Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

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Giuliano

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RUBBISH.

This isn't a problem with statues. It's a problem with the FAITH of some.
You can't blame an inanimate object for the nonsense that some people attribute to it.
I'm not. I'm questioning the wisdom of the people who wanted that object.

You tell me now, how can such a thing happen? Too much emphasis on non-essentials and not enough on the essentials?

That is as silly as blaming a bowl of spaghetti because somebody claimed that the Blessed Mother appeared in it . . .
Many evils in this world could be prevented if we avoided temptation. If you don't want to buy candy, don't go down the candy aisle to look at the candy. If you're a gay priest, don't let the altar boy change clothes in front of you.

Take the candy example. The guy who's obese may say, "I'll just look at it." Then he gets there and says, "I'll buy a bag and take it home to look at it." When he gets home, he decides to smell it. That wouldn't hurt, would it? Then he says, "I'll eat just one piece." And before he knows what happened, he's eaten the whole bag of candy and hates himself. Moral: Avoid temptation from the get-go.

The fact is if you want statues, problems come with them.
 
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GodsGrace

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Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 – here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 – Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 – God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 – the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

CCC 1030-1032

Thanks E.
I still believe purgatory came much later than the time of the Apostles.
It's also based on 1 Corinthians 3: 9-15 and also on the parable of the unmerciful servant, Matthew 18:13-21

The link to the CCC would not state this.

The following is from New Advent...
I do believe it took hundreds of years for the development of this dogma.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Purgatory
 

GodsGrace

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This is absolute nonsense and yet another one of your anti-Catholic lies that has been exposed . . .

Paragraphs 846 - 848 of the Catechism destroy your nonsense:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338


Why do you even bother posting the lie??
So the CCC is in conflict with itself?

See what the following states:
And you REALLY should stop telling lies about the CC.


1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."

So, once again we see a change in DOCTRINE, which you refuse to accept.

Complain to Francis.....
And looks like there's MUCH MORE on the way....
 

GodsGrace

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No. There is no salvation outside the church because that is what the Apostles taught. The phrase was coined before the reformation. Vatican II reformulated Trent with a milder tone, but taught the same thing.

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Toward unity

820 "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279
CCC - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3
In other words, there is no salvation outside the church. It's another grossly misunderstood phrase.

This teaching of Christ and His Church is not meant to allow indifferentism or exclusivism. Baptism and unity with the Catholic Church provide the only assurance of salvation, but not the only means. "God has bound salvation to the Sacrament of Baptism, but He Himself is not bound by His sacraments" (Catechism, no. 1257, original emphasis).

Don't you and BoL know that the catholic church is teaching these days?
Are you so stuck in the Council of Trent that you can't get up to date?

Are you ALSO of the opinion that remarried persons receiving communion, in the stte of mortal sin, is NOT a change in doctrine?

You should speak to your priest or go to bible study or do something to inform yourself.

See my post no. 983.

I know you and BoL hate to accept this,
but the church has changed.

And more coming soon.
 

GodsGrace

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I don't know. We may be seeing some progress. After all, he admitted you were right about something. It was done grudgingly, but he admitted it.

Give the thread another 40 or 50 pages or so, and maybe he'll be able to say you're right about something without adding a disparaging remark; and who knows, by the time we get to 200 pages, he may thank you for posting some things.
Oh, somebody stop me!
hysterical.gif


When I say something about the CC, I'm always right.
I think BoL and epostle stay at home and read up on the CCC or old bulls, or something.

I like to keep in touch with what the church is teaching NOW, what it believes and where it is going.

They don't like change, so they have to stick to the past.
My post 983 conflicts entirely with what they believe.

But I know FOR SURE that the catholic church teaches that there IS SALVATION outside that church.
 

GodsGrace

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RUBBISH.

This isn't a problem with statues. It's a problem with the FAITH of some.
You can't blame an inanimate object for the nonsense that some people attribute to it.

That is as silly as blaming a bowl of spaghetti because somebody claimed that the Blessed Mother appeared in it . . .
Priests should have taught their parishioners that they should NOT pray to statues.

Some persons DID almost worship the statue.
I remember when persons would go to their favorite statue and kneel before it and pray to it, or they couldn't pray.

This is ignorance that priests allowed to continue even AFTER PERSONS COULD READ AND WRITE.
 
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GodsGrace

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Ummmmm, that’s a stretch.

Solomon wasn’t commanded to have carved Cherubim placed in the Temple. It’s not even implied in Scripture. Nice try . . .

