Total Inability: Genesis 1-4

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atpollard

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Then we have arriving on the scene is Noah....God chose him because of his obedience to follow His Commandments.
He had ABILITY to please God and walk upright . Abraham is considered as a GREAT man of faith and is called the father of many nations. He had ABILITY to trust and obey God and it was counted unto him as being righteous. Moses....wow what an example of one with an ABILITY to be obedient to God.
Daniel....another who refused to bow down to man's laws and stayed faithful to God.
Is there any reason why Adam, Eve and Cain should not have been among the most likely candidates to be among the “whosoever” that exercises their free will and seeks God, confesses their sin and repents? So why did all of them do none of it and in fact act just as bad as the worst reprobate ... hiding, blaming God, refusing to listen, lying, never confessing and never repenting.

I posit that the reason is because they were incapable of doing right ... Just like Romans 3 and Ephesians 2 both teach. What is your explanation (other than “Ignore Adam and Eve and let’s look at Noah instead.”)

I will be happy to address Noah after we have discussed the origin of Original Sin and Total Depravity. Noah is not the origin of either, but offers some fascinating CREDOBAPTIST lessons.
 

atpollard

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atp,

I agree that John 6:44 teaches that people need to be 'drawn' by the Father to receive eternal life. However, does God only draw a select, fixed number of people for salvation?

When I examine the context of 6:37, it states, 'All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out' (ESV). That sounds like predestination, as understood by Calvinism, is signed, sealed and delivered. Only those drawn by the Father will come, but there is a handicap: the language is 'whoever comes'.

However, 6:47 states that 'whoever believes has eternal life'.

Are there limitations on God's drawing power? There certainly are according to the Presbyterian and Reformed standard in the Westminster Confession of Faith: (2) WCF 3:3-4 – Some are predestined to eternal life, others foreordained to death; this number is fixed.

There is a stumbling block in John 12:32 - so it seems: 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself’ (ESV). How can ALL people be drawn to Jesus if only the ones given by the Father - the limited number of the elect - are the drawn ones. That sounds like a contradiction to me.

Don Carson (Calvinistic commentator) gets around it with the interpretation of

Here, ‘all men’ reminds the reader of what triggered these statements, viz. the arrival of the Greeks, and means ‘all people without distinction, Jews and Gentiles alike’, not all individuals without exception, since the surrounding context has just established judgment as a major theme (v. 31) (Carson 1991:444).
That's a typical Calvinistic technique of making 'all men/people' equal 'all kinds of people and not every person in the world'.

BUT THERE'S A PROBLEM ...

John 6:37 teaches:
  • ‘all that’ refers to the mass of people, ‘each individual’;
  • The neuter ‘him that’ (‘whoever’ ESV) is ‘the neuter singular and is used as an abstract expression and as such sums up the whole mass of believers of all ages and speaks of them as a unit’ (Lenski 1943:463).
  • ‘All believers are regarded as one complete unit’ (Vincent 1887/1946:150).
Lenski considers this passage (John 6:37 ff) teaches, "the gift as having been made once for all and now being permanent as such a gift…. For all that the Father “gives to me,” Jesus says, “shall get to me … because the Father’s gift cannot possibly fail…. In v. 39 the perfect tense, “all that he has given to me,” pictures the gift from the viewpoint of the last day when Jesus will appear and will not have lost any part of the gift" (Lenski 1887/1946:464).

John 6:37 (ESV) states, 'Whoever comes to me...', so it amounts to a personal, voluntary decision, based on God's drawing (v 44) and it is because of God's grace alone. It will be effective and is capable of changing the unwilling person into the willing - not irresistible or by coercion. People can stubbornly refuse to come to Christ. But the one who comes is able to do so because of God's wonderful power of grace: 'For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people' (Titus 2:11 NIV).

