Philippians 2:12

CharismaticLady · Sep 5, 2019

marks said:
Again, I think we may have crossed wires . . .

We assent to God's command to believe in Jesus, desiring the new life offered. Then God gives us rebirth, including giving us that new mind of Christ.

I think people often go into salvation with the OT idea of repentance, I have to stop the bad I'm doing, but then find themselves recipients of the NT repentance, as they are given a new mind with their new life in Christ.

Sorry if somehow I was being confusing!

Much love!

Maybe we are confusing each other, but I don't know any better way to say it.

Going for coffee. See you later!

justbyfaith · Sep 5, 2019

Grailhunter said:
No Laws will be added, no Laws will be taken away. Not even a single letter will change. They will remain in effect until all things are accomplished........for anyone that is in the Old Covenant.....for the Jews, not us.

I would add that Gentiles are also under the OT law if they are unredeemed or attempting to earn their salvation by works (Galatians 3:23). For the law is the standard of righteousness that the Lord has given; and by it is the knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20). Sin is also the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). Therefore Jew and Gentile alike, sin, when they transgress the law; and this means that Gentiles also are under the law (though believers in Christ aren't; whether they be Jew or Gentile).

The law is a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ; and after faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster (Galatians 3:24-25). Nevertheless, we retain the lessons that the schoolmaster taught us. In Hebrews 8:8-10 and Hebrews 10:16, we find that the law is written on the hearts and in the minds of those who are under the new covenant; and therefore the law governs us from the inside, as being written on fleshy tables of human hearts. However, as believers we are not under the law, are dead to the law, and are delivered from the law (Romans 6:14, 7:4, 7:6, Galatians 2:19). Therefore the law no longer has the power to condemn us from the outside, as being written on tablets of stone. For we are forgiven of past, present, and future sin(s). This last thing is predicated on the fact that we are born again of the Holy Spirit and therefore desire to obey Jesus.

Grailhunter said:
Those that would want to bring the Mosaic Law into Christianity has to take up arms against the NT scriptures.

There is a place for the law in NT Christianity. But I will say that as believers in Christ, we are no longer bound to the letter but are obedient to the spirit of the law (Romans 7:6).

charity · Sep 5, 2019

Grailhunter said:
Well Charity, was this thread successful? Did it answer your questions?

Hello @Grailhunter,

In entry #185 I said what I thought of what the thread has become, and have since not followed the debate. It was derailed by Davy, on page one, and he has held sway ever since.

I had no questions of my own to answer, just raised one or two held by others.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Grailhunter · Sep 5, 2019

charity said:
Hello @Grailhunter,

In entry #185 I said what I thought of what the thread has become, and have since not followed the debate. It was derailed by Davy, on page one, and he has held sway ever since.

I had no questions of my own to answer, just raised one or two held by others.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Thanks Chris...God Bless.

justbyfaith · Sep 5, 2019

edited #262.

Grailhunter · Sep 5, 2019

justbyfaith said:
edited #262.

Hey no fair!

Nancy · Sep 5, 2019

charity said:
'Wherefore, my beloved,
as ye have always obeyed,
not as in my presence only,
but now much more in my absence,
work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you
both to will and to do of His good pleasure.'
(Philippians 2:12)

Hello there,

This verse creates a problem in the minds of some, because, a) it appears to link salvation with works, and, b) that it appears to teach that we need to be in 'fear and trembling' before God. But, can salvation be earned by good works? & Should we be in 'fear and trembling' before our loving Heavenly Father?

* The first thing we should note, is that the words written, are, 'work out your salvation', and not, 'work for your salvation'. This makes a difference doesn't it? For there is a great difference between working 'for' something, and working 'out' something.

* Salvation is a free gift, given by God to all who have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, as the One Who died for their sins. However, once salvation has been 'received', it needs to be worked out. See Ephesians 2:8-10:-

'For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are His workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.'
(Ephesians 2:8-10)

* Paul makes clear that salvation cannot be secured by works. He tells us, 'a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the law and the prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. ... For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.' (Romans 3:21, 22 & 28)

* The, 'working out' of salvation, is working out in practice what God has already 'worked in' by His almighty power and grace: by walking before Him as those who are walking in newness of life, by faith; energised by His Spirit, in Christ Jesus. Seeking to please Him, and honour Him in our walk and witness, as those whose sins have been forgiven, and have the hope of eternal life in Christ Jesus their Lord.