As for the “Early Church” era being up for argument - the ”Early Church” Fathers are considered so as late as John of Damascus in AD 749. This is according to PROTESTANT as well as Catholic scholarship. It has been PROVEN that paintings were used to educate and remind as far back as the SECOND Century.

It has ALSO been proven that carvings and etchings go back as far as the THIRD century. Statues were placed in churches after the FOURTH century – which is the MIDDLE of the Early Church era.

You’re running out of excuses . . .
Most theologians agree that the ECFs goes to 325 AD...which is what I agree with.
Some will go up to about 600.
I don't believe after 700 they could be considered ECFs.

Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers

Church Fathers - New World Encyclopedia
 

GodsGrace

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WHO said that the tradition od images started AFTER the Apostolic age??

All we have left are examples from the early 2nd century and beyond. That doesn’t mean it all started “after” the Apostles. It simply means that they didn’t survive.

The same goes for any other Catholic Tradition/tradition. Simply because it was written about after the Apostles doesn’t mean that it wasn’t in practice since then. A perfect example of Infant Baptism. This is unanimously claimed by the Early church as an “Apostolic” practice handed down to them – but we don’t see the first extant writings about it until the 2nd century.

Tradition/tradition isn‘t always written down.
I know that the early church baptized infants and why.

But you state that this was UNANIMOUSLY claimed by the ECFs to be an
Apostolic practice handed down to them...

Do you have some writing regarding this?
I don't personally know of any --- this does not mean the writings don't exist.
 

epostle

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Thanks E.
I still believe purgatory came much later than the time of the Apostles.
It's also based on 1 Corinthians 3: 9-15 and also on the parable of the unmerciful servant, Matthew 18:13-21

The link to the CCC would not state this.

The following is from New Advent...
I do believe it took hundreds of years for the development of this dogma.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Purgatory
It took arguably longer for the doctrine of Original Sin to develop, which is accepted by most Protestants. It seems like an inconsistency to me.
 

Taken

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Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church? <--- OP

Absolutely.

Salvation is a GIFT Jesus OFFERED TO THE WHOLD WORLD.

Some ACCEPT Jesus' GIFT and Become SAVED, ONCE and Forever....MANY DON'T.

And MANY TEACH (Jews and Catholics particularly)...they are UNDER the Law of MOSES,
and MUST Continue DOING good and Acceptable WORKS, as a LIFE LONG PROCESS...to Receive Salvation at the END of their Natural Lives...

However Scripture teaches, JESUS IS a mans Salvation and IS COME NOW TO a Man Converted IN Christ.

Many SIMPLY DO NOT BELIEVE or TRUST Jesus and thus PREACH to the contrary.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

epostle

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I know that the early church baptized infants and why.

But you state that this was UNANIMOUSLY claimed by the ECFs to be an
Apostolic practice handed down to them...

Do you have some writing regarding this?
I don't personally know of any --- this does not mean the writings don't exist.
No one objected to infant baptism for 16 centuries. Luther and Calvin baptized infants (although Calvin rejected baptismal regeneration). After them, objection to infant baptism didn't take root until the 17th century, meaning it is a tradition of men, in the light of scriptural inferences and history. But the debate has been raging only in the last 200 years.

In 253 A.D. the Council of Carthage, condemned the opinion that baptism should be withheld from infants until the eighth day after birth. Early Christian Church, didn’t argue over whether or not to baptize infants. The argument was over whether or not parents should have to wait a full eight days before baptizing their babies. The members of the Council of Carthage, felt that requiring parents to wait the eight days before baptizing their new born babes, was asking them to wait too long.
Infant Baptism - Scripture Catholic
 

Grams

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Is there salvation in all catholic church's ??

I was not saved at the c.church I went to !!!!!!! [ back in the 1940's and early 50's)

Never had a bible ............ and going to the priest for confession was not making me saved.
got saved at a bible church. in my 50's and my husband and children.
 

epostle

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Are you ALSO of the opinion that remarried persons receiving communion, in the stte of mortal sin, is NOT a change in doctrine?
Divorced Catholics, seeking annulment and attending Mass regularly, have had their lives ravaged. They need mercy, not rules. We don't shoot our wounded. Denying them communion on assuming they are in a state of mortal sin is phariseeism, IMO, because the Church cannot say who is and who isn't. Furthermore, the rules for receiving are disciplinary, not doctrinal, and are subject to re-wording. Close pastoral supervision is a requirement for remarried to receive, and it is not for outsiders to tell the Church what the rules should be.
You should speak to your priest or go to bible study or do something to inform yourself.
See my post no. 983.
I know you and BoL hate to accept this,
but the church has changed.
And more coming soon.
Circumstances have changed. The world has changed. Culture is constantly changing. The Church speaks to the times, she is not freeze dried in a 16th century mindset. "Change" is on the surface.

