  • Is that really a free will choice or is that a John 6:44 draw followed by an Ephesians 2:1-10 God transformation and God ordained good works?
  • [John 6:44 NKJV] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
  • [Ephesians 2:1-10 NKJV] 1 And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
 

atpollard

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How are people 'drawn' to Christ?
How many are 'drawn'?
Is a genuine choice involved or is it a forced election to salvation?
Good questions ...

  • [John 6:43-51 NKJV] 43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 "I am the bread of life. 49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 "This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."
  • [John 10:11-16 NKJV] 11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 "But a hireling, [he who is] not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 "The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My [sheep], and am known by My own. 15 "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock [and] one shepherd.
  • [John 10:25-30 NKJV] 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of My Father's hand. 30 "I and [My] Father are one."
  • [Romans 3:9-31 NKJV] 9 What then? Are we better [than they]? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. 10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one." 13 "Their throat [is] an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit"; "The poison of asps [is] under their lips"; 14 "Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness." 15 "Their feet [are] swift to shed blood; 16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways; 17 And the way of peace they have not known." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes." 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth [as] a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or [is He] the God of the Jews only? [Is He] not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since [there is] one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
  • [Romans 9:14-26 NKJV] 14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed [it], "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 [What] if God, wanting to show [His] wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As He says also in Hosea: "I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved." 26 "And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, 'You [are] not My people,' There they shall be called sons of the living God."
  • [Ephesians 2:1-10 NKJV] 1 And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

What does Scripture say?
 

Earburner

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Perhaps. Clearly when one perceives “the Light” they make a free will choice. However note the next few verses carefully ...

[John 3:18-21 NKJV]
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
  • Condemnation is past tense ... people were already condemned.
19 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
  • Note that people love darkness of their own free will.
20 "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
  • Note that people hate light of their own free will because they have sinned
  • People choose not to come to the light of their own free will because they have sinned
  • Remember that all people have sinned.
21 "But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
  • Note that those that come into the light do so because of deeds DONE IN GOD.
  • Is that really a free will choice or is that a John 6:44 draw followed by an Ephesians 2:1-10 God transformation and God ordained good works?
  • [John 6:44 NKJV] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
  • [Ephesians 2:1-10 NKJV] 1 And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Correct!!
All who neglect to COME to the Light REMAIN to be condemned already!!
Therefore, one must make a conscious decision, by the act of their ownn free will, to come to the light.
To neglect or disregard their own freedom of choice, is to REMAIN judged/condemned unto eternal death by default.
 

Earburner

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Good questions ...

  • [John 6:43-51 NKJV] 43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 "I am the bread of life. 49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 "This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."
  • [John 10:11-16 NKJV] 11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 "But a hireling, [he who is] not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 "The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My [sheep], and am known by My own. 15 "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock [and] one shepherd.
  • [John 10:25-30 NKJV] 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of My Father's hand. 30 "I and [My] Father are one."
  • [Romans 3:9-31 NKJV] 9 What then? Are we better [than they]? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. 10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one." 13 "Their throat [is] an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit"; "The poison of asps [is] under their lips"; 14 "Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness." 15 "Their feet [are] swift to shed blood; 16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways; 17 And the way of peace they have not known." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes." 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth [as] a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or [is He] the God of the Jews only? [Is He] not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since [there is] one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
  • [Romans 9:14-26 NKJV] 14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed [it], "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 [What] if God, wanting to show [His] wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As He says also in Hosea: "I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved." 26 "And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, 'You [are] not My people,' There they shall be called sons of the living God."
  • [Ephesians 2:1-10 NKJV] 1 And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

What does Scripture say?
It says this:
Luke 11[13] If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ASK him?
> To ask for something, is to excersise one's own free will. If one does not ask for something, then that is also the act of one's own free will.

Rom. 8[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ,
he is none of his.

