If all of the Church is the Bride of Christ who are the guests?
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So let's not start putting limitations of things which God has not limited.[/QUOTE]
I like this point, and it's true that we are the ones with the limitations, while God will do as He pleases. I just wanted to point out that some people don't want to be kings. I don't. I don't want to rule over anyone or make judgments about their lives and destinies, or be the person responsible for their welfare. God is very good at such things and I'm inclined to believe that He doesn't need my help. I realize that this is considered a reward to some people, perhaps most people, but it seems like more of a burden. Servant leadership is hard, thankless, draining, tiresome to the extreme. God renews vigor, gives strength for the tasks at hand, refreshes by His Spirit, but it is all so much toil. My reading of scripture suggests to me that the ultimate reward is to be with the Lord in His temple, to never have to go out again, though I'm not sure that I'd be satisfied with that either. Perhaps I'd feel differently in a body without sin, but in this body I've enjoyed travel, and seeing new things, experiencing life in a world that seems to be growing increasingly darker. Being a messenger isn't so bad, but sometimes the messengers take the heat for an unpopular message. It's hard to imagine what the millennial kingdom will be like, but I know what people are like and its hard to imagine them as anything but rebellious, unruly, and difficult.
I like this point, and it's true that we are the ones with the limitations, while God will do as He pleases. I just wanted to point out that some people don't want to be kings. I don't. I don't want to rule over anyone or make judgments about their lives and destinies, or be the person responsible for their welfare. God is very good at such things and I'm inclined to believe that He doesn't need my help. I realize that this is considered a reward to some people, perhaps most people, but it seems like more of a burden. Servant leadership is hard, thankless, draining, tiresome to the extreme. God renews vigor, gives strength for the tasks at hand, refreshes by His Spirit, but it is all so much toil. My reading of scripture suggests to me that the ultimate reward is to be with the Lord in His temple, to never have to go out again, though I'm not sure that I'd be satisfied with that either. Perhaps I'd feel differently in a body without sin, but in this body I've enjoyed travel, and seeing new things, experiencing life in a world that seems to be growing increasingly darker. Being a messenger isn't so bad, but sometimes the messengers take the heat for an unpopular message. It's hard to imagine what the millennial kingdom will be like, but I know what people are like and its hard to imagine them as anything but rebellious, unruly, and difficult.
DoveSpirit05
Active Member
Davy
Well-Known Member
If you actually read what all I suggested then you would have understood about the Ezekiel 16 analogy of God having married Jerusalem, but she became a harlot.
Same thing with the analogy in Isaiah 54 and Luke 23, you would have understood how the virgin and bride metaphor applied to Christ's Church is given as a warning against falling away, and it's not applied just to God's people, but especially applied to Jerusalem in that chapter. And in final comparison, you would have admitted that Jerusalem is the REAL Bride and Wife of Christ as written in Revelation. All I can say, is that maybe you think I'm Jewish or something, and am pushing some Jewish theology against Christ's Church. Of course you'd be totally wrong in that kind of thinking.
Philip James
Well-Known Member
And we are Jerusalem!
And..
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Let the hearer say, "Come." Let the one who thirsts come forward, and the one who wants it receive the gift of life-giving water
Peace be with you!
I believe the original Israel, the 144,000 thousand are the Bride of Christ. The multitude shown in Revelation are the guests. They are said to be of all nations while the 144,000 of Israel. No?
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
You can make that 288,000 if divided into male and female. The "virgins" are said to be "male" -- an odd expression since nowhere else in the New Testament does the word "virgin" mean a man; so I think it signifies 144,000 souls that are neither male nor female but both -- or 288,000 if counted as males and females.
The number 288 is found in Genesis 1:2 by the way in the word "moved."
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved <288> upon the face of the waters.
These are the original elect ones, with Jesus from the beginning. Many had been added by the time of Moses, becoming elect, with the number of males given as 600,000. Those were Gentiles who had been added on. The original elect however remain special. This is the Israel that Paul says must all be saved, not one can be lost. Amos says so too.
Amos 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
Who knows where they are, who they are? God knows. I can judge myself however. I'm pretty sure I'm not one of the 144,000. I'm a guest.
We see the same lesson laid forth in the Sermon on the Mount when Jesus was talking to his disciples. Speaking to Jews, he said:
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
The same day he talked about "many." When he came down from the mountain, he saw a Gentile and said:
Matthew 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
No?
