Total Inability: Genesis 1-4

Heart2Soul · Sep 6, 2019

atpollard said:
Let's run this as a modern exercise in evangelism. You get to play the Holy Spirit filled Evangelist (God in Acts 3) and I will play the sinner (Adam in Acts 3).

[evangelist]: "We both know that you sinned, so just confess and repent and God will forgive you."

[sinner]: "Alright, you caught me. Yes I did sin, but it wasn't really my fault because God set this whole thing up. I was entrapped. My sin is really God's fault."

[evangelist]: "Well as long as you are sorry."

[sinner]: "Yeah, whatever."

So as the evangelist, do you walk away confident that another soul has CHOSEN (of their own free will) to be saved ... or do you leave praying for that particular sinner?

In Acts 3:
I do not see any decision by Adam to seek God (God MADE Adam come).
I do not see any free will choice by Adam to confess (God MADE Adam confess.)
I do not see any repentance by Adam (he blamed others but NEVER took responsibility).
... That does not describe a "free will" salvation, that describes salvation according to Calvinism (sinners incapable of choosing God being DRAWN by God).

Well we sure got a whole lot of jews in the OT who turned from God and began worshipping idols....Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because it was so wicked....
Wicked nations who tried to destroy what God had blessed learned some hard lessons, coming against God in our free will to choose to reject Him doesn't bother near as much as coming against His chosen and anointed ones.
Anyway....I have a different understanding of what free will is than you do so I don't think we can satisfy each other's questions with the appropriate answer so will bow out.
God Bless..hope you find the answers you seek.

GodsGrace · Sep 6, 2019

atpollard said:
Let's run this as a modern exercise in evangelism. You get to play the Holy Spirit filled Evangelist (God in Acts 3) and I will play the sinner (Adam in Acts 3).

[evangelist]: "We both know that you sinned, so just confess and repent and God will forgive you."

[sinner]: "Alright, you caught me. Yes I did sin, but it wasn't really my fault because God set this whole thing up. I was entrapped. My sin is really God's fault."

[evangelist]: "Well as long as you are sorry."

[sinner]: "Yeah, whatever."

So as the evangelist, do you walk away confident that another soul has CHOSEN (of their own free will) to be saved ... or do you leave praying for that particular sinner?

In Acts 3:
I do not see any decision by Adam to seek God (God MADE Adam come).
I do not see any free will choice by Adam to confess (God MADE Adam confess.)
I do not see any repentance by Adam (he blamed others but NEVER took responsibility).
... That does not describe a "free will" salvation, that describes salvation according to Calvinism (sinners incapable of choosing God being DRAWN by God).

You never replied to my very long posts to you.
I don't really expect you to reply to it all..

But you always bring up free will, which everything hinges upon, I think.

What I'd like you to answer is when was free will taken away?
YOU THINK you've answered, but you haven't.

You said that A and E had free will when God created them.
God gave them preternatural gifts that were taken away.
Immortality
Infused Knowledge
Absence of Sin Nature

PRETERNATURAL GIFTS

Definition
Favors granted by God above and beyond the powers or capacities of the nature that receives them but not beyond those of all created nature. Such gifts perfect nature but do not carry it beyond the limits of created nature. They include three great privileges to which human beings have no title--infused knowledge, absence of concupiscence, and bodily immortality. Adam and Eve possessed these gifts before the Fall.

source: Dictionary : PRETERNATURAL GIFTS

You can look this up yourself....There are no other gifts given that were supernatural.

This preternatural gifts were LOST when Adam sinned and the human race fell as a result.

As you can see...FREE WILL was NOT a preternatural gift.
Free Will was NOT lost,,,it remained with Adam, Eve and their offspring.

OR
Did God cause Cain to kill Abel,,,
and THEN God became mad at Cain...
So God caused Cain to kill and then became mad at Cain for doing what God MADE HIM DO?