Therefore, to NOT ASK for the Gift of God's Holy Spirit, means one has wilfully refused to do so, or by ignorance has neglected to do so. In either case, whether by refusal or neglect, God could not act on the giving of His Gift of His Holy Spirit, to such a person.
Heb. 2[3] How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
 

atpollard

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Correct!!
All who neglect to COME to the Light REMAIN to be condemned already!!
Therefore, one must make a conscious decision, by the act of their ownn free will, to come to the light.
To neglect or disregard their own freedom of choice, is to REMAIN judged/condemned unto eternal death by default.
Please address this:

John 3:20 "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
  • Note that people hate light of their own free will because they have sinned
  • People choose not to come to the light of their own free will because they have sinned
  • Remember that all people have sinned (Romans 3:9-11 ... among other places)
 

Earburner

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Please address this:

John 3:20 "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
  • Note that people hate light of their own free will because they have sinned
  • People choose not to come to the light of their own free will because they have sinned
  • Remember that all people have sinned (Romans 3:9-11 ... among other places)
Yes! Everyone practices evil.
There were two judgments:
One unto eternal death, and now one unto Eternal Life.
Rom. 5[18] Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
 

atpollard

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Yes! Everyone practices evil.
There were two judgments:
One unto eternal death, and now one unto Eternal Life.
Rom. 5[18] Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
John 3:20 says that all who sin hide from God and refuse to go near God.
If everyone sins then how does anyone GET TO GOD to receive the free gift?
 

Earburner

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John 3:20 says that all who sin hide from God and refuse to go near God.
If everyone sins then how does anyone GET TO GOD to receive the free gift?
John 3
[20] For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
[21] But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
>For one to "doeth truth", one must "do the work
of God". "The work of God" is to believe in Jesus.
John 6
[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
John 8[12] Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
> For the Gift of God's Salvation, every person is called (required) to come to the Light (who is Jesus), and through faith, believe in Jesus.
All for who do, it is they who "doeth the truth", which is the work of God.
 

atpollard

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John 3
[20] For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
[21] But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
>For one to "doeth truth", one must "do the work
of God". "The work of God" is to believe in Jesus.
John 6
[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
John 8[12] Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
> For the Gift of God's Salvation, every person is called (required) to come to the Light (who is Jesus), and through faith, believe in Jesus.
All for who do, it is they who "doeth the truth", which is the work of God.
So in other words, they do not really hide from God and refuse to go near God like John 3:20 says, they just decide to go to God. Is that what you are saying?
 

Earburner

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So in other words, they do not really hide from God and refuse to go near God like John 3:20 says, they just decide to go to God. Is that what you are saying?
I am saying this: "whosoever will".
John 1[6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
[7] The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
[8] He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
[9] That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
[10] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
[11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
[12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
 
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GodsGrace

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Funny that you should ask THAT particular question. I just finished a “wall of text” post discussing that exact issue ... Total Inability (aka Total Depravity) from Genesis 1 to 4. Someone challenged me to defend the “T” of TULIP and I didn’t want to just rehash the same old proof-texts, so I focused on where the problem started.

I will post it on a topic here for you.

The “Reader’s Digest” answer to ‘Calvinism’ vs ‘Arminianism’ goes something like this ...

Calvinist: God calls only the people that God chose because no one else can or will hear and obey the call of God (God chooses whomever God wants).

Arminian: God calls everyone and gives everyone a chance to be saved, but only some people make the choice to be saved (the people accept God’s offer).

Here are verses that make both sides clear:

[John 3:16-21 NASB]
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

If you read that and focus on “God so loved the world” (v16) and “whosoever believes” (v16) and “the world might be saved” (v17), then you see scripture through Arminian Colored Glasses (God calls all and some choose to respond).

If you read that and focus on “men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil” (v19) and “everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light” (v20) and “having been wrought in God” (v21), then you see scripture through Calvinist Colored Glasses (God must DRAW men to Christ, because all men will choose to hide from God if given a choice.)