* The 'fear and trembling' spoken of in this verse, is a reverential attitude towards God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure: for God's perfect love casts out all fear.

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Good word Chris,
The "fear and trembling" scripture used to throw me. I now see it as you have mentioned above, reverential fear. Unbelievers should be trembling just like Satan does...but, we, being His children are to "boldly" approach His throne, and how could we ever dare to do that if we're full of fear and trembling?
If we are disobedient then, I suppose there would be fear and trembling if one of God's children does not repent...and for good reason, He will chastise until the sin/sins are repented of...think I would rather be in good standing with our Father in Heaven

In Him forever!
nancy

Grailhunter · Sep 5, 2019

justbyfaith said:
I would add that Gentiles are also under the OT law if they are unredeemed or attempting to earn their salvation by works (Galatians 3:23). For the law is the standard of righteousness that the Lord has given; and by it is the knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20). Sin is also the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). Therefore Jew and Gentile alike, sin, when they transgress the law; and this means that Gentiles also are under the law (though believers in Christ aren't; whether they be Jew or Gentile).

The law is a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ; and after faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster (Galatians 3:24-25). Nevertheless, we retain the lessons that the schoolmaster taught us. In Hebrews 8:8-10 and Hebrews 10:16, we find that the law is written on the hearts and in the minds of those who are under the new covenant; and therefore the law governs us from the inside, as being written on fleshy tables of human hearts. However, as believers we are not under the law, are dead to the law, and are delivered from the law (Romans 6:14, 7:4, 7:6, Galatians 2:19). Therefore the law no longer has the power to condemn us from the outside, as being written on tablets of stone. For we are forgiven of past, present, and future sin(s). This last thing is predicated on the fact that we are born again of the Holy Spirit and therefore desire to obey Jesus.

There is a place for the law in NT Christianity. But I will say that as believers in Christ, we are no longer bound to the letter but are obedient to the spirit of the law (Romans 7:6).

There is a place for the law in NT Christianity. But I will say that as believers in Christ, we are no longer bound to the letter but are obedient to the spirit of the law (Romans 7:6).
Man you have to be kidding me? right? lol You are not obedient to the spirit of the Mosaic Law! You probably do not know the Mosaic Law! Go through the 613 Mosaic Laws and put a check mark by each you intend to follow! When you are in Romans, Paul is tell you in every possible way that you are not of the Law and in Romans you pluck a couple words out a of a scripture. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. It means we serve in newness of spirit for Christianity not followers in the Law in any way.

CharismaticLady · Sep 5, 2019

Grailhunter said:
There is a place for the law in NT Christianity. But I will say that as believers in Christ, we are no longer bound to the letter but are obedient to the spirit of the law (Romans 7:6).
Man you have to be kidding me? right? lol You are not obedient to the spirit of the Mosaic Law! You probably do not know the Mosaic Law! Go through the 613 Mosaic Laws and put a check mark by each you intend to follow! When you are in Romans, Paul is tell you in every possible way that you are not of the Law and in Romans you pluck a couple words out a of a scripture. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. It means we serve in newness of spirit for Christianity not followers in the Law in any way.

Why are you fighting? You are saying the same thing.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Not being under the OT Law does not make us lawless, Paul says we establish the law. What Jesus has done is freed us from the bondage of the old SIN NATURE. He has given us power to partake of the DIVINE NATURE.

Grailhunter · Sep 5, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
Why are you fighting? You are saying the same thing.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Not being under the OT Law does not make us lawless, Paul says we establish the law. What Jesus has done is freed us from the bondage of the old SIN NATURE. He has given us power to partake of the DIVINE NATURE.

Oh not fighting!!! Humor with JBF. He knows I like him. I started a thread on Judaizers.

justbyfaith · Sep 5, 2019

Grailhunter said:
There is a place for the law in NT Christianity. But I will say that as believers in Christ, we are no longer bound to the letter but are obedient to the spirit of the law (Romans 7:6).
Man you have to be kidding me? right? lol You are not obedient to the spirit of the Mosaic Law! You probably do not know the Mosaic Law! Go through the 613 Mosaic Laws and put a check mark by each you intend to follow! When you are in Romans, Paul is tell you in every possible way that you are not of the Law and in Romans you pluck a couple words out a of a scripture. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. It means we serve in newness of spirit for Christianity not followers in the Law in any way.