John 12:32 is possible because of Jesus' gracious drawing. Everyone is drawn but because of their depraved stubbornness, it nullifies the power of grace and leads to hardening of the heart. Matt 23:37 gives an example of how this happens: 'Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often have I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!' (NRSVA)

From an examination of these verses, I conclude that the biblical emphasis is that God provides salvation, extends his grace to all people, but they can be stubborn and resist his offer. God does not have a fixed number in the list who are unconditionally elected, the only ones for whom Jesus died, and are irresistibly drawn by Jesus to salvation.

The latter view kills evangelism and makes God into the Almighty who shows favouritism to a certain few.

He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality (Rom 2:6-11 ESV).​

Oz
Good post. I am almost tempted to address your points, but “once bitten, twice shy”. So I shall pass.
 

Heart2Soul

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Is there any reason why Adam, Eve and Cain should not have been among the most likely candidates to be among the “whosoever” that exercises their free will and seeks God, confesses their sin and repents? So why did all of them do none of it and in fact act just as bad as the worst reprobate ... hiding, blaming God, refusing to listen, lying, never confessing and never repenting.

I posit that the reason is because they were incapable of doing right ... Just like Romans 3 and Ephesians 2 both teach. What is your explanation (other than “Ignore Adam and Eve and let’s look at Noah instead.”)

I will be happy to address Noah after we have discussed the origin of Original Sin and Total Depravity. Noah is not the origin of either, but offers some fascinating CREDOBAPTIST lessons.
When God placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden He gave them a commandment.....eat of any tree or plant except DO NOT EAT of the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil.
Did they do what God said? No they disobeyed on their own free will.
 

Heart2Soul

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Cain was born a sinner....being he was the seed of Adam and Eve. So Adam taught him in the ways of God as a child but Cain was overcome by envy and pride....funny how pride seems to always play into the picture. Cain knew it was wrong to murder his brother and then lie about it but he did it anyway.
 

OzSpen

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In the New Testament, many times are the people of God called the Church. So... I don't know what you mean here.

I did deal with verses like this and added a string of them as well for the very purpose of leaving you without excuse. I dealt with these kinds of passages in my previous post... please read that.

If my presuppositions are in error, by all means point out where the logic doesn't uphold. Simply saying a presupposition is wrong doesn't make it wrong; you actually need to have facts and reasons behind your claims. Again, I dealt with passages like Titus 2:11 in my last post; This refers to all KINDS of men. If we interpret it like you do, it causes Scripture to contradict other passages that speak of a specific elect people of God.

Again, your claims do not have Scripture behind them. You pull a verse here or there, but the application you present contradicts plain Scriptures elsewhere. You have claimed that I am "wrecked" by quoting passages that I dealt with in my previous post, and trying to use them in the same way that I debunked! And on top of that, you didn't actually explain WHY the Scriptures and interpretations I gave were wrong; you simply said "they're wrong" and moved on as though your beliefs were sufficient. I am not trying to be rude or anything like that; I just have a genuine care for the right dividing of the Word, and this is not at all it.

Mjh,

In the OT also, the language of 'the people of God' is used of the Israelites in verses such as Judges 20:2 and 2 Samuel 14:13. There are parallel verses in the OT where they are called 'the people of the Lord' or 'a people holy to the LORD your God'.

Oz

The people of God are identified in both OT and NT.
 

atpollard

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When God placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden He gave them a commandment.....eat of any tree or plant except DO NOT EAT of the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil.
Did they do what God said? No they disobeyed on their own free will.
Yes, they sinned of their own free will. Do you notice what they NEVER did of their own free will:
  1. Seek God with their sin.
  2. Confess their sin.
  3. Repent of their sin.
  4. Obey God in the first place by not sinning.
Yet the argument is often made to me that people today are CAPABLE of choosing, of their own free will, to seek God, confess their sin, repent of their sin and obey the commands of God as the means of accepting the grace that God offers. Does it not seem strange to suggest that we are capable of doing what Adam and Eve, who literally walked and talked with God, COULD NOT!

This suggest to me that scripture is correct ...
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE." [Rom 3:10-12]

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.” [Eph 2:1-3]


... but GOD (not “... but man”).
 