Taken · Sep 6, 2019

atpollard said:
Nobody ever does, but at the same time they also offer no explanation for the statement in John 6:44 that the “drawn” by the Father are also “raised” by the Son ... while claiming “every individual without exception” is drawn and rejecting “some people from every tribe, tongue and nation” are drawn.

Regarding Drawn, Called, Responding, or Rejecting.

NO relationship can become established....WiTHOUT the agreement of TWO parties.

Many are called....<--- that is Gods Action.
Few are chosen....<----that is Gods Action.

The Calling is About...an invitation to Form a Relationship....WITH GOD.

Those who are CALLED....and themselves WANT a relationship ..... WITH GOD....RESPOND..."BY" that individual "HEARING" "READING" Learning "ABOUT" God...(OT men)...the promise of God of a Messiah (OT men)...the promise of God fulfilled...(NT and forward men)...when Jesus appeared ON the earth.

(It is not unlike any person wanting a relationship with another person...they approach, they introduce themselves, they tell about themselves, they express a desire to call on them....and the other person CAN respond or brush them off.)

Like WiTH God...(an a person and person)...
Learning "ABOUT" GOD....and a person learning "ABOUT" another person...
PEOPLE are being "ENLIGHTENED" to the Knowledge..."ABOUT" God...or "ABOUT" the other person.
PEOPLE are forming OPINIONS...
They LIKE this about God...
They DON'T LIKE that about God...
They LIKE this about the other person.
They DON'T LIKE that about the other person.

The Individual .... thereafter Decides and CHOOSES....to FORM a relationship WITH God, WITH the other person.....OR NOT.

A person who CHOOSES to form a Relationship with GOD....has Chosen To do so.

Scripture calls that..the man having MADE AN ELECTION of God.
1 Thes 1
[4] Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

Regarding...Gods IDEA/PLAN/WILL/Revealing

Thee "WORD" of God is called "Thee Son of God".
Thee "WORD" of God came Forth OUT FROM Gods MOUTH, IN the (OT), and was HEARD by men.

Thee "WORD" of God came Forth OUT FROM Gods MOUTH,
ISA 55:11
In the (NT), and was HEARD and SEEN (in the fashion AS A MAN), by earthly men.
Thee "WORD" of God, was DECLARED by God, that He SHALL be CALLED...
THEE Son of God and BY the NAME JESUS.

Thee Son of God, called by the NAME JESUS...was LATER REVEALED..."IS" the fulfillment of Gods PROMISE, FOR MEN TO "HEAR".....AND...."SEE"....God IN A FASHION of the LIKENESS of earthly men.

The FULFILLMENT revealed...Jesus, the Son of God............IS "THEE" Christ Messiah.

Scripture reveals...."THEE" Christ, "IS" the "POWER" of God...."IS" the "WISDOM" of God.

1 Cor 1
[24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Scripture reveals....ALL things are "OF" God...and "BY" Christ the Lord Jesus.

Which is to say....Every IDEA, THOUGHT, PLAN, INTENT, of God.......IS "OF" God and ACCOMPLISHED...."BY" Gods "POWER"...(which IS Spirit).

We can READ in the very BEGINNING...
ABOUT Gods "IDEA" of Creating the Heavens (Gods Throne and Habitat "FOR" Holy Angels.) And Gods "IDEA" of Creating the Earth For a Habit of His Created "MANKIND".
And HOW the POWER "OF" God, caused these thing to come into fruition "BY" Gods Power, WHO is called Christ Jesus.

Gen.1
[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

OF God, BY Gods Spirit (POWER).

And further...verification...

John 1
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Glory to God,
Taken

Taken · Sep 6, 2019

`atpollard ~

Regarding "RAISING UP ALL"...

EVERY individual who has EVER been NATURALLY Born...
1) was FORMED in the womb, by Gods hand.
2) was Wonderfully MADE, with the parts necessary to inhabit the earth that was created for mans habitat.
3) was FORMED and MADE with a heart, organs, a mind, nerves, bones, flesh, etc...
4) including the skin, ears, nose, tongue, eyes.

