Philippians 2:12

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Ernest T. Bass

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Thank you for your straightfoward reply. You may be surprised at how certain people dodge and evade that question! It just makes sure we're on the same playing field.

But let me ask a follow-up question.

If faithfulness until death is what is required, then aren't you already by your own admission disqualified?

Much love!

Faithful unto death does not mean I will be perfectly sinless every second of every minute all the time till I die. But as long as I do not abandon Christ nor abandon walking in the light altogether Christ will keep me perfect before God.

My faithfulness unto death then requires me to stay faithful in walking with Christ even though that walk is not perfect, Christ's keeps me perfect.
 

marks

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Faithful unto death does not mean I will be perfectly sinless every second of every minute all the time till I die. But as long as I do not abandon Christ nor abandon walking in the light altogether Christ will keep me perfect before God.

My faithfulness unto death then requires me to stay faithful in walking with Christ even though that walk is not perfect, Christ's keeps me perfect.
Got it! I think I started down the wrong path there for a minute!

Much love!
 

CharismaticLady

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That requires special attention, because it is so... false!

Apostle Paul wrote the WHOLE BOOK OF ROMANS for The CHURCH, not just parts of it.'

Your saying that reveals exactly the kind of problem with your listening to spirits from those possessed hirelings I was pointing to.

Romans 7 is ESPECIALLY for the Christian. The whole Book is Christian Doctrine for Christ's Church! Romans and Galatians are FOUNDATION BOOKS of Christian Doctrine by Apostle Paul.

Davy, The first 8 chapters of Romans is one teaching. Paul is teaching on Sin and the Law, then not being under the law but grace but still not sinning, and then Romans 7 is about why the Law didn't work - our sin nature - constant struggle between mind and flesh; and the cream de la cream - the SPIRIT and the replacement of the sin nature. "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

Davy, this is why Jesus said we MUST be born again of the Spirit. We put to death the old carnal nature on the cross, and are resurrected with Christ to live now according to the Spirit - not the old carnal nature - the "flesh." Do not get confused with the word, "flesh." One meaning is our body; but when Paul talks about the flesh as in Galatians 5:19-21 he is talking about the carnal nature that can never please God, and will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Understand now? You have to read those first 8 chapters as one teaching. Taking parts out of context of the whole is why there have been false teachings over the last 500 years.
 

CharismaticLady

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Hi CL,

Do you mean to say that our forgiveness from God ceases should we not forgive another?

Much love!

Are you going to test God? I believe Jesus when He said, Mt. 6:14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
 

marks

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Are you going to test God? I believe Jesus when He said, Mt. 6:14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
No I don't think we should test God, I think we should simply believe Him.

Not that I don't think we are to forgive. But it was under the Old Covenant when Jesus taught that unless we forgive others, we will not be forgiven. Under the teaching of the New Covenant, we have already been forgiven, so now we are to forgive others, just like we have been.

But our forgiveness is based on our faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross, nothing to do with our ongoing behavior. Just the same, we forgive with our Father's love and grace.

Much love!
 

justbyfaith

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How can I be perfect if I sin? Does God require the impossible of me?

If you are in any way trusting in your obedience/good works/law-keeping to save you, then the following scriptures apply:

Gal 3:10, For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Jas 2:10, For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11, For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12, So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Mat 5:48, Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


But it was under the Old Covenant when Jesus taught that unless we forgive others, we will not be forgiven.

I believe that this teaching is found in the New Testament...Matthew 6:14-15.

Heb 1:1, God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
 

CharismaticLady

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No I don't think we should test God, I think we should simply believe Him.

Not that I don't think we are to forgive. But it was under the Old Covenant when Jesus taught that unless we forgive others, we will not be forgiven. Under the teaching of the New Covenant, we have already been forgiven, so now we are to forgive others, just like we have been.

But our forgiveness is based on our faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross, nothing to do with our ongoing behavior. Just the same, we forgive with our Father's love and grace.

Much love!

