The only question that matters

(Jordan;63715)
Well, the fact is there will be divisions whether we like it or not.Luke 12:51 - Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: Divisions comes when one highly disagree with God's Words. Not by some man's words. And you love to run your mouth accusing people of a as you call it a KJVO-Only movement. I just think you have a problem with a God-Only Movement. Because it seems and appears to me that God's Words alone is not enough for you and needs some man's interpretation along with it.
Ahhhh... when pressed, the nastiness quickly rises to the surface.So I'm going to ask you YET AGAIN. What "traditions of men" or "man's interpretation" am I employing?Why not just get off your high horse and admit that you've been recklessly throwing around accusations that you CANNOT prove.

(Jordan;63715)
Well, the fact is there will be divisions whether we like it or not.Luke 12:51 - Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: Divisions comes when one highly disagree with God's Words. Not by some man's words. And you love to run your mouth accusing people of a as you call it a KJVO-Only movement. I just think you have a problem with a God-Only Movement. Because it seems and appears to me that God's Words alone is not enough for you and needs some man's interpretation along with it.
First of all, you are COMPLETELY twisting, perverting and misapplying the words of Jesus. I also find it interesting that you completely ignore and blow off the words of the apostle Paul, in Ephesians 4. Very selective belief-system there! Second, you are wrong about what causes divisions in churches. VERY RARELY does it have ANYTHING to do with doctrine. It is almost always (and I'll go so far as to say over 95% of the time) about PRIDE. Pride is why you refuse to be part of a local church family.

(ffbruce;63716)
(Jordan;63715)
Well, the fact is there will be divisions whether we like it or not.Luke 12:51 - Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: Divisions comes when one highly disagree with God's Words. Not by some man's words. And you love to run your mouth accusing people of a as you call it a KJVO-Only movement. I just think you have a problem with a God-Only Movement. Because it seems and appears to me that God's Words alone is not enough for you and needs some man's interpretation along with it.
Ahhhh... when pressed, the nastiness quickly rises to the surface.So I'm going to ask you YET AGAIN. What "traditions of men" or "man's interpretation" am I employing?Why not just get off your high horse and admit that you've been recklessly throwing around accusations that you CANNOT prove.Accusations? No! I haven't even said a word about your church. I only said we should listen to people words whether they are of God or not. (Matthew 7:15, Matthew 7:16-20, I John 4:1) Because you never yet to me says what your church beliefs, so I have no need to accuse.(ffbruce;63717)
First of all, you are COMPLETELY twisting, perverting and misapplying the words of Jesus. I also find it interesting that you completely ignore and blow off the words of the apostle Paul, in Ephesians 4. Very selective belief-system there! Second, you are wrong about what causes divisions in churches. VERY RARELY does it have ANYTHING to do with doctrine. It is almost always (and I'll go so far as to say over 95% of the time) about PRIDE. Pride is why you refuse to be part of a local church family.
So I should go to church that preaches the tradition of men and sit there with their lies to please God to worship Him in vain?Colossians 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.Do I seek to please men or God? (Galatians 1:10)

(Jordan;63719)
Accusations? No! I haven't even said a word about your church. I only said we should listen to people words whether they are of God or not. (Matthrew 7:15, Matthew 7:16-20, I John 4:1) Because you never yet to me says what your church beliefs, so I have no need to accuse.So I should go to church that preaches the tradition of men and sit there with their lies to please God to worship Him in vain?Colossians 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.Do I seek to please men or God? (Galatians 1:10)
You're back-peddling now. Re-read your posts. You throw out accusations and inflammatory rhetoric like it's going out of style. Huge fonts and fancy colors cannot hide them.And as for your constant accusation of churches "preaching the traditions of men", I'd challenge you to name some of those things - specifically - and by name. I'd venture a guess that it's all bluff and blow. Nothing more than an excuse for you to not go to church.But again, everything you are writing validates what I said in my original post on this thread. You seem to be the epitome of the people who claim to be Christians yet refuse to be part of a church family.Now, yet again... Why don't you explain to me why you are so relentless and aggressive in disobeying the explicit instruction of Ephesians 4.