John 14:26 – Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would teach the Church (the apostles and successors) all things regarding the faith. This means that the Church can teach us the right moral positions on such things as in vitro fertilization, cloning and other issues that are not addressed in the Bible. After all, these issues of morality are necessary for our salvation, and God would not leave such important issues to be decided by us sinners without His divine assistance.

John 16:12 – Jesus had many things to say but the apostles couldn’t bear them at that point. This demonstrates that the Church’s infallible doctrine develops over time. All public Revelation was completed with the death of the last apostle, but the doctrine of God’s Revelation develops as our minds and hearts are able to welcome and understand it. God teaches His children only as much as they can bear, for their own good.

John 16:13 – Jesus promises that the Spirit will “guide” the Church into all truth. Our knowledge of the truth develops as the Spirit guides the Church, and this happens over time. You insist it's change when in fact it is development, it only appears on the surface to be change. I mean doctrinal development, not changes in rubrics or customs.

Development of Catholic Doctrine: A Primer
 

epostle

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Is there salvation in all catholic church's ??

I was not saved at the c.church I went to !!!!!!! [ back in the 1940's and early 50's)

Never had a bible ............ and going to the priest for confession was not making me saved.
got saved at a bible church. in my 50's and my husband and children.
So you "got saved" outside the Church, and automatically assume there is no salvation IN the Church you left. This is a doctrine you have created and you are not being fair.
 

Giuliano

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Then there was the very awkward case in the Philippines where even am archbishop endorsed apparitions, only to have the Vatican say no later. It's a rather long article, so I won't quote it all.

The curious case of the Lipa Marian apparitions

Archbishop Arguelles felt so passionately about the devotion that on Nov. 12, 2009, on the 61st anniversary of Mary’s alleged final appearance to Sister Teresita, he officially lifted the 1951 ban on public veneration of the image, and formed a new commission to re-examine the apparition and related phenomena.

Once again, about a year later, the Vatican shut it down.

“We, the undersigned Archbishops and bishops, constituting for the purpose a special Commission, having attentively examined and reviewed the evidence and testimonies collected in the course of repeated, long and careful investigations, have reached the unanimous conclusion and hereby officially declare that the above mentioned evidence and testimonies exclude any supernatural intervention in the reported extraordinary happenings – including the shower of petals – at the Carmel of Lipa. This declaration is the official communication of the final decision on the matter, as approved by the Holy See," the bishops said in a statement.

But Archbishop Arguelles’ personal faith in the devotion did not budge. After declaring in another homily his personal devotion and belief in the apparitions, he released an official statement of approval of the apparitions on Sept. 12, 2015 declaring “that the events and apparition of 1948 also known as the Marian phenomenon in Lipa and its aftermath even in recent times do exhibit supernatural character and is worthy of belief.”

Which brings the saga to this past Spring, when the archbishop once again had to revoke his statement of official approval of the supernatural nature of the apparitions.

It’s likely the first time ever that the Vatican and a local bishop have had so much back and forth over a supposed apparition, O’Neill said.
 

Giuliano

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More recently in August this year in Texas, Bishop Michael Olson had the unpleasant task of explaining to people that the "miracles" that some of them believed in were staged.

Exclusive: Fake Visionary Painted Bleeding Mary Statue With Latex, Sculptor Who Cleaned Statue Reveals | ChurchPOP

Sculptor, painter, and artist Suzanne Stack recently spoke to ChurchPOP regarding claims of miraculously bleeding statues at St. Mark Catholic Church in Argyle, Texas.

The news comes as a result of a woman claiming she is a Marian visionary.

Bishop Michael Olson of the Diocese of Fort Worth recently released a statement saying these alleged apparitions under the title of “Mystical Rose-Our Lady of Argyle” are false.

The fake visionary claims Mary, several saints, and Jesus have appeared to her at various parishes across the North Texas area since 2017.

She also claims multiple miracles occur as a result of these visions. She says rose petals miraculously appear, water mysteriously flows on the parish’s campus, she claims she has the stigmata, and that Mary statues miraculously bleed.

Suzanne Stack is a parishioner of St. Mark Catholic Church. The parish asked her to clean one of the statues in Dec. 2017. At the time, she had no idea the “visionary” existed, so she did not think to take photos of the vandalized statue.