All of that is one paragraph in most Bibles, but few people focus on all of the verses in that paragraph. Most people see either “the world” or “hates the light” more clearly than the other.
Sounds like I'm Arminian...although I'll bet there's more to it than that...maybe...
and I might not agree with all, but from what you posted...Arminian it is.

I very much like how you explained about John:3:16-21.
I can understand both, actually.
As born, men do love the darkness more than the light...even if they're not aware of this. If one does not choose for God, he is automatically choosing satan because man is born depraved,,,with the sin nature and must come to know God. I guess the HOW is the problem.

I personally know persons that are so dark that they cannot stand to be with me. Not that I'M the light,,,,but I certainly am not full of dark and this must be apparent to them. Or maybe it's just that birds of a feather flock together.

And certainly good deeds are wrought in God...it is only IN GOD, that we can be "good" in His eyes. Doing good deeds without/outside of God is totally useless. (well, not totally useless, but that's a different thread).

You said God must draw men to Him/Christ because on their own they cannot find God.
This is also true. From the beginning of time God has drawn men to Himself.
What do you make of Romans 1:19-20?
The reply from calvinisim is that man can find no excuse...
Exactly! Because God revealed Himself to man and so man has to make a choice and he has no excuse. This is a pivotal verse to me.
 

atpollard

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I am saying this: "whosoever will".
John 1[6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
[7] The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
[8] He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
[9] That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
[10] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
[11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
[12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I am saying that "whosoever will" is

John 1
[6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
[7] The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
[8] He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
[9] That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
[10] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
[11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
[12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


aka ...
  • [John 6:44] "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
  • [Ephesians 2:4-5] But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
  • [Romans 9:16] So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
It is not about what we want, it is all about what God wants. I didn't say it and it doesn't seem fair to my human mind, but God did say it and I have presented where he says it ... including right in the verses where you claim that we are the ones to decide. My whole point in Genesis 1-4 is that nobody had more reason to be "Whosoever Will" than Adam and Eve and Cain, but even they "would not". They hid from God. They refused to confess. They never repented. They ignored commands and warnings directly from the mouth of God. They were just as incapable of doing what God required as scripture says we are. God had to draw them to do what is right, just like He has to draw us to do what is right.
 

atpollard

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Sounds like I'm Arminian...although I'll bet there's more to it than that...maybe...
and I might not agree with all, but from what you posted...Arminian it is.
First, people make WAY too big a deal about Calvinism vs Arminianism. It is fun to try and understand from scripture whether people are capable of making the first move or if God has to make the first move, but nobody ever lost salvation over misunderstanding how God does things. Salvation is still about Jesus Christ and not the "Order of Salvation". That said, a Classic Arminian would believe (more or less) what the early followers published in something called the Five Articles of Remonstrance (presented below). If you generally agree with what this teaches then you can call yourself a "Classic Arminian"

Five articles of Remonstrance
The Five articles of Remonstrance refers to the document drawn up in 1610 by the followers of Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609). A "remonstrance" is literally "an expression of opposition or protest," which in this case was a protest against the Calvinist doctrine of predestination contained in the Belgic Confession. Consequently, those followers of Arminius who drafted this protest were given the name "Remonstrants."


Article 1

That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also.


Article 2

That agreeably thereunto, Jesus Christ the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” And in the First Epistle of 1 John 2:2: “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”


Article 3

That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me ye can do nothing.”


Article 4

That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awakening, following and cooperative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements, that can be conceived, must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. but respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible; inasmuch as it is written concerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Ghost. Acts 7, and elsewhere in many places.


Article 5

That those who are incorporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, and desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of becoming devoid of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full persuasion of our mind.
 

atpollard

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John Wesley (1703-1791) came along and shook up Arminianism with some new ideas on Grace that became known as Wesleyan Arminianism and started the Holiness Movement and the Methodist Church and led to the Church of God. So if this sounds better to you than Classic Arminianism, then you can call yourself a Wesleyan Arminian ...