(ffbruce;63720)
(Jordan;63719)
Accusations? No! I haven't even said a word about your church. I only said we should listen to people words whether they are of God or not. (Matthew 7:15, Matthew 7:16-20, I John 4:1) Because you never yet to me says what your church beliefs, so I have no need to accuse.So I should go to church that preaches the tradition of men and sit there with their lies to please God to worship Him in vain?Colossians 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.Do I seek to please men or God? (Galatians 1:10)
You're back-peddling now. Re-read your posts. You throw out accusations and inflammatory rhetoric like it's going out of style. Huge fonts and fancy colors cannot hide them.And as for your constant accusation of churches "preaching the traditions of men", I'd challenge you to name some of those things - specifically - and by name. I'd venture a guess that it's all bluff and blow. Nothing more than an excuse for you to not go to church.But again, everything you are writing validates what I said in my original post on this thread. You seem to be the epitome of the people who claim to be Christians yet refuse to be part of a church family.Now, yet again... Why don't you explain to me why you are so relentless and aggressive in disobeying the explicit instruction of Ephesians 4.1. I went to THREE churches. They are Catholic church which a person told me NOT to bring my bible.2. I went to some Rock & Roll church, that preaches 4 verses and sings Christ. Nobody brought their bibles like #1 did.3. I went to a Pentecostal church and preached that I needed to speak in tongues in order to be saved.Once again, do I seek to please man or God? (Galatians 1:10)Colossians 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.Mark 7:7-8 - Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.Starting to get familiar now doesn't it?

(Jordan;63723)
1. I went to THREE churches. They are Catholic church which a person told me NOT to bring my bible.2. I went to some Rock & Roll church, that preaches 4 verses and sings Christ. Nobody brought their bibles like #1 did.3. I went to a Pentecostal church and preached that I needed to speak in tongues in order to be saved.Once again, do I seek to please man or God? (Galatians 1:10)Colossians 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.Mark 7:7-8 - Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.Starting to get familiar now doesn't it?
Ahhh... So you went to THREE churches, and somehow believe that they are representative of EVERY church! Gotcha. But it's clear that you went to three church EXPECTING to find things wrong, EXPECTING to find things that you - from your own narrow viewpoint - disagree with. And guess what? In all THREE church, you found EXACTLY what you were looking for. You found a way to feel like you're better than the other people who were there, and you found an excuse not to be there.Unfortunately, for your case, you STILL have not elaborated on one man-made doctrine or teaching. You have simply confessed something - and that is that you wanted to find fault, find something wrong - and you succeeded.Has it every occurred to you that you yourself might be in err? Do you think it's possible that if you walk into a church building, you are not perfection entering imperfection? Is it possible that you're looking at all the wrong things?The sad truth is that you have found EXACTLY what you WANTED to find in each of these 3 churches. And in so doing, you have full-frontally violated the explicit teachings of Paul in Ephesians 4. There's no way around it. Congratulations.

(Swamp Fox;63728)
Now that is quite the prideful statement from someone who likes to lecture many of the other members here on the same topic. I can understand if you feel that Christians that attend church are somehow "better" than those who do not. However, I cannot for the life of me understand how you have the judgment to declare someone "growing and dynamic in their faith" because the Bible surely preaches against that.If you feel someone is wrong, again, fine. However, to place yourself in a seat of judgment as to how Christian someone is clearly violates what is said several times in the Bible.Matthew 7:1Luke 6:37Would be glad to quote others. I stepped in here because you're judging Jordan not knowing a whole lot about the situation. This is why I thank God every day that he is the only and only judge, because topics like this are why men are not fit to judge one single bit.I Corinthians 4:5If you see a false doctrine, call it like you see it. I believe in that, 100%. However, do not play the role of a hypocrite in passing judgment on others while you lecture them about pride.Luke 12:51And our Lord Christ told us that there would be division. Striving for unification should be a task every Christian should do, but even the verse you quote is conditional, quite clearly. It's unity in the Spirit, and when someone preaches/espouses the wrong doctrine, you go with the right doctrine regardless of agreement.As in this case, you're invoking a verse about this site (and many members here) which believe the Rapture doctrine of flying away at any moment to be not only false, but deliberately misleading to lead away the sheep. The Bible never tells us to agree with the majority, or to follow false doctrine because of "unity."So please refrain from calling some out for the exact thing you do.
I'm judging? Hmmmm... Interesting.Why not actually respond to what I've actually been writing? NOWHERE have I said that church-attenders are "better". That is your own defense mechanism kicking in.I'm calling somebody out on his accusations of all churches teaching "traditions of men" and "lies of Satan." I'm also calling out the people who directly violate the clear teaching of Ephesians 4, by LOOKING FOR FAULT in churches - and doing so as an excuse for not being part of one.And yes, I'm going to stand by my original statement that I do not personally know anybody who is both growing and dynamic in their faith, yet refuses to be a part of a local church family. I've seen many such people who pride themselves in sitting back, criticizing and finding fault (an extremely easy and very fallen human thing to do) with churches, but I've not seen the vibrant Christian do any such thing. Nothing in this thread has shown me anything different. There has been a rather angry "circling of the wagons" by those who refuse to be part of a church family, but there's no evidence of the growing, passionate, fruit-laden Christian walk. And yes, contrary to what you assert, there absolutely IS evidence of a vibrant, faith-filled walk in Christ! That evidence is repeatedly shown and spoken of in Scripture.