Stack said the false visionary painted the statue as if “there was something pulsing out of the heart area.”

“When I walked into the sacristy, you could tell from the texture and by the way the light hit it, that it was latex. When I pressed my finger, it made a little dent, which meant it had been there for a little while, but it wasn’t totally hard.
 

Giuliano

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John 16:13 – Jesus promises that the Spirit will “guide” the Church into all truth. Our knowledge of the truth develops as the Spirit guides the Church, and this happens over time. You insist it's change when in fact it is development, it only appears on the surface to be change. I mean doctrinal development, not changes in rubrics or customs.
Why take that out of context like that? We can't read that about doctrines only.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

What is the Spirit hearing and then speaking to the Catholic Church? What is the Holy Spirit revealing about things to come? It seems unrealistic to me to think the Holy Spirit is guiding people in Heavenly things when they can't keep their earthly affairs in order.
 

GodsGrace

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It took arguably longer for the doctrine of Original Sin to develop, which is accepted by most Protestants. It seems like an inconsistency to me.
Protestants believe O.S. is what the early fathers taught...
It is the first sin that Adam committed that caused the sin nature to enter into the world.
We suffer from the effect of O.S.

Augustine, in the 400's taught that O.S. was passed on to every human,,,every human became culpable, personally, of Adam's sin.

The CC accepted this...I don't really know why.

The bible clearly teaches that man is responsible for his own sin and not anyone else's.

Deuteronomy 24:16 and others...
 

GodsGrace

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More recently in August this year in Texas, Bishop Michael Olson had the unpleasant task of explaining to people that the "miracles" that some of them believed in were staged.

Exclusive: Fake Visionary Painted Bleeding Mary Statue With Latex, Sculptor Who Cleaned Statue Reveals | ChurchPOP

Sculptor, painter, and artist Suzanne Stack recently spoke to ChurchPOP regarding claims of miraculously bleeding statues at St. Mark Catholic Church in Argyle, Texas.

The news comes as a result of a woman claiming she is a Marian visionary.

Bishop Michael Olson of the Diocese of Fort Worth recently released a statement saying these alleged apparitions under the title of “Mystical Rose-Our Lady of Argyle” are false.

The fake visionary claims Mary, several saints, and Jesus have appeared to her at various parishes across the North Texas area since 2017.

She also claims multiple miracles occur as a result of these visions. She says rose petals miraculously appear, water mysteriously flows on the parish’s campus, she claims she has the stigmata, and that Mary statues miraculously bleed.

Suzanne Stack is a parishioner of St. Mark Catholic Church. The parish asked her to clean one of the statues in Dec. 2017. At the time, she had no idea the “visionary” existed, so she did not think to take photos of the vandalized statue.

Stack said the false visionary painted the statue as if “there was something pulsing out of the heart area.”

“When I walked into the sacristy, you could tell from the texture and by the way the light hit it, that it was latex. When I pressed my finger, it made a little dent, which meant it had been there for a little while, but it wasn’t totally hard.
Actually G,,,this is a good practice.
The CC does confirm when it believes a miracle or apparition to be legitimate.
It carefully investigates...
for instance, Lourdes in France is accepted...
Medjugorje in Bosnia is not.

There have been thousands of miracles reported in Lourdes...
the cc investigated and has stated and confirmed that about 67 are real.
 

GodsGrace

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No one objected to infant baptism for 16 centuries. Luther and Calvin baptized infants (although Calvin rejected baptismal regeneration). After them, objection to infant baptism didn't take root until the 17th century, meaning it is a tradition of men, in the light of scriptural inferences and history. But the debate has been raging only in the last 200 years.

In 253 A.D. the Council of Carthage, condemned the opinion that baptism should be withheld from infants until the eighth day after birth. Early Christian Church, didn’t argue over whether or not to baptize infants. The argument was over whether or not parents should have to wait a full eight days before baptizing their babies. The members of the Council of Carthage, felt that requiring parents to wait the eight days before baptizing their new born babes, was asking them to wait too long.
Infant Baptism - Scripture Catholic
All good,
but my point was that the EARLY CHURCH FATHERS (or even the Apostolic Fathers) did not unanimously claim that infants HAD to be baptized till at least a couple of hundreds of years later --- and certainly not for the reason Augustine taught.

If @BreadOfLife could come up with some writings of the EARLY church fathers, it would be appreciated. I've never read anything of the sort.