John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist movement, described God’s grace as threefold:

  • prevenient grace
  • justifying grace
  • sanctifying grace
Prevenient Grace
Wesley understood grace as God’s active presence in our lives. This presence is not dependent on human actions or human response. It is a gift — a gift that is always available, but that can be refused.

God’s grace stirs up within us a desire to know God and empowers us to respond to God’s invitation to be in relationship with God. God’s grace enables us to discern differences between good and evil and makes it possible for us to choose good….

God takes the initiative in relating to humanity. We do not have to beg and plead for God’s love and grace. God actively seeks us!

Justifying Grace
Paul wrote to the church in Corinth: “In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them” (2 Corinthians 5:19). And in his letter to the Roman Christians, Paul wrote: “But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).

These verses demonstrate the justifying grace of God. They point to reconciliation, pardon, and restoration. Through the work of God in Christ our sins are forgiven, and our relationship with God is restored. According to John Wesley, founder of the Methodist movement, the image of God — which has been distorted by sin — is renewed within us through Christ’s death.

Again, this dimension of God’s grace is a gift. God’s grace alone brings us into relationship with God. There are no hoops through which we have to jump in order to please God and to be loved by God. God has acted in Jesus Christ. We need only to respond in faith.

Conversion
This process of salvation involves a change in us that we call conversion. Conversion is a turning around, leaving one orientation for another. It may be sudden and dramatic, or gradual and cumulative. But in any case, it’s a new beginning. Following Jesus’ words to Nicodemus, “You must be born anew” (John 3:7 RSV), we speak of this conversion as rebirth, new life in Christ, or regeneration.

Following Paul and Luther, John Wesley called this process justification. Justification is what happens when Christians abandon all those vain attempts to justify themselves before God, to be seen as “just” in God’s eyes through religious and moral practices. It’s a time when God’s “justifying grace” is experienced and accepted, a time of pardon and forgiveness, of new peace and joy and love. Indeed, we’re justified by God’s grace through faith.

Justification is also a time of repentance — turning away from behaviors rooted in sin and toward actions that express God’s love. In this conversion we can expect to receive assurance of our present salvation through the Holy Spirit “bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God” (Romans 8:16).

Sanctifying Grace
Salvation is not a static, one-time event in our lives. It is the ongoing experience of God’s gracious presence transforming us into whom God intends us to be. John Wesley described this dimension of God’s grace as sanctification, or holiness.

Through God’s sanctifying grace, we grow and mature in our ability to live as Jesus lived. As we pray, study the Scriptures, fast, worship, and share in fellowship with other Christians, we deepen our knowledge of and love for God. As we respond with compassion to human need and work for justice in our communities, we strengthen our capacity to love neighbor. Our inner thoughts and motives, as well as our outer actions and behavior, are aligned with God’s will and testify to our union with God.

We’re to press on, with God’s help, in the path of sanctification toward perfection. By perfection, Wesley did not mean that we would not make mistakes or have weaknesses. Rather, he understood it to be a continual process of being made perfect in our love of God and each other and of removing our desire to sin.
 

atpollard

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Just for the sake of completeness, here are the 5 points of Calvinism (the famous TULIP) from CARM:

  1. Total Depravity - Man is completely touched/affected by sin in all that he is (in nature he is completely fallen), but is not as bad as he could be (in action, i.e., not all murder, etc.). Furthermore, this total depravity means that the unregenerate will not, of their own free will, choose to receive Christ.
    1. It is the unbeliever who is deceitful and wicked (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), loves darkness rather than light and does evil (John 3:19), does not seek for God nor does any good (Rom. 3:10-12), is ungodly (Rom. 5:6), dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1), by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), cannot accept or understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), and a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

  2. Unconditional Election - God elects a person based upon nothing in that person because there is nothing in him that would make him worthy of being chosen; rather, God's election is based on what is in God. God chose us because he decided to bestow his love and grace upon us, not because we are worthy, in and of ourselves, of being saved.
    1. Election is the sovereign act of God where, from before the foundation of the world, he chose those whom he would save (Eph. 1:4). This election to salvation is not conditioned upon any foreseen faith (Rom. 9:16) or good works of any individual (Rom. 9:11; 2 Tim. 1:9). The election is based completely on God's sovereign choice according to the kind intention of his will (Eph. 1:11). God chose the elect because he decided to bestow his love upon them (John 3:16; Eph. 2:4) based solely on his sovereign grace (Gal. 1:15) and for his glory (Isaiah 43:7).