AND then GOD gave that BODY...the GIFT of Gods BREATH...(the act of a man Receiving a SOUL)...and ....

The BLOOD (which is the LIFE "of" a man), began FLOWING, beating the Heart....and
What we call "the Senses"...
The Touch of the skin,
The Hearing of the ears,
The Smell of the nose,
The Taste and speech of the tongue,
The Sight of the eyes....
ALL BECAME MADE ACTIVELY ALIVE, with GODS Breath of LIFE.

BODIES WITHOUT "IT"S" LIFE, which is "IT'S" BLOOD...is a DEAD BODY. A physically DEAD BODY.
Gen 9:4

And ALL physical BODIES, "SHALL DIE".
God REQUIRES ALL physicaly bodies to BECOME DEAD.
Gen 9:5

The soul, (Life of and from God)...DEPARTS a physically DEAD BODY.

The SENSES...touch, hearing, smell, tastes, speech, sight....CONTINUE IN a soul Departed OUT of a physically DEAD BODY.

The man WHO has become Converted "IN" Christ....his soul...and the senses thereof..are freed from the his soul BEING SEPARATED FROM God...and freed from his soul being Subject to Destruction. such a man is called having a restored soul AND called Saved unto thee Lord God.

Such a man ^^ has also receive the SEED of God...which has effected THAT man being "born "OF" God"...and accounted as "a" "son of God".... Which is Effected (ie. MADE possible) "BY" the POWER of God...which is (Christ)....and CHRIST WHO IS ALSO...
THE "SEED" of God.

Luke 8
[11] Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Gal 3
[16]...He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The man WHO (while his soul was IN his Living body ) REJECTED Christ Jesus...
His BODY DIES...rots, returns to DUST.
His soul, (with it's living senses) Becomes separated from God...IN HELL...(called dead to God).
Such souls...WAIT...for their (unglorified) BODIES to BE RAISED...their soul returned to their Body....and then they are JUDGED....and SENTENCED.

(Souls having departed their dead bodies, "IN CHRIST"...WAIT....IN HEAVEN...for their bodies to be RAISED...their souls reunited with their BODY.........AND their spirits, [also waiting in heaven) having been born again with Gods SEED, also reunited with their BODIES... HOWEVER the RAISING OF THEIR BODIES....is UNLIKE the bodies (who are raised up...and WITHOUT Christ"...
Their Bodies are RAISED in GLORY....
Raised CHANGED...without Corruption.
Raised CHANGED...tO IMMORTAL.)

A man NOT IN Christ...shall be Raised IN DAMNINATION...without putting on incorruption...withou putting on immortality.
They are raised to Judgement according to the RECORD...of their NAME NOT appearing IN the Lambs book of Life....and their NAME NOT appearing the Gods BOOK oF LIFE...(by their name having been BLOTTED OUT0
There is no RECORD of Evidence their LIFE...thus the LIFE of God Breaths in their soul...shall depart and RETURN to God...
And their soul and body DESTROYED.

John 5:29
[29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Of course Scripture is more detailed in the Knowledge of Gods Word...

But inanutshell...every individual is individually accountable Word his own choices and elections....and the power of God shall raise up every individual that they stand in Judgement to receive their sentence....OF forever Being WITH thee Lord God...OF
Forever being WITHOUT thee Lord God.

Glory to God,
Taken

Mjh29 · Sep 6, 2019

OzSpen said:
Mjh,

In the OT also, the language of 'the people of God' is used of the Israelites in verses such as Judges 20:2 and 2 Samuel 14:13. There are parallel verses in the OT where they are called 'the people of the Lord' or 'a people holy to the LORD your God'.

Oz

The people of God are identified in both OT and NT.

I never denied this. The people of God from the beginning have been the church. This also does not speak to any of the other points that I made; points that you claimed were errant and have yet to give any reason WHY.

Mjh29 · Sep 6, 2019

OzSpen said:
You avoided dealing with the issues I raised and gave me a red herring, flipping over to what you want to talk about (Rom 8:28-30).

