No Heaven if you don't mortify the deeds of the flesh

amadeus · Sep 4, 2019

Stan B said:
I think this all started with translators. who in a monotheistic culture which had been battling polytheism forever, were afraid to translate Scripture in any way that would incur the ire of the prevailing religious culture. I suppose you could say, they were being politically correct!

Yes, men have always doing this to the point today where many in church groups, who might have serious doubts, would not speak up because of the same fear described here:

"But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself.
These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue." John 9:21-22

Now instead Jews and synagogues, people it is fear of the adverse opinions of "friends, brothers and sisters and pastors". It really is more important for many people to be politically correct in "church" to retain their good standing there than it is to please God.

We should all remember what Jesus said here:

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matt 10:28

amadeus · Sep 4, 2019

Stan B said:
The Worldwide Church of God was a British-Israel cult headed up by Herbert W. Armstrong. I don't know if he believed it, but he taught Britain and the United States were the ten lost tribes of Israel. <giggle?>

Ah yes! I have heard of that belief before, but have never heard anyone argue in favor of it. They may have done so on this forum, but admittedly I do not read every post on this forum.

Stan B · Sep 4, 2019

amadeus said:
Ah yes! I have heard of that belief before, but have never heard anyone argue in favor of it. They may have done so on this forum, but admittedly I do not read every post on this forum.

Israeli genealogy has been studied extensively by Dr. Steven Benner, University of Florida, where he has been assembling DNA profiles of the various Tribes. The Levites were the easiest, and purest genetic DNA, but I haven't kept up with the project, so I don't know the current status.

Heart2Soul · Sep 4, 2019

07-07-07 said:
We cannot fulfill the lusts of the flesh and deceive ourselves in to believing that we will inherit God's Kingdom too.

Colossians 3
[5] Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
[6] For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
[7] In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
[8] But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
[9] Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
[10] And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

How about dealing with what's in your heart first? When our heart is pure then our actions will reflect it

justbyfaith · Sep 4, 2019

Heart2Soul said:
How about dealing with what's in your heart first? When our heart is pure then our actions will reflect it

Our actions will definitely reflect it in the mortification of the deeds of the body.

Heart2Soul · Sep 4, 2019

justbyfaith said:
Our actions will definitely reflect it in the mortification of the deeds of the body.

Yes, but my point is unless the heart is free of any anger, bitterness, unforgiveness or hate then there is no conviction to change our deeds. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. The most powerful weapon ever formed are the words of our mouth. Death and Life are in the power of the tongue and they who love it will eat the fruit thereof. Man judges the outward appearance but God judges the heart.

amadeus · Sep 5, 2019

Stan B said:
Israeli genealogy has been studied extensively by Dr. Steven Benner, University of Florida, where he has been assembling DNA profiles of the various Tribes. The Levites were the easiest, and purest genetic DNA, but I haven't kept up with the project, so I don't know the current status.

Thanks. I'll make a note to possibly check into later...

Davy · Sep 5, 2019

amadeus said:
Did He? In which verse does He say that? The 8th chapter has 59 verses.

Man, you won't even take the time to read my post where I showed it!

John 8:58
58 Jesus said unto them, 'Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.'
KJV

In any case, I never said that Jesus was not God. On the contrary... Perhaps you are looking for this verse:

"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." Heb 1:8

Before arguing with a person you should read carefully what he has said. Of course I agree that in Jesus, God was/is certain with us. But, who is Jesus?

So what have you said that disagrees with what I have said? You have quoted the scriptures and I agree with the scriptures. Lots of people quote the scriptures and disagree. Where have we disagreed? Apparently we do, but you haven't touched on any part of that which I am able to see.

Apparently you presume that all people are the same. In some measure certainly, but we definitely do not all receive the same things from our reading of the Bible or we would all agree on every point. That is not how it is.

As to saying that there is one or more than one or three again obviously to anyone there are disagreements among Bible students. If you believe all who disagree with you are wrong, what would suggest to get your opponents to join you?

Jesus knew about the problem, but because men had to make up their own minds as who would direct their hearts, He could not fix the problem. Is this not really the reason that He wept?