  3. Limited Atonement - Christ bore the sin only of the elect, not everyone who ever lived.
    1. Christ's blood was sufficient for all, but not all sin was imputed to Christ. Christ's blood is sufficient to cover all people. But the sufficiency relates to his divine value which is different than our legal debt. Sin is a debt (Matt. 6:12 with Luke 11:4) since it is breaking the Law of God (1 John 3:4). In limited atonement, Calvinists are saying that there was a limit to whose sins were imputed to Christ in a legal sense. They are not denying the sufficiency of Christ's blood to cover all people. Instead, they look at the legal aspect of the sin debt. Peoples' sin debts were transferred to Jesus (1 Pet. 2:24) and were canceled on the cross, not when we believe (Col. 2:14). Therefore, legally speaking, those canceled sins cannot be held against the sinner because their quality of being a debt has been canceled by being paid on the cross (John 19:30; Col. 2:14). If the debt is canceled, it does not exist and cannot be held against the debtor/sinner. Therefore, Christ only legally bore the sins of the elect even though his blood was sufficient to cover all. Also, consider 1 Sam. 3:14 which says, "Therefore I have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli’s house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever."

  4. Irresistible Grace - The term, unfortunately, suggests a mechanical and coercive force upon an unwilling subject. This is not the case. Instead, it is the act of God making the person willing to receive him. It does not mean that a person cannot resist God's will. It means that when God moves to the save/regenerate a person, the sinner cannot thwart God's movement and he will be regenerated
    1. God moves the heart of the person where he wishes it to go (Proverbs 21:1). The choice and mercy of God depend on God's desire, not man's ability (Romans 9:18).

  5. Perseverance of the Saints - That we are so secure in Christ, that we cannot fall away.
    1. Jesus will not lose any who had been given to him by the Father (John 6:38-39); he get eternal life to them so they will never perish (John 3:16; 10:27-28), and those who leave the faith whenever believers to begin with (1 John 2:19).

In the unlikely event that you find that you agree with all of this, then you can call yourself a Calvinist. :)
 
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GodsGrace

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First, people make WAY too big a deal about Calvinism vs Arminianism. It is fun to try and understand from scripture whether people are capable of making the first move or if God has to make the first move, but nobody ever lost salvation over misunderstanding how God does things. Salvation is still about Jesus Christ and not the "Order of Salvation". That said, a Classic Arminian would believe (more or less) what the early followers published in something called the Five Articles of Remonstrance (presented below). If you generally agree with what this teaches then you can call yourself a "Classic Arminian"

Five articles of Remonstrance
The Five articles of Remonstrance refers to the document drawn up in 1610 by the followers of Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609). A "remonstrance" is literally "an expression of opposition or protest," which in this case was a protest against the Calvinist doctrine of predestination contained in the Belgic Confession. Consequently, those followers of Arminius who drafted this protest were given the name "Remonstrants."


Article 1

That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also.

This sounds right to me.

Article 2

That agreeably thereunto, Jesus Christ the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” And in the First Epistle of 1 John 2:2: “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

This sounds slightly universalist, but it does state a condition: Belief in Christ...
So, again, sounds good.


Article 3

That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me ye can do nothing.”

Agreed.

Article 4

That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awakening, following and cooperative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements, that can be conceived, must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. but respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible; inasmuch as it is written concerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Ghost. Acts 7, and elsewhere in many places.

Agreed.
I do believe that God does reveal Himself to all but some do not accept Him.