(Swamp Fox;63732)
I rest my case. I'm simply not interested in a back-and-forth I'm not, yes you are argument. Is there for folks to see and make the call as they see fit. I think it's rather obvious at this point. Hiding behind language won't help you there.And again, you're making a judgment call, particularly without knowing the situation.At this point, it's probably hopeless for me to continue on. I just hope people will keep my previous posts in mind (amongst the others here). One can be Christian outside of a church building and Christ is pretty specific on the simple membership requirements:John 3:16
Again, all you did was showed that your claim against me was wrong.Beyond that, don't put words in my mouth - claiming I'm saying a person cannot be a Christian outside a church "building". That is another falsehood.I am also saying that there IS (contrary to what you claimed) clear evidence of a vibrant, growing Christian faith. So rather than just criticize me, prove me wrong on that one!If this forum is really a "Christians who are too good to go to church" forum, that's fine, in that that is what it is. But that doesn't mean it's right or healthy. God did not send us a text message or set up a chat room. He took on flesh, became incarnate, a person. He came to fellowship with mankind. And we think we can improve on the situation.

(Swamp Fox;63738)
Likewise. Never said you did, my comment was a clear reference to those that maintain that Hebrews 10 talks specifically about church. Didn't mention your name once there, so don't try and make it about you. See:http://www.christianityboard.com/showpost....51&postcount=10Excuse me, but where the heck did I claim that? I think you're mistaken because you're claiming somehow that we all believe all churches are evil when I attend one myself. Yet another red herring in your argument. That practice is getting old, quick.We have members and staff that do both, so quit trying to make it more than it is.And so back to square one - my point, and others although I cannot clearly speak for everyone - is that fellowship is not necessarily church. Church is fellowship, but fellowship can be had in different environments. My beliefs and arguments are the same here on CB as if I were standing beside you in public or in church.In fact, I'd rather easily argue that God would desire us to use a tool which can reach thousands a month (or more). Some of those people may never get to church. Does that make them "less vibrant" as a Christian...you've pretty much told us that suggesting you've never seen anyone that meets your criteria outside of church.
MY criteria? Who are you trying to kid here?So we've been resolutely ignoring the clear meaning of Hebrews 10:25, and some are in flagrant disobedience to the clear teaching of Ephesians 4. And now we're going to try to act like Galatians 5:22-26 is merely "my criteria"?You're not getting by with that one, my friend!