Read Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16.

Romans 7:6 means that we are obedient to the spirit of the law as this is defined in the New Testament (by such passages as Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, and 2 John 1:6).

This does not mean adhering to the letter (such as wearing tzitzit and tallit and tefilin) but walking in love as Christ commanded.

justbyfaith · Sep 5, 2019

Davy said:
In Romans 7, Apostle Paul is showing us that while we are in yet in this flesh body, we cannot escape sin,

Davy said:
Romans 7 shows no matter how hard we try not to sin while in this flesh, we still are going to slip up at times,

There is a second benefit (2 Corinthians 1:15) that the Lord can bestow upon you, when you come to the end of self and surrender all to Him, wherein you become "born of God" and as a result "cannot sin." (1 John 3:9). The Lord is able to "sanctify you wholly" (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24); even to "perfect you for ever" (Hebrews 10:14). He is "able to keep you from falling" (Jude 1:24) so that "there is none occasion of stumbling in you" (1 John 2:10) and so that you will "never fall" (2 Peter 1:10).

Davy said:
To not recognize this basic Christian Doctrine from The New Testament is to go the way of lawlessness, and become an apostate.

What basic Christian doctrine? I would say that the doctrine that I would identify as the inevitability of sin is a false doctrine, even heresy. But it is taught in many churches today.

Grailhunter · Sep 6, 2019

justbyfaith said:
Read Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16.

Romans 7:6 means that we are obedient to the spirit of the law as this is defined in the New Testament (by such passages as Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, and 2 John 1:6).

This does not mean adhering to the letter (such as wearing tzitzit and tallit and tefilin) but walking in love as Christ commanded.

I understood what you meant. Not being rude to you. You should be more concerned with the Laws of Christ. If we get into the conversion of the spirit of the Mosaic Law, there is very little good to say about that. Save us both the trouble. Get a list of the 613 Mosaic Laws and start a thread and we can go through them one by one and look carefully at the "spirit" of the Mosaic Law. If you look at them and know what they mean, you will never open the thread. Some feel that they are defending God when they talk them up. I am not accusing you of being a Judaizer, you are talking about the spirit of the Mosaic Law...I get that....I am saying go have a look see....98% of the Mosaic Law is examples of how not to be a Christian. Christ was the fulfillment of the Law, not the continuance of it. The last thing we want is the spirit of the Law in Christianity.

justbyfaith · Sep 6, 2019

Jesus defined the spirit of the law in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew chapters 5-7) and the Sermon on the Plain (Luke 6:20-49), if you want to confine it to specific commandments given.

Of course, the Sermon on the Mount tells us that one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass away from the OT law until heaven and earth pass away. If we obey the least of these commandments and teach others so, we will be called great. If we disobey the least of the commandments, and teach other so, we will be called least.

This indicates to me that the least of the commandments in the OT are valid as a definition for sin (see Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4).

Of course no one is justified through law-keeping. We can only be saved through faith in Jesus Christ and His shed blood.

However, if anyone is attempting to save themselves through their obedience/good works/law-keeping, they must keep every letter of it perfectly from conception into eternity (Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48). For nothing will pass away from the standard until heaven and earth pass away.

The spirit of the law is also a standard of obedience that can only be kept in the power of the Spirit; and it is also written on our hearts and minds as those who are under the new covenant (Hebrews 8:8-10)

Grailhunter · Sep 6, 2019

justbyfaith said:
Jesus defined the spirit of the law in the Sermon on the Mount and the Sermon on the Plain, if you want to confine it to specific commandments given.

Of course, the Sermon on the Mount tells us that one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law until heaven and earth pass away. If we obey the least of these commandments and teach others so, we will be called great. if we disobey the least of the commandments, and teach other so, we will be called least.

This indicates to me that the least of the commandments in the OT are valid as a definition for sin (see Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4).

Of course no one is justified through law-keeping. We can only be saved through faith in Jesus Christ and His shed blood.

However, if anyone is attempting to save themselves through their obedience/good works/law-keeping, they must keep every letter of it perfectly from conception into eternity (Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48). For nothing will pass away from the standard until heaven and earth pass away.

The spirit of the law is also a standard of obedience that can only be kept in the power of the Spirit; and it is also written on our hearts and minds as those who are under the new covenant (Hebrews 8:8-10)

Again...the Law will not change and it is for the Jews. Go take a look at it.

justbyfaith · Sep 6, 2019

Grailhunter said:
Again...the Law will not change and it is for the Jews. Go take a look at it.