Article 5

That those who are incorporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, and desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of becoming devoid of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full persuasion of our mind.
The first part sounds like we could be perfect.
The second part has to do with eternal security and, indeed, the debate has been raging forever,,,even before Jesus was born.

I'm not sure I agree with Article 5.


Now, I'd like to get to your 2nd post, which I had no time for today.
 

GodsGrace

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John Wesley (1703-1791) came along and shook up Arminianism with some new ideas on Grace that became known as Wesleyan Arminianism and started the Holiness Movement and the Methodist Church and led to the Church of God. So if this sounds better to you than Classic Arminianism, then you can call yourself a Wesleyan Arminian ...

John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist movement, described God’s grace as threefold:

  • prevenient grace
  • justifying grace
  • sanctifying grace
Prevenient Grace
Wesley understood grace as God’s active presence in our lives. This presence is not dependent on human actions or human response. It is a gift — a gift that is always available, but that can be refused.

God’s grace stirs up within us a desire to know God and empowers us to respond to God’s invitation to be in relationship with God. God’s grace enables us to discern differences between good and evil and makes it possible for us to choose good….

God takes the initiative in relating to humanity. We do not have to beg and plead for God’s love and grace. God actively seeks us!

Justifying Grace
Paul wrote to the church in Corinth: “In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them” (2 Corinthians 5:19). And in his letter to the Roman Christians, Paul wrote: “But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).

These verses demonstrate the justifying grace of God. They point to reconciliation, pardon, and restoration. Through the work of God in Christ our sins are forgiven, and our relationship with God is restored. According to John Wesley, founder of the Methodist movement, the image of God — which has been distorted by sin — is renewed within us through Christ’s death.

Again, this dimension of God’s grace is a gift. God’s grace alone brings us into relationship with God. There are no hoops through which we have to jump in order to please God and to be loved by God. God has acted in Jesus Christ. We need only to respond in faith.

Conversion
This process of salvation involves a change in us that we call conversion. Conversion is a turning around, leaving one orientation for another. It may be sudden and dramatic, or gradual and cumulative. But in any case, it’s a new beginning. Following Jesus’ words to Nicodemus, “You must be born anew” (John 3:7 RSV), we speak of this conversion as rebirth, new life in Christ, or regeneration.

Following Paul and Luther, John Wesley called this process justification. Justification is what happens when Christians abandon all those vain attempts to justify themselves before God, to be seen as “just” in God’s eyes through religious and moral practices. It’s a time when God’s “justifying grace” is experienced and accepted, a time of pardon and forgiveness, of new peace and joy and love. Indeed, we’re justified by God’s grace through faith.

Justification is also a time of repentance — turning away from behaviors rooted in sin and toward actions that express God’s love. In this conversion we can expect to receive assurance of our present salvation through the Holy Spirit “bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God” (Romans 8:16).

Sanctifying Grace
Salvation is not a static, one-time event in our lives. It is the ongoing experience of God’s gracious presence transforming us into whom God intends us to be. John Wesley described this dimension of God’s grace as sanctification, or holiness.

Through God’s sanctifying grace, we grow and mature in our ability to live as Jesus lived. As we pray, study the Scriptures, fast, worship, and share in fellowship with other Christians, we deepen our knowledge of and love for God. As we respond with compassion to human need and work for justice in our communities, we strengthen our capacity to love neighbor. Our inner thoughts and motives, as well as our outer actions and behavior, are aligned with God’s will and testify to our union with God.

We’re to press on, with God’s help, in the path of sanctification toward perfection. By perfection, Wesley did not mean that we would not make mistakes or have weaknesses. Rather, he understood it to be a continual process of being made perfect in our love of God and each other and of removing our desire to sin.
I agree with the above, except that I know that J Wesley believed the attainment of perfection was possible in this life. I attended a Nazarene church for about 10 years and this is what they taught. I understand that they have softened this stance somewhat and state what the above says...that it's an ongoing journey where we could become better and better but it's not believed anymore that we could become perfect.
I do agree with this.