I read the same Bible version from which you took your quotations and yet you say that you disagree with me on something. You have not pinpointed the disagreements you have with me. I could have cited precisely the same verses. Hmmm, and your purpose is...?

You stated, and I quote:
"The way he is praying why would we not look for God to be a "Multiplicity" rather than simply a "Trinity"? Now I don't believe in the multiplicity any more than I do in the trinity of God."

That is to deny any concept of more than one Person in The Godhead, which basically means to deny that Christ Jesus is God The Son. This is a problem many Jews have with Christianity, and pagans too for that matter. They cannot understand how there can be only one God, and yet Jesus Christ is God too. The Book of Hebrews 1:3 tells us Jesus is the "express image of His person" and really that ought to be enough proof right there that Jesus is God!

2 John 7
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
KJV

What Apostle John is showing in the above Scripture is that God came in the flesh as Jesus of Nazareth. It's what His name Immanuel in Isaiah also points to. But those who deny Jesus is God come in the flesh are deceivers and an antichrist. It requires the presence of The Holy Spirit to be able to recognize that Jesus of Nazareth is God come in the flesh.

Enoch111 · Sep 5, 2019

justbyfaith said:
I was also saying that I believe that the scripture in the OP does not teach salvation by works (as it cannot; for scripture cannot contradict itself); even though you, in looking at it considered that that is indeed what it was teaching.

This passage (from the OP) is simply addressed to Christians to warn them and teach them how to abandon the things of the flesh. But it is also clear that those same Christians were saved by grace and regenerated. So the OP was actually misusing this passage. And that's what happens when Scriptures are taken out of context.

Colossians 3
[5] Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
[6] For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
[7] In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
[8] But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
[9] Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
[10] And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

The Bible is perfectly clear that Christians must turn away from the things of the flesh and walk in the Spirit. And verse 6 tells us that unless sinners repent they will not be saved. At the same time it is not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to God's mercy that He has saved us.

justbyfaith · Sep 5, 2019

Enoch111 said:
This passage (from the OP) is simply addressed to Christians to warn them and teach them how to abandon the things of the flesh. But it is also clear that those same Christians were saved by grace and regenerated. So the OP was actually misusing this passage. And that's what happens when Scriptures are taken out of context.

Colossians 3
[5] Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
[6] For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
[7] In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
[8] But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
[9] Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
[10] And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

The Bible is perfectly clear that Christians must turn away from the things of the flesh and walk in the Spirit. And verse 6 tells us that unless sinners repent they will not be saved. At the same time it is not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to God's mercy that He has saved us.

Abstaining from sins mentioned in the scripture of the OP is not the same thing as works of righteousness which we have done. Doing works is on a positive level, whereas abstaining from sins is on a negative level. By abstaining from sins we are not doing something; we are not doing any kind of work when we simply do nor commit the sins spoken of in the OP's scripture.

Therefore it is not accurate to try and refute the scripture of the OP with Titus 3:5.

So you are right in saying that we must repent of sins in order to be saved, and that this is not works-righteousness.

Regeneration may indeed take place as the result of such repentance (faith must also be included); and therefore the OP is not off-base in its contention.

justbyfaith · Sep 5, 2019

The OP said this:

07-07-07 said:
We cannot fulfill the lusts of the flesh and deceive ourselves in to believing that we will inherit God's Kingdom too.

Colossians 3
[5] Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
[6] For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
[7] In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
[8] But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
[9] Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
[10] And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

amadeus · Sep 5, 2019

Davy said:
Man, you won't even take the time to read my post where I showed it!

John 8:58
58 Jesus said unto them, 'Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.'
KJV

Why are you so touchy? It was not shown in the post to which I responded. Should I have reread the entire thread?

That verse does not prove Jesus was God. It shows that He existed before Abraham. Therefore He was older than Abraham. So was Enoch the 7th from Adam.

You stated, and I quote:
"The way he is praying why would we not look for God to be a "Multiplicity" rather than simply a "Trinity"? Now I don't believe in the multiplicity any more than I do in the trinity of God."

That is to deny any concept of more than one Person in The Godhead, which basically means to deny that Christ Jesus is God The Son.