I repeat:

That phrase, 'pas gar hos an apikalesetai...,' (quoting from Joel 2:32) means 'for everyone whoever shall call...' 'Whoever' makes it as general (not fixed in number) as is possible in Greek. 'Whomsoever/anyone' who 'shall call upon the name of the Lord 'shall be saved' (v. 9).

Simple. This verse is correct; Anyone and everyone who truly calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved... but only God can make a man willing to call on Him. It takes an intervention by God before any man will come to Him. You read into this verse the presuppositions that all men have the ability to call in and of themselves, when the Scriptures clearly teach that men in and of themselves have only the ability to sin.

Enoch111 · Sep 6, 2019

WE HAVE THREE CALVINISTIC FALLACIES RIGHT HERE

Mjh29 said:
but only God can make a man willing to call on Him.

1. God compels no one to be saved (Rev 22:17).

2. God INVITES all to be saved (Isa 45:22)

It takes an intervention by God before any man will come to Him

3. God intervenes by having preachers preach the Gospel so that saving faith is generated in the hearts and minds of sinners (all of Romans 10).

As I have pointed out several times, Calvinists simply dismiss the power of the Gospel, and falsely teach that sinners are regenerated BEFORE they are saved!

OzSpen · Sep 6, 2019

atpollard said:
Twice bitten ... talk to the HAND!

That's not a responsible reply.

Enoch111 · Sep 6, 2019

OzSpen said:
That's not a responsible reply.

Do you really expect responsible responses from Calvinists? As far as I'm concerned Five Point Calvinism itself is totally irresponsible, since it turn the Gospel on its head.

OzSpen · Sep 6, 2019

Mjh29 said:
Simple. This verse is correct; Anyone and everyone who truly calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved... but only God can make a man willing to call on Him. It takes an intervention by God before any man will come to Him. You read into this verse the presuppositions that all men have the ability to call in and of themselves, when the Scriptures clearly teach that men in and of themselves have only the ability to sin.

It's not my personally developed presupposition. There's no hint of a human being being made willing by God in what I've stated.

This is what the Bible teaches, but I don't expect your Calvinism to accept it:

John 12:32, 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself’ (NIV). It states 'all people' and NOT 'all kinds of people';
Titus 2:11, 'For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people' (NIV). God's grace extends to all people and not an 'elect' few.
1 John 2:2, 'He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world'. Jesus' propitiation was not for the elect but 'for the sins of the whole world'.
Matt 23:37, '‘Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing'. Free will to reject God's wooing is here taught.

Oz

Mjh29 · Sep 6, 2019

Enoch111 said:
. God compels no one to be saved (Rev 22:17).

Here we have 3 Arminian assumptions.

1.) Rev 22:17 -- This does not mean that the Spirit of God does not compel. You read that into the verse by saying "Oh, the Spirit says come; that must mean a choice made completely apart from the work of the Spirit." Your views of plain Scripture are warped by your self-salvation theology; trying desperately to find a way for man to save himself, when the verse never references a choice. Here is what the Scriptures say

~ Romans 8:14
~ 1 Corinthians 2:10-13
~ 1 Corinthians 6:11
~ 1 Corinthians 12:3
~ John 1:12-13
~ John 3:3-8
~ Titus 3:5
~John 5:21
~ Ephesians 2:1
~ Ephesians 2:5

The Scriptures say that it is only of the Spirit that one chooses, or one comes in this case; not of man. Again, the assumption is inserted that it is 100% man when the verse says "come" when in reality men run the other way naturally according to the Scriptures.