I didn't read the link, (page not found) but by mistakes and/or weaknesses they meant that it was NOT SIN. I never agreed with this. This was so it could be said that a MISTAKE was made but the person did not sin. This is wrong...and a different discussion. (this would get into..what is a sin).
 

GodsGrace

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Just for the sake of completeness, here are the 5 points of Calvinism (the famous TULIP) from CARM:

  1. Total Depravity - Man is completely touched/affected by sin in all that he is (in nature he is completely fallen), but is not as bad as he could be (in action, i.e., not all murder, etc.). Furthermore, this total depravity means that the unregenerate will not, of their own free will, choose to receive Christ.
    1. It is the unbeliever who is deceitful and wicked (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), loves darkness rather than light and does evil (John 3:19), does not seek for God nor does any good (Rom. 3:10-12), is ungodly (Rom. 5:6), dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1), by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), cannot accept or understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), and a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

  2. Unconditional Election - God elects a person based upon nothing in that person because there is nothing in him that would make him worthy of being chosen; rather, God's election is based on what is in God. God chose us because he decided to bestow his love and grace upon us, not because we are worthy, in and of ourselves, of being saved.
    1. Election is the sovereign act of God where, from before the foundation of the world, he chose those whom he would save (Eph. 1:4). This election to salvation is not conditioned upon any foreseen faith (Rom. 9:16) or good works of any individual (Rom. 9:11; 2 Tim. 1:9). The election is based completely on God's sovereign choice according to the kind intention of his will (Eph. 1:11). God chose the elect because he decided to bestow his love upon them (John 3:16; Eph. 2:4) based solely on his sovereign grace (Gal. 1:15) and for his glory (Isaiah 43:7).

  3. Limited Atonement - Christ bore the sin only of the elect, not everyone who ever lived.
    1. Christ's blood was sufficient for all, but not all sin was imputed to Christ. Christ's blood is sufficient to cover all people. But the sufficiency relates to his divine value which is different than our legal debt. Sin is a debt (Matt. 6:12 with Luke 11:4) since it is breaking the Law of God (1 John 3:4). In limited atonement, Calvinists are saying that there was a limit to whose sins were imputed to Christ in a legal sense. They are not denying the sufficiency of Christ's blood to cover all people. Instead, they look at the legal aspect of the sin debt. Peoples' sin debts were transferred to Jesus (1 Pet. 2:24) and were canceled on the cross, not when we believe (Col. 2:14). Therefore, legally speaking, those canceled sins cannot be held against the sinner because their quality of being a debt has been canceled by being paid on the cross (John 19:30; Col. 2:14). If the debt is canceled, it does not exist and cannot be held against the debtor/sinner. Therefore, Christ only legally bore the sins of the elect even though his blood was sufficient to cover all. Also, consider 1 Sam. 3:14 which says, "Therefore I have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli’s house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever."

  4. Irresistible Grace - The term, unfortunately, suggests a mechanical and coercive force upon an unwilling subject. This is not the case. Instead, it is the act of God making the person willing to receive him. It does not mean that a person cannot resist God's will. It means that when God moves to the save/regenerate a person, the sinner cannot thwart God's movement and he will be regenerated
    1. God moves the heart of the person where he wishes it to go (Proverbs 21:1). The choice and mercy of God depend on God's desire, not man's ability (Romans 9:18).

  5. Perseverance of the Saints - That we are so secure in Christ, that we cannot fall away.
    1. Jesus will not lose any who had been given to him by the Father (John 6:38-39); he get eternal life to them so they will never perish (John 3:16; 10:27-28), and those who leave the faith whenever believers to begin with (1 John 2:19).

In the unlikely event that you find that you agree with all of this, then you can call yourself a Calvinist. :)
LOL
The VERY UNLIKELY event!
I don't understand how anyone could agree with determinism.
(I knew the above).