Not our behavior, just as long as we believe in Christ??? Even the demons believe and tremble. 1 John 1:6 I have never heard you quote a doctrine of demons before as if it was true. I'm shocked!

If you believe Jesus came to teach the Old Covenant you need to realize that the Sermon on the Mount is showing what is expected in the New Covenant. These are His commandments. What He doesn't show yet is that He will give us the Spirit to fulfill the righteous requirements of the law.

Here is an example.

21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 BUT I SAY TO YOU that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.

John 15:10
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
 

justbyfaith

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It should be clear that we obtain and keep the love of the Lord through faith, Galatians 3:14 and Romans 5:5.

The practical outworking of that love is keeping Jesus' commandments.

It should be clear that there is no law given (Old Testament or New) that can impart life. Galatians 3:21.
 

marks

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Not our behavior, just as long as we believe in Christ??? Even the demons believe and tremble. 1 John 1:6 I have never heard you quote a doctrine of demons before as if it was true. I'm shocked!

Perhaps you aren't realizing what I'm saying.

We are justified by faith alone, not by our works.

Works follow justification and regeneration.

In the sermon on the mount, taught to people under the Law, justification was dependant on fulfilling the law. Under the new covenant, fulfulling the law is dependant on justification and regeneration.

But regardless, while I certainly believe and teach that we are reborn to do righteousness, just the same, our salvation is by faith first to last.

Much love!
 
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CharismaticLady

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Perhaps you aren't realizing what I'm saying.

We are justified by faith alone, not by our works.

Works follow justification and regeneration.

In the sermon on the mount, taught to people under the Law, justification was dependant on fulfilling the law. Under the new covenant, fulfulling the law is dependant on justification and regeneration.

But regardless, while I certainly believe and teach that we are reborn to do righteousness, just the same, our salvation is by faith first to last.

Much love!


You had me baffled, my friend!. I just want to reiterate that the New Covenant has two commandments, not just one.

1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ AND love one another, as He gave us commandment.

There are some who talk about works and say that repentance is a work and not required, just belief in Jesus, but He doesn't give His gift of the Holy Spirit without true repentance. And without the indwelling Holy Spirit of Christ, we don't belong to Him. Romans 8:9

Acts of the Apostles 2:38

Just to point out also from a previous post about Matthew 6:14-15, when Jesus taught, He taught the New Covenant. The only time He spoke about the Old Covenant was to the Pharisees, not the disciples, and that was usually about the Sabbath laws (which was the sign of the Old Covenant, The Ten Commandments, Exodus 34:28 and Exodus 31:13).
 
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justbyfaith

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Repentance is not a work (of man). It is a work of the Holy Spirit, accomplished by the grace of God alone.
 

marks

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You had me baffled, my friend!. I just want to reiterate that the New Covenant has two commandments, not just one.

1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ AND love one another, as He gave us commandment.

There are some who talk about works and say that repentance is a work and not required, just belief in Jesus, but He doesn't give His gift of the Holy Spirit without true repentance. And without the indwelling Holy Spirit of Christ, we don't belong to Him. Romans 8:9

Acts of the Apostles 2:38

Just to point out also from a previous post about Matthew 6:14-15, when Jesus taught, He taught the New Covenant. The only time He spoke about the Old Covenant was to the Pharisees, not the disciples, and that was usually about the Sabbath laws (which was the sign of the Old Covenant, The Ten Commandments, Exodus 34:28 and Exodus 31:13).

Repentance is the exchanging of the mind of the flesh for the mind of Christ. It's when we decide to reject our former self, in favor of the message of the Gospel, and become a new self, born of God, with a new mind, the mind of Christ.

Yes, absolutely, Believe in Jeus, and love one another, Amen!!! And in doing these all is done.

A new man lives a new life, and if a new life is not being lived, we may question whether we are truly a new man.

If we say we believe in Jesus, but don't believe what He says about us, then do we really believe? If we say we choose Jesus, but don't choose what He want's for us, same question, are we really choosing Him?

Much love!
 