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
You can make that 288,000 if divided into male and female. The "virgins" are said to be "male" -- an odd expression since nowhere else in the New Testament does the word "virgin" mean a man; so I think it signifies 144,000 souls that are neither male nor female but both -- or 288,000 if counted as males and females.
The number 288 is found in Genesis 1:2 by the way in the word "moved."
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved <288> upon the face of the waters.
These are the original elect ones, with Jesus from the beginning. Many had been added by the time of Moses, becoming elect, with the number of males given as 600,000. Those were Gentiles who had been added on. The original elect however remain special. This is the Israel that Paul says must all be saved, not one can be lost. Amos says so too.
Amos 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
Who knows where they are, who they are? God knows. I can judge myself however. I'm pretty sure I'm not one of the 144,000. I'm a guest.
We see the same lesson laid forth in the Sermon on the Mount when Jesus was talking to his disciples. Speaking to Jews, he said:
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
The same day he talked about "many." When he came down from the mountain, he saw a Gentile and said:
Matthew 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
No?
Stop trying to decide what I believe or disbelieve... Stop pushing so hard to convince everyone that what you believe must be seen and believed by everyone else:
"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2
How important ultimately is the answer to the question I presented in the OP? Even if our doctrines differ can we not all have hearts that meet with God's approval?
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Davy
Well-Known Member
Can't really agree that 'we' are the new Jerusalem. Instead, that is a city that our Heavenly Father and His Son have prepared for those who love Him.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Your OP question involves exactly what I've been revealing from God's Holy Writ. What God's Holy Writ says is much, much more important than anything you could ever say.
This is what you stated earlier-
amadeus said:
"Possibly what we are looking for, [or should be], is a Bride that is taken out of the Church. Those left could then be properly invited guests. So then what would be the final result for the guest? Salvation? What would be the final result for the Bride? Hmmm?"
A group taken out of the Church? Who would that be? Can't be any group mentioned in God's Word, because there is NO group taken out of Christ's Church, ever. Those left??? That's the idea of a rapture, even though YOU LIE and say you're not talking about a rapture!
You're just another false one come here to spread lies and corruption of God's Word, either because you don't have a clue of what God's Word really says, or because you actually hate God's Word! Otherwise you wouldn't be so easy to catch deceiving believers on Christ on this forum.
Have you ever wondered if there could be other Holy Cities? Apostolic Foundations may signify something in Heaven as well as on earth. And the Rock that fell to earth is predicted to fill the earth. Maybe Jerusalem was completed in the First Century; and perhaps that's why the "Patriarchy of Jerusalem" went defunct.
I didn't think for a second Amadeus was talking about a rapture. Calm down please. Your own posts would easier to understand if you were calmer when writing.
The Word of God is certainly more important than anything coming from the heart of man walking in his carnality. With that I will agree. The thing is that only by the Holy Spirit can a man know what God is saying. A dead man reading the Bible won't know a thing.
I have no problem with what you have quoted from scripture, but rather with an attitude that at times is out of place. You should check in with God regularly lest you meet a lion on your way home [I Kings 13:24].
Why are you so quick to call someone a liar rather than to gently discuss differences or misunderstandings? What you say may be so but I have not called this taking a Bride out of the Church as a "rapture". However on this point consider these words written by Daniel:
"Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure." Dan 2:45
What if the mountain were the Church and the stone cut out of it were the Bride? You may have already made up your mind on these things, but I do ask you to sincerely consider it.
In any case you should ask God to help you control your tongue.
An accusation against someone who does not immediately declare for your side? My friend, I have been reading my Bibles along with prayer on a daily basis for many years. This is not to pat myself on the back. It just means I have learn and am continuing to learn to surrender to God all of the time...
What I desire is what, I believe, you and everyone else on this forum should desire... to walk along the highway of holiness as the Holy Spirit leads me. Of the many who really are striving to do this the knowledge they have varies according where they are with God and what His purpose is for them. Some people without a doubt stumble badly along the Way and some may only pretend to walk on it when other people are able to see them, but again... it would be best to gain control on your tongue:
"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:" Ecc 3:1
"... a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;" Ecc 3:7
"But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be." James 3:8-10
"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Matt 12:36-37
The key to a man's tongue is in his heart, which is why God looks to our hearts rather than to our doctrines. The heart can only be 'fixed' by the power of the Holy Spirit working in us... if we allow it. Consider that before you open your mouth in rebuking words or harsh criticisms... even when you believe your are right. After all, all of us here believe we are right.