You have your opinion, I have mine.

I believe that the author of Hebrews wrote that because there is a change in priesthood, there is of necessity also a change of law (Hebrews 7:12).

charity · Sep 6, 2019

'The entrance of Thy words giveth light;
it giveth understanding unto the simple.'
(Psa 119:130)

'For the wages of sin is death;
but the gift of God is eternal life
through Jesus Christ our Lord.'
(Rom 6:23)

Hello there,

I just praise God that He has enlightened my eyes, and showed me that I am a sinner. That He has saved me from sin and it's penalty by dying in my place, that I through faith in His sacrificial offering for sin, may be saved from sin's penalty, and receive the gift of eternal life through Him.

* I praise God that the gifts and calling of God are 'without repentance' (Romans 11:29): in other words He will not take that gift of life away from me. I can lose the prize for faithfulness and enduring to the end: but cannot lose the gift of life that He has promised. For He is faithful and will do it.

* That has been done. I am saved by grace. I am now, in His sight, 'Holy and without blame', for His righteousness has been imputed to me. and I am assured (by His Word) that the work that He has begun in me, He will continue to do until the day of Christ. I am 'accepted in the Beloved', and reckoned 'complete in Christ' (Ephesians 1). God has done that, in and through the shed blood of His only Son.

* His will has been done in regard to myself, and all who have been similarly enlightened: and no amount of debate, and contrary opinion will alter that fact.

Praise His Holy Name!

A sinner saved by God's wondrous grace!
Observe, O heavens! and wonder at the manifold wisdom of God! (Ephesians 3:10)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

'And this I pray,
that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
That ye may approve things that are excellent;
that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ,
unto the glory and praise of God.'
(Philippians 1:9-11)

CharismaticLady · Sep 6, 2019

Grailhunter said:
Oh not fighting!!! Humor with JBF. He knows I like him. I started a thread on Judaizers.

Sorry, I thought the highlighted part at the top of your post was you quoting someone else and it seemed like you agree, unless those were your words. I didn't actually see the other post as I have JBF on ignore.

CharismaticLady · Sep 6, 2019

Grailhunter said:
The last thing we want is the spirit of the Law in Christianity.

Are you kidding?

Romans 7:6
But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

justbyfaith · Sep 6, 2019

charity said:
'The entrance of Thy words giveth light;
it giveth understanding unto the simple.'
(Psa 119:130)

'For the wages of sin is death;
but the gift of God is eternal life
through Jesus Christ our Lord.'
(Rom 6:23)

Hello there,

I just praise God that He has enlightened my eyes, and showed me that I am a sinner. That He has saved me from sin and it's penalty by dying in my place, that I through faith in His sacrificial offering for sin, may be saved from sin's penalty, and receive the gift of eternal life through Him.

* I praise God that the gifts and calling of God are 'without repentance' (Romans 11:29): in other words He will not take that gift of life away from me. I can lose the prize for faithfulness and enduring to the end: but cannot lose the gift of life that He has promised. For He is faithful and will do it.

* That has been done. I am saved by grace. I am now, in His sight, 'Holy and without blame', for His righteousness has been imputed to me. and I am assured (by His Word) that the work that He has begun in me, He will continue to do until the day of Christ. I am 'accepted in the Beloved', and reckoned 'complete in Christ' (Ephesians 1). God has done that, in and through the shed blood of His only Son.

* His will has been done in regard to myself, and all who have been similarly enlightened: and no amount of debate, and contrary opinion will alter that fact.

Praise His Holy Name!

A sinner saved by God's wondrous grace!
Observe, O heavens! and wonder at the manifold wisdom of God! (Ephesians 3:10)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

'And this I pray,
that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
That ye may approve things that are excellent;
that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ,
unto the glory and praise of God.'
(Philippians 1:9-11)

Romans 6:23 has as its context Romans 6:22. It declares that the end is everlasting life when we begin to walk in freedom from sin and bear fruit unto holiness.

And, therefore, in Romans 6:23, "the wages of sin is death" is not nullified by "the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

The wages of sin continues to be death.

The gift of God has to do with being set free from the power of sin; and the end is everlasting life, according to these holy scriptures.

Philippians 2:12

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