Grailhunter

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Nevertheless, if anyone is seeking to be saved through what they are doing unto the Lord, they are subject to every law, Old Testament and New. Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48.

And sin is still defined as the transgression of the law. Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-20 that not one jot or tittle shall in any wise pass away from the law till heaven and earth pass away. That if we obey the least of the commandments in the OT, and teach men to do so, we will be called great in the kingdom. But that if we disobey the least of these commandments, and teach men so, we will be called least.

Therefore even the least of every law in the OT is still valid as a testimony bringing the knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20).

You have heard that it was said, ‘shirt, let him have your coat also. 41 Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 D)" data-cr="#cen-NASB-23277D" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;">Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you


This is where confusion lies for the Judaizers.... lol Not that you are a Judaizers JBF Christian sins are transgressions against what Christ taught...the Laws of Christ. During His ministry Christ made corrections to the Mosaic Law in relations to Christians....eye for eye....divorcee....and such, but He did not change the Law for the Jews. We are not under the Law so where there is no Law there is no transgressions. What we do wrong is between us and Christ.

Many times when Christ is speaking in the NT He is addressing the Jews and or answering questions from the Jews. The 613 Mosaic Laws are a body of Laws. They will not change. No Laws will be added, no Laws will be taken away. Not even a single letter will change. They will remain in effect until all things are accomplished........for anyone that is in the Old Covenant.....for the Jews, not us. Christian are not under any Old Testament Law...no law. The sin that Christians do is that they take the first ten Laws to observe (not really, just some of them) If you take one of them, you must observe all of them. Amputating a finger off of the body of the 613 Mosaic Laws is 613 sins, because if you break one you are guilty of them all. Taking 10 to post and observe is extremely sacrilegious to the Law, because you take ten and that is a change of the Law, and then ignore the other 603 and that is more sin. Cannot change the Law, cannot add to it, cannot take away from it. Not a single letter. Paul spoke extensively against anyone that thought they were under the Law, the Jerusalem council ruled on this matter. Paul's biggest obstetrical in his ministry were those that wanted to bring the Mosaic Law in to Christianity and he got pretty stern about. Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Circumcision was considered as the process of becoming a Jew...a lot like Christians being baptizes. Those that would want to bring the Mosaic Law into Christianity has to take up arms against the NT scriptures. The phrase Ten Commandments does not occur in the New Testament. Just a blanket statement that we are not to observe the Law.
 
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Grailhunter

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'Wherefore, my beloved,
as ye have always obeyed,
not as in my presence only,
but now much more in my absence,

work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you
both to will and to do of His good pleasure.'

(Philippians 2:12)

Hello there,

This verse creates a problem in the minds of some, because, a) it appears to link salvation with works, and, b) that it appears to teach that we need to be in 'fear and trembling' before God. But, can salvation be earned by good works? & Should we be in 'fear and trembling' before our loving Heavenly Father?

* The first thing we should note, is that the words written, are, 'work out your salvation', and not, 'work for your salvation'. This makes a difference doesn't it? For there is a great difference between working 'for' something, and working 'out' something. :)

* Salvation is a free gift, given by God to all who have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, as the One Who died for their sins. However, once salvation has been 'received', it needs to be worked out. See Ephesians 2:8-10:-

'For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are His workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.'

(Ephesians 2:8-10)

* Paul makes clear that salvation cannot be secured by works. He tells us, 'a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the law and the prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. ... For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.' (Romans 3:21, 22 & 28)

* The, 'working out' of salvation, is working out in practice what God has already 'worked in' by His almighty power and grace: by walking before Him as those who are walking in newness of life, by faith; energised by His Spirit, in Christ Jesus. Seeking to please Him, and honour Him in our walk and witness, as those whose sins have been forgiven, and have the hope of eternal life in Christ Jesus their Lord.

* The 'fear and trembling' spoken of in this verse, is a reverential attitude towards God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure: for God's perfect love casts out all fear.

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Well Charity, was this thread successful? Did it answer your questions?
 