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Heart2Soul

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Yes, they sinned of their own free will. Do you notice what they NEVER did of their own free will:
  1. Seek God with their sin.
  2. Confess their sin.
  3. Repent of their sin.
  4. Obey God in the first place by not sinning.
Yet the argument is often made to me that people today are CAPABLE of choosing, of their own free will, to seek God, confess their sin, repent of their sin and obey the commands of God as the means of accepting the grace that God offers. Does it not seem strange to suggest that we are capable of doing what Adam and Eve, who literally walked and talked with God, COULD NOT!

This suggest to me that scripture is correct ...
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE." [Rom 3:10-12]

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.” [Eph 2:1-3]
I am not quite getting the full picture here....
Adam and Eve confessed their sin when God asked them "who told you that you were naked"...so they had to confess....but as all children do they tried to put the blame on others.
God had to clothe them and for their disobedience he forced them out of the Garden of Eden and placed a burden on them for what they had done......
 

prism

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I hope you now understand that there are many scholars who are evangelical and support the authority of Scripture.

You stated, 'many of them are not regenerate', but didn't give any examples, thus making it one of your assertions.
Yes I understand there are modern conservative scholars.
A number of times you spouted 'modern scholarship' without saying who, so that left me wondering are you trusting the scholars over God's Word?.
Some examples of modern scholarship I believe aren't regenerate are Bultmann, Licona, McClaren etc.
 

OzSpen

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Believe it or not, most Calvinists, including this one, firmly believe every word of that. The issue is that without the DRAW of God, natural man (that is most people) have no real interest in calling on Jesus as Lord (their Creator God, in charge) and Savior (the one responsible for saving them, rather than them deciding what seems best in their mind). That is why so many eagerly embrace every New Age religion ... they all teach “any lord but God and any savior but Jesus”.

So the fact that someone, like you or I, WANTS to call on God means that God has placed that desire in our hearts. We have been drawn to want Jesus.

But you redefine 'whosoever' to make it a fixed number of the elect, predestined before the world began. That's not the meaning of 'πᾶς γὰρ ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται....' in Rom 10:13 (THGNT). That phrase, 'pas gar hos an apikalesetai...,' (quoting from Joel 2:32) means 'for everyone whoever shall call...' 'Whoever' makes it as general (not fixed in number) as is possible in Greek. 'Whomsoever/anyone' who 'shall call upon the name of the Lord 'shall be saved' (v. 9).

To turn 'whoever' into a predestination doctrine does violence to the biblical text.

Who will God the Father and Jesus draw? John 12:32 is critical to answer that question: 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself' (ESV). 'Everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved' (Acts 2:21 ESV)

Oz
 

OzSpen

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Yes I understand there are modern conservative scholars.
A number of times you spouted 'modern scholarship' without saying who, so that left me wondering are you trusting the scholars over God's Word?.
Some examples of modern scholarship I believe aren't regenerate are Bultmann, Licona, McClaren etc.

Please understand that I'm committed to the authority of Scripture. However, without linguistic scholars in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek we would not have any Bible translations.

God has placed this requirement on all people. Those who listened to Paul had to practise it: 'Now these [Berean] Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so' (Acts 17:11 ESV).

The Bereans had to check out Paul with the Scriptures and they didn't have the Book in printed form. It was in MSS and many people were illiterate.

I have read my share of the false teachings of Bultmann, Barth, Tillich, Crossan, Spong, Borg, Funk, other Jesus Seminar heretics, Bart Ehrman, J A T Robinson, John Hick, etc. However, that has made me stronger in my faith as I see the error in their theologies.

You seem to forget that God gave teachers to the church (1 Cor 12; Eph 4) and some of those are evangelical scholars.

Oz
 

prism

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You seem to forget that God gave teachers to the church (1 Cor 12; Eph 4) and some of those are evangelical scholars.
I have trouble with those who assume things like this. I never spoke against scholarship, just some types of it.
 