This is a presumption as to what I believe. You express no interest in understanding what I believe so I won't amplify.

This is a problem many Jews have with Christianity, and pagans too for that matter. They cannot understand how there can be only one God, and yet Jesus Christ is God too. The Book of Hebrews 1:3 tells us Jesus is the "express image of His person" and really that ought to be enough proof right there that Jesus is God!

What is to understand? We live by faith, do we not? And "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

2 John 7
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
KJV

What Apostle John is showing in the above Scripture is that God came in the flesh as Jesus of Nazareth. It's what His name Immanuel in Isaiah also points to. But those who deny Jesus is God come in the flesh are deceivers and an antichrist. It requires the presence of The Holy Spirit to be able to recognize that Jesus of Nazareth is God come in the flesh.

What are you trying to prove and why?

Heart2Soul · Sep 5, 2019

justbyfaith said:
That Willie T. had access to the following and decided to promote it, is at least evidence that he is a mormon:

Though he may attend a Vineyard Fellowship, I believe that he has leanings towards mormonism and promoting that pov; as evidenced by the fact that he posted what I have quoted from him above.

Oh no, I can't understand your reasoning here......he posted that video as an example. Okay well, I will leave it to the Holy Spirit whether to convict your heart on this presumptive conclusion of Willie.

justbyfaith · Sep 5, 2019

amadeus said:
That verse does not prove Jesus was God.

I would ask you why you think the Lord used a departure from normal grammatical usage in making the claim of "I AM;" moving from past tense to present tense in His statement.

I believe that He was indeed making a claim, referring back to what the Jews were well aware of, Exodus 3:14.

They understood His claim; and picked up stones to stone Him for blasphemy. Not once, but twice.

The second time He asked them what good work they were stoning Him for. They responded, "not for a good work; but because thou, being a man, make yourself God." (John 10:31-33).

It seems pretty clear-cut to me.

But some people still harden their hearts against this truth; coming up with arguments in an attempt to make it go away.

I respond with the heavy artillery of prayer.

2Co 10:3, For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
2Co 10:4, (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
2Co 10:5, Casting down imaginations (some versions: arguments), and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Stan B · Sep 5, 2019

justbyfaith said:
I would ask you why you think the Lord used a departure from normal grammatical usage in making the claim of "I AM;" moving from past tense to present tense in His statement.

"I AM" is merely a defining characteristic of God. As the infinite One, he is beyond the confines of past, present or future. He is timeless!

justbyfaith · Sep 6, 2019

Stan B said:
"I AM" is merely a defining characteristic of God. As the infinite One, he is beyond the confines of past, present or future. He is timeless!

However, I believe that in breaking grammatical rules, He was making a claim before the Pharisees...a claim to be the voice of the burning bush in Exodus 3:14.

Stan B · Sep 6, 2019

justbyfaith said:
However, I believe that in breaking grammatical rules, He was making a claim before the Pharisees...a claim to be the voice of the burning bush in Exodus 3:14.

Jesus went further than that! He was actually having fun with them, and indeed mocking them. When they accused Him of proclaiming to be God, He mocked them for their ignorance of the Tanakh which says we are all gods! “You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High. Psalm 82:6

God has sense of humour. I believe that passage was placed in Scripture for this very occasion!

FollowHim · Sep 6, 2019

Willie T said:
God help the poor people who are only mortal who come across you pious Pharisees, and have to hear your condemnation of them for not being perfect. No wonder Jesus told those other Pharisees that the Tax Collectors and Prostitutes would be entering the Kingdom before they would.

Amen. The priests and the religious folk did not want to help the man attacked by robbers on the road. Getting alongside people with deep emotional and spiritual needs, who have a chaotic life is hard and takes real skill and blessing.

But equally if the gospel is not one of hope and transformation where the emotional and spiritual needy are not met, healed and transformed what hope is there in the gospel itself. Jesus comes that we might walk in the Kingdom, in our hearts, in our souls, in reality and be free walking into eternity. This is why the gospel has real power, though church folk rarely see this in their lives because they are often the most loved secure and happy folk with few problems there is. In truth though, this covering often hides unresolved frustration and turmoil that needs to find expression or they are destroyed, and for some to even know they are loved, when the words were there, but never its true expression.