Davy

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Davy, The first 8 chapters of Romans is one teaching. Paul is teaching on Sin and the Law, then not being under the law but grace but still not sinning, and then Romans 7 is about why the Law didn't work - our sin nature - constant struggle between mind and flesh; and the cream de la cream - the SPIRIT and the replacement of the sin nature. "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

No matter what you say now, you made a rash statement in your other post, saying that Romans 7 isn't for the Church.

Irregardless that Paul was teaching about the differences between our flesh and our spirit in Romans 7, it is a very... important teaching, and is part of his Message to all Churches in Christ Jesus. And no, you cannot just isolate it from the rest of the Romans chapters like you've wrongly been taught to do, because your teachers don't really understand that chapter themselves. Another reason you cannot is because Paul is actually covering the same subjects throughout the whole Book of Romans, the difference between the law vs. God's grace, and the flesh vs. spirit, the old world vs. the world to come, all in relation to The Gospel of Jesus Christ. That info isn't just in chapter 7.

The "sin nature" idea is a modern invention of men's philosophy. It is in modern translations from men's ideas, not in the actual Bible texts. We sin because we are in the flesh. That is what Apostle Paul showed in Romans 6, which is a clear account, and not some philosophical idea of man that refuses to pinpoint what sin actually is (transgression of God's laws).

And as I have said before, Paul gave a CONDITION to be in Christ's grace after we have believed on Him and been baptized. We have to stay in the walk with Him and not fall away. That condition of staying in Christ is especially taught in Romans 6 & 8. And the warning of falling away into sin again is given (Romans 6:13-23).

Understanding Romans 7:
Many don't understand Romans 7. They can't grasp that God's laws can still be in effect for Christianity while being under grace. The matter is actually very simple, many just don't want to admit it. Romans 7 goes along with what Paul taught in 1 Timothy 1 about God's laws. Our Lord Jesus did not nail all of God's law to His cross. Colossians 2 says Jesus nailed the handwriting of ordinances in the law to His cross. That didn't mean the Ten Commandments, nor many laws that are still in effect today like what Paul covered in 1 Timothy 1. Many in the Grace Movement don't like to hear this, and preach against it. But they are actually going against Christian Doctrine in Paul's Epistles.

In Romans 7, Apostle Paul is showing us that while we are in yet in this flesh body, we cannot escape sin, because like he also said in Galatians 3:22, the Scripture has concluded us all under sin, so that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Paul said in Rom.6 to reckon ourselves dead unto sin by faith in Christ, but he never said that means we cannot ever still sin in our flesh. Just the opposite, Romans 7 shows that we still will sin because of our flesh. Paul even reveals that in the strong sense that 'we are going to still sin at times', not can still sin, but we are still going to at times, regardless of what one thinks.

So like Paul showed in Romans 7:23-25, Who shall deliver us from this "body of death"? Paul last said there thusly, with the mind (our spirit) we serve the law of God, but with our flesh the law of sin. In other words, because of our flesh we will always remain imperfect and will slip up at times and still sin. Our spirit won't be released from this fleshy "body of death" until our Lord Jesus returns.

By that Paul is showing us who caused us to have this "body of death". It wasn't Adam's sin, as that was not actually the very first sin that brought death. Satan is who sinned from the beginning, and God judged and sentenced him to death back when he first rebelled. Thus the concept of death and imperfection was caused by Satan in the world of old. That is why the power of death was assigned to Satan (Hebrews 2:14-15.)

So how did Christ's Apostles teach to handle this situation? just ignore future sins we may commit? No.

This is why our Lord Jesus in the prayer He gave us to pray per Luke 11, we are to ask forgiveness of our sins, even after... we have believed on Him and been baptized. This also is John's Message in 1 John 1. We aren't to deny that we can still have sin in our lives, which is what Apostle Paul is teaching in Romans 7. Yet we are to repent when we do mess up, and ask Jesus forgiveness, staying in His grace.

To not recognize this basic Christian Doctrine from The New Testament is to go the way of lawlessness, and become an apostate.
 