Amadeus, I thought that I would comment on what you said quoted above. There are two passages that need to be considered in the Dan_2 prophecy of the statue, and they are: -
Daniel_2:34-35: - 34 You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
Daniel_2:44-45: - 44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. 45 Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold — the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this.
Daniel_2:44-45: - 44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. 45 Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold — the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this.
on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."
Now the "foundational" stone we are told becomes a great mountain, where the "mountain" is the "religion" (for want of a better word) that the disciples of Christ adopt within the "church" that Christ intends to build. The same term is used in the Old Testament end time prophecies, where God States that He will teach the Israelites that He gathers to Himself on the Mountain(s) of Israel, i.e. the concepts of being righteous before God, or to put it another way, the religion of Israel. In the Daniel_2 passage, God also stated that at the time that the foundational stone comes down out of heaven that He will in the days of those kings, which are crusted by the rock that comes down our of heaven, He will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed and this kingdom will not be eft to other people, but it will overcome the other kingdoms breaking them into pieces and consuming them.
If we do not see the metaphorical language used in the above, then we will not make much sense of what is being described in this prophecy or understand the timing of when the Rock will come down out of heaven.
I liked your expressed thoughts in the question that you raised, and the idea that the mountain is the Church etc. however I wonder if the intended meaning is simpler and more in line with what I am suggesting.
Shalom
Philip James
Well-Known Member
I would suggest rather, that the mountain has filled the Earth. And what else can this mountain be but Mt. Zion,
Jerusalem, the city of the living God?
As for other 'holy cities' , i know of none.
A multitude of neighbourhoods, houses, mansions, suburbs, trailer parks, tents and camp grounds but One city, one mountain, one people, one faith, one Lord of all, Jesus Christ, our saviour!
Peace be with you!
Thank you!
I am glad you picked up on both the "cut out of the mountain" and "becomes a great mountain". I see your point, but I still remain unsettled on the final conclusion of it.
One other thing I have heard from people is that the feet of the statue, the clay and iron which cannot be mixed are the Catholic and Protestant churches. This is not talking of every individual within those groups who really have found God but rather of the general organized groups and those who too blindly follow their leaders no matter how far astray that may lead them [into a ditch?] Crushed then they would be by the Bride [or Body] of Christ which was cut out of the general churches. This overlaps at least your suggestion and also provides food for thought, study and prayer.
Amen brother, I totally agree. Attitude makes for a good discussion, but some cannot allow others to believe differently to themselves, maybe another point of view causes them to feel insecure.
bless you.
PS agree that The Church, the Bride, The Overcomers and the Sons are all overlapping in the Kingdom structure.
Give God always the glory my friend and let Him lead us. Too people in too many church groups blindly follow their human leaders instead of seeking God and following His lead. Some apparently don't recognize that there is a difference:
"Jesus wept"
Wow, what a thought provoking question!
My first thought is that marriage is entering into a covenant relationship where two become as one.
We are called members of one body...the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12). We are also called adopted sons and daughters and joint heirs to the throne.
Then how can we marry Christ?
Maybe the Church is metaphorically speaking of His Covenant relationship.
The guest would be believers invited to witness this.
Wow, just a tough question. Will be seeking it further!
Thanks for sharing!
My first thought is that marriage is entering into a covenant relationship where two become as one.
We are called members of one body...the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12). We are also called adopted sons and daughters and joint heirs to the throne.
Then how can we marry Christ?
Maybe the Church is metaphorically speaking of His Covenant relationship.
The guest would be believers invited to witness this.
Wow, just a tough question. Will be seeking it further!
Thanks for sharing!
For myself, I would see a strong distinction between Israel and the church, 1 Corinthians 10.32.
Davy
Well-Known Member
I don't. I see God's Israel as ... Christ's Church. God scattered the ten tribes of Israel, and the majority of Jews were scattered also among the Gentiles. I believe the majority of both migrated to the west and became the Western Christian nations, fulfilling the Genesis 35 prophecy to Jacob that his seed would become "a nation, and a company of nations", and the prophecy in Genesis 48 that Ephraim's seed would become "a multitude of nations" and that also his brother Manasseh would become "great".
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