Psalm 40:7 "Then said I, "Lo, I come: In the volume of the book it is written of me,"From cover to cover, the entire Word of God reflects the coming of the promised Messiah, Jesus Christ. Whatever you need to know about Christ is written within these pages. Our Heavenly Father hid nothing from those that want to study His book, and know all there is to know about the Messiah Jesus Christ. If you don't have Christ's thoughts and instruction through His Word, then how are you going to know what is required to please Him? Psalm 40:8 "I delight to do Thy will, O my God: Yea, Thy law is within my heart."Hebrews 10:7 "Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of Me) to do Thy will, O God."Everything that Jesus did and said while on earth, was written in the Old Testament, and that why He said over and over, "Haven't you read...", "It is written...", and so on. Every detail was written about Jesus' coming, how His birth would be and where. All parts of His life, and even to the words that the High Priest that caused His death at the time of the crucifixion. How can you not believe in Christ when God so perfectly outlined the coming Messiah that He would send.Hebrews 10:11 "And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:"Regardless how many times those priest stood at that altar, and presented their offerings and sacrifices, it just did not get the job done. Sin remained, and was covered over for only that one year. However after Jesus was sacrifice and the Holy Spirit came, His Spirit can make you a better person when you learn to listen to Him through the Word. Your salvation your truth is found in the Lord and in the book not in church not from priest, not from ministers just as the pharasees who held stickly to the Law and their traditions and fell by the wayside so will those who put their faith in men put their church before Gods truth in his word. Argue all you like but I tell you. your church will not stand before you and God on judgement day. If it teaches you nothing but milk God is going to say I wrote you a book a letter did you read it. Church doesnt save people God does. If your church is so important attend it no one says different. But you have NO right to pass judgement on one who goes to the Word and choses God's teaching rather than priest mininsters and churches,In fact they are the first Judged for leading Gods sheep astray.Jer 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away [on] the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace. The shepards are our teachers church leaders

...and who is first judged for leading sheep astray on internet forums?I continue to find it rather said - and very telling - that the very people who are so hyper critical of churches, are the first ones to be offended, and get extremely angry, when the same criteria is pointed back their way. You church bashers need to knock of this ignorant nonsense of accusing churches of teaching "satan's lies" and "traditions of men instead of the word of God." And if you will not knock off the arm-chair criticizing, don't be so thin-skinned when somebody calls you out on it!In addition, NOBODY has yet been able to explain away the flagrant disobedience to Ephesians 4 that is going on here - nor the ignoring of the clear New Testament teaching that the Christians assembled together for worship, edification, education and fellowship. Hebrews 10:25 only serves to put an exclamation point on it all. I am also waiting, having asked several times, for clear evidence of these "false teachings of men" that our anti-church people here keep claiming. What are they? Where are they? Sound bytes don't cut it.My original point has been validated repeatedly on this thread.

Those who listen to men over God preach mens lies over Gods Word. Everything should be checked against Gods Word. Thats why we have the Book I come: In the volume of the book it is written of me,"

(Christina;63775)
Those who listen to men over God preach mens lies over Gods Word. Everything should be checked against Gods Word. Thats why we have the Book I come: In the volume of the book it is written of me,"
One more time, I'm going to ask: WHAT ARE THESE FALSE LIES BEING TAUGHT IN ALL THE CHURCHES AROUND THE GLOBE?You folks keep repeating the same mantra, but you've presented no basis or evidence for it.

(Swamp Fox;63776)
There's nothing to get by with. You continue to bring up verses that mention groups and assemblies and spout out this nonsense suggesting "Thou shalt go to church." which is clearly not the sole focuses of these verses. Furthermore, you continue to alledge that anyone who says anything against what you say is a "church basher."You keep speaking against stife, but you continue to instigate it with those who don't agree with your Scriptual view. It's not enough to disagree, you must pervert and distort what they say about some to mean all. That's the pure nonsense here, and folks are seeing through your charade.
Prove me wrong Scripturally.And while you're at it, why not explain why the anti-church folks here are living in flagrant disobedience to Ephesians 4.All I've heard is "I hate going to church" and "they teach the lies of Satan there" and "they follow the traditions of men." But no concrete proof is given for any of these absurd accusations. Nothing but repeating the same old sound bytes. We've got one guy who has only ever been to 3 churches, but has concluded that he knows what is taught and lived in ALL churches. THAT is absurd! I think it's high time for the anti-church folks here to step up to the plate and give account for their attitudes and actions. That is all.

(ffbruce;63777)
One more time, I'm going to ask: WHAT ARE THESE FALSE LIES BEING TAUGHT IN ALL THE CHURCHES AROUND THE GLOBE?You folks keep repeating the same mantra, but you've presented no basis or evidence for it.
Why dont you just tell us your church and denomination and we can make specific for you personally.