CharismaticLady

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Repentance is the exchanging of the mind of the flesh for the mind of Christ. It's when we decide to reject our former self, in favor of the message of the Gospel, and become a new self, born of God, with a new mind, the mind of Christ.

No, this is the result of repentance, but is not repentance, itself. You cannot by yourself make yourself born again of the Spirit - that is what you described in exchanging of the mind of the flesh for the mind of Christ. That is what Jesus through His Spirit does after we truly repent.

The Romans 7 experience is someone trying very hard to live right on their own. It is always a struggle. That is because the Spirit is not involved, sin still dominates (vs. 13). Sin is only taken away in Christ.

Repentance is when we come to the end of ourselves and acknowledge that we cannot change our desires. The flesh wants what the flesh wants, and all the will power in the world cannot change our thoughts, that if dwelt on in weakness lead to actions of the flesh. Even knowing about Jesus and attending church isn't enough, but can only lead to self-righteousness and false assurance. We must see the sin nature governing us by the Spirit who draws us to Christ, and cry out to Jesus that we can't do a thing in ourselves to change, and ask Him to create a new heart in us so we can truly be free from sin. This humility and integrity of heart is when Jesus reveals Himself to us in a whole new way, by filling us with His Spirit. That is when we literally fall in love with Jesus and truly abide in Him. We have supernatural knowledge of Him and can hear His voice leading us into all righteousness and holiness and are filled with faith. And all desires to sin are gone! We love what God loves, and hate what God hates by the new nature given us.
 
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Davy

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The Romans 7 experience is someone trying very hard to live right on their own. It is always a struggle. That is because the Spirit is not involved, sin still dominates (vs. 13). Sin is only taken away in Christ.

No such idea as the Romans 7 experience. That's just confusion of terms.

Romans 7 shows no matter how hard we try not to sin while in this flesh, we still are going to slip up at times, and there is no escaping this "body of death" until Jesus comes to redeem us from it. That is why Paul showed there that what he would not do, he found himself doing, and what he wanted to do, he found himself doing just the opposite. He showed a state of war between our spirit and our flesh, because of our spirit being in this "body of death".

He did NOT... teach there any... such ideas there that that condition happens because of The Spirit not being involved (The Holy Spirit warns us). What you're trying to say is ignorant, as if the believer stops believing on Jesus as their Saviour every time they slip up! That is really a very, very poor excuse for an explanation, and is your adding... a false idea to the Scripture!!! And it looks like you did that just so you can keep the false doctrines of men you are on.
 

marks

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No, this is the result of repentance, but is not repentance, itself. You cannot by yourself make yourself born again of the Spirit - that is what you described in exchanging of the mind of the flesh for the mind of Christ. That is what Jesus through His Spirit does after we truly repent.
Again, I think we may have crossed wires . . .

:)

We assent to God's command to believe in Jesus, desiring the new life offered. Then God gives us rebirth, including giving us that new mind of Christ.

I think people often go into salvation with the OT idea of repentance, I have to stop the bad I'm doing, but then find themselves recipients of the NT repentance, as they are given a new mind with their new life in Christ.

Sorry if somehow I was being confusing!

Much love!
 

CharismaticLady

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No such idea as the Romans 7 experience. That's just confusion of terms.

Romans 7 shows no matter how hard we try not to sin while in this flesh, we still are going to slip up at times, and there is no escaping this "body of death" until Jesus comes to redeem us from it. That is why Paul showed there that what he would not do, he found himself doing, and what he wanted to do, he found himself doing just the opposite. He showed a state of war between our spirit and our flesh, because of our spirit being in this "body of death".

He did NOT... teach there any... such ideas there that that condition happens because of The Spirit not being involved (The Holy Spirit warns us). What you're trying to say is ignorant, as if the believer stops believing on Jesus as their Saviour every time they slip up! That is really a very, very poor excuse for an explanation, and is your adding... a false idea to the Scripture!!! And it looks like you did that just so you can keep the false doctrines of men you are on.

Romans 7:13
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

The person in Roman 7 still has sin in them. Does that describe you?