After growing up exactly in this situation, I know it is often harder for church folk to come to know Jesus, because though the words are there the emotional reality of knowing we are the worst of sinners, in need of the cross, and then to know its transforming power, changing and helping us grow to maturity in Him is rare. Reading these threads is testament to even bible trained preachers can miss these realities after 40+ years in the church, repeating the creeds, to the point they are meaningless, and cannot see anyone actually believing them. God bless you

amadeus · Sep 6, 2019

justbyfaith said:
I would ask you why you think the Lord used a departure from normal grammatical usage in making the claim of "I AM;" moving from past tense to present tense in His statement.

I was only making a point in response to another person who has expressed no real interest in what I really believe or why. I certainly do believe that Jesus was making a point, God's point, by using such an expression with regard to Himself. I believe Jesus is God. As has been said recently on another thread, the Bible can be used to support many different viewpoints, some of them almost certainly in error. That is man's way. That is why the leading of the Holy Spirit is always essential to get us on and keep us on the right pathway [the highway of holiness].

I believe that He was indeed making a claim, referring back to what the Jews were well aware of, Exodus 3:14.

I see the same connection. Unfortunately few of the Jews recognizing the connection were will to go against the leadership alone. Jesus did when the leadership was in error, no matter what the personal cost...

They understood His claim; and picked up stones to stone Him for blasphemy. Not once, but twice.

The second time He asked them what good work they were stoning Him for. They responded, "not for a good work; but because thou, being a man, make yourself God." (John 10:31-33).

It seems pretty clear-cut to me.

Of course is clear-cut to you or me or another, may not be clear-cut to yet another. We lead the horse to water, but we cannot make him drink. Should we try to force him?

But some people still harden their hearts against this truth; coming up with arguments in an attempt to make it go away.

I respond with the heavy artillery of prayer.

2Co 10:3, For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
2Co 10:4, (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
2Co 10:5, Casting down imaginations (some versions: arguments), and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

People do harden their hearts against God's truth, but how we act or react to this when we recognize it has no easy black and white answer in each instance. Prayer is never wrong unless we pray amiss, or when like Samuel, we have been admonished by God to move on to His next task for us. [see I Sam 16:1]

justbyfaith · Sep 6, 2019

Stan B said:
Jesus went further than that! He was actually having fun with them, and indeed mocking them. When they accused Him of proclaiming to be God, He mocked them for their ignorance of the Tanakh which says we are all gods! “You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High. Psalm 82:6

God has sense of humour. I believe that passage was placed in Scripture for this very occasion!

I don't believe that our Lord is a mocker...mocking another is not holy behaviour; I would identify it as sinful. And Jesus was without sin.

amadeus said:
Should we try to force him?

Certainly not. Although, a certain atheist made the following statement: If I believed as Christians say they do, I would tackle people in order to try to get them to see my pov that they could go to hell if they don't believe. It would be like if a blind and deaf friend were walking in front of an oncoming bus. I would physically do something about it. He might complain that I laid my hands on him, but I wouldn't care about that. I would be saving his life.

That is my paraphrase of what Penn of Penn and Teller said after having an encounter with someone who actually had the guts to witness Christ to him.

But of course, all we can really do is lead a horse to water. We can't make him drink; that is entirely up to the horse.

However, if we retain our saltiness as believers, we will be a thirst-producing factor in other people's lives. They will want to drink because they are thirsty and also realize that there is living water flowing from within us.

The Lord spoke to me recently and told me that His word is like a two-edged sword. And therefore all I have to do is apply it to myself in a public manner; and it will cut to the quick on the other end those people to whom the scripture also applies. It deals pretty concisely with my tendency to be the judge of other people. If I take the beam out of my own eye, I will be able to see clearly to take the speck out of my brother's eye. This is how we become salty again: by applying the word to our own lives in front of other people and letting the Holy Spirit transform us from the inside out.

No Heaven if you don't mortify the deeds of the flesh

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