Earburner

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Believe it or not, most Calvinists, including this one, firmly believe every word of that. The issue is that without the DRAW of God, natural man (that is most people) have no real interest in calling on Jesus as Lord (their Creator God, in charge) and Savior (the one responsible for saving them, rather than them deciding what seems best in their mind). That is why so many eagerly embrace every New Age religion ... they all teach “any lord but God and any savior but Jesus”.

So the fact that someone, like you or I, WANTS to call on God means that God has placed that desire in our hearts. We have been drawn to want Jesus.
You mean, that by our free will, we heard Him "knocking", and THEN WE opened the door.
To that, I agree.
 

atpollard

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But you redefine 'whosoever' to make it a fixed number of the elect, predestined before the world began. That's not the meaning of 'πᾶς γὰρ ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται....' in Rom 10:13 (THGNT). That phrase, 'pas gar hos an apikalesetai...,' (quoting from Joel 2:32) means 'for everyone whoever shall call...' 'Whoever' makes it as general (not fixed in number) as is possible in Greek. 'Whomsoever/anyone' who 'shall call upon the name of the Lord 'shall be saved' (v. 9).

To turn 'whoever' into a predestination doctrine does violence to the biblical text.

Who will God the Father and Jesus draw? John 12:32 is critical to answer that question: 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself' (ESV). 'Everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved' (Acts 2:21 ESV)

Oz
How do you define "these" and "those" as in "... those who are called according to [His] purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." [Rom 8:28-30]

"whosoever" = "these" and "those"
 

atpollard

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You mean, that by our free will, we heard Him "knocking", and THEN WE opened the door.
To that, I agree.
As long as you are willing to consider that God "knocking" can sometimes look like Saul on the road to Damascus with ""we open the door" being closer to "Yes, Sir." :)
 

OzSpen

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How do you define "these" and "those" as in "... those who are called according to [His] purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." [Rom 8:28-30]

"whosoever" = "these" and "those"

You avoided dealing with the issues I raised and gave me a red herring, flipping over to what you want to talk about (Rom 8:28-30).

I repeat:

That phrase, 'pas gar hos an apikalesetai...,' (quoting from Joel 2:32) means 'for everyone whoever shall call...' 'Whoever' makes it as general (not fixed in number) as is possible in Greek. 'Whomsoever/anyone' who 'shall call upon the name of the Lord 'shall be saved' (v. 9).​
 
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atpollard

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I am not quite getting the full picture here....
Adam and Eve confessed their sin when God asked them "who told you that you were naked"...so they had to confess....but as all children do they tried to put the blame on others.
God had to clothe them and for their disobedience he forced them out of the Garden of Eden and placed a burden on them for what they had done......
Let's run this as a modern exercise in evangelism. You get to play the Holy Spirit filled Evangelist (God in Acts 3) and I will play the sinner (Adam in Acts 3).

[evangelist]: "We both know that you sinned, so just confess and repent and God will forgive you."

[sinner]: "Alright, you caught me. Yes I did sin, but it wasn't really my fault because God set this whole thing up. I was entrapped. My sin is really God's fault."

[evangelist]: "Well as long as you are sorry."

[sinner]: "Yeah, whatever."

So as the evangelist, do you walk away confident that another soul has CHOSEN (of their own free will) to be saved ... or do you leave praying for that particular sinner?

In Acts 3:
I do not see any decision by Adam to seek God (God MADE Adam come).
I do not see any free will choice by Adam to confess (God MADE Adam confess.)
I do not see any repentance by Adam (he blamed others but NEVER took responsibility).
... That does not describe a "free will" salvation, that describes salvation according to Calvinism (sinners incapable of choosing God being DRAWN by God).
 

atpollard

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You avoided dealing with the issues I raised and gave me a red herring, flipping over to what you want to talk about (Rom 8:28-30).

I repeat:

That phrase, 'pas gar hos an apikalesetai...,' (quoting from Joel 2:32) means 'for everyone whoever shall call...' 'Whoever' makes it as general (not fixed in number) as is possible in Greek. 'Whomsoever/anyone' who 'shall call upon the name of the Lord 'shall be saved' (v. 9).​
Twice bitten ... talk to the HAND!