Enoch111 said:
2. God INVITES all to be saved (Isa 45:22)

He invites all KINDS of men without racial distinction, yes. But as for actual invitation to salvation;

~John 6:35-40
~ John 10:11
~ John 10:14-18
~ John 10:24-29
~ John 17:1-11
~ John 17:20
~ John 17:24-26
~ Ephesians 1:3-12
~ Romans 5:12
~ Romans 5:17-19
~ Matthew 1:21
~ Matthew 20:28
~ Matthew 26:28
~ John 10:11
~ John 11:50-53
~ Acts 20:28
~ Ephesians 5:25-27
~ Romans 8:32-34

I could go on, but you get the point. The Scriptures over and over again reference a SPECIFIC people of God; the problem is with a misinterpretation and taking out of context every verse with the words "all" and "whosoever"

Enoch111 said:
3. God intervenes by having preachers preach the Gospel so that saving faith is generated in the hearts and minds of sinners (all of Romans 10)

It is not OF PREACHERS that men are brought to Christ; it is of the Holy Spirit

1.) Not of Preachers

~ 1 Corinthians 3:4-7: For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Preachers can preach all day long, and without the Holy Spirit it means nothing.

2.) The Spirit Saves

~ Romans 8:14
~ 1 Corinthians 2:10-13
~ 2 Corinthians 3:17-18
~ John 1:12-13
~ John 5:21
~ Ephesians 2:1
~ Ephesians 2:5

3.) Only through the Spirit can men even receive "the message"

~ Matthew 11:25-27
~ Luke 10:21
~ Luke 8:10
~ Matthew 16:15-17
~ John 6:37
~ John 6:44-45
~ John 6:64-65
~ 1 Corinthians 2:14
~ Ephesians 1:17-18

4.) The Spirit gives faith and repentance

~ Acts of the Apostles 5:31
~ Acts of the Apostles 11:18
~ Acts of the Apostles 13:48
~ Acts of the Apostles 16:14
~ Acts of the Apostles 18:27
~ Ephesians 2:8-9
~ Philippians 1:29
~ 2 Timothy 2:25-26

Enoch111 said:
As I have pointed out several times, Calvinists simply dismiss the power of the Gospel, and falsely teach that sinners are regenerated BEFORE they are saved!

Not at all. How can one dismiss the power of the Gospel by giving it all to God? Are you saying that the power is better in the hands of men that in the hands of God? Are you saying that it degrades God's glory by not giving the power to men, but to Him? The Scriptures say otherwise.

OzSpen · Sep 6, 2019

Enoch111 said:
Do you really expect responsible responses from Calvinists? As far as I'm concerned Five Point Calvinism itself is totally irresponsible, since it turn the Gospel on its head.

It makes the Gospel proclamation unnecessary as God has already decreed the number to be saved. I used to preach in a Presbyterian church occasionally and I asked the pastor why, in this regional town, that his church didn't engage in any outreach evangelism. His immediate response was, 'God will bring them in'.

This is not the view of all Presbyterians as it was D James Kennedy, pastor of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Ch, Fort Lauderdale FL, who wrote the outreach program, 'Evangelism Explosion'.

Oz

Mjh29 · Sep 6, 2019

OzSpen said:
It's not my personally developed presupposition. There's no hint of a human being being made willing by God in what I've stated.

This is what the Bible teaches, but I don't expect your Calvinism to accept it:

John 12:32, 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself’ (NIV). It states 'all people' and NOT 'all kinds of people';

Titus 2:11, 'For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people' (NIV). God's grace extends to all people and not an 'elect' few.

1 John 2:2, 'He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world'. Jesus' propitiation was not for the elect but 'for the sins of the whole world'.

Matt 23:37, '‘Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing'. Free will to reject God's wooing is here taught.

Oz

Again, you are reading into it the assumption that all men must mean all men! You refuse to read the plain Scriptures I have presented, and instead are content pulling 2 or 3 verses out of context to build your theology upon.

1.) We know that Salvation cannot be Unlimited because the Scriptures speak of a specific people of God

~ Deuteronomy 10:14-15
~ Psalms 33:12
~ Psalms 65:4
~ Psalms 106:5
~ Matthew 11:27
~ Matthew 22:14
~ Matthew 24:22
~ Matthew 24:24
~ Matthew 24: 31
~ Luke 18:7
~ Romans 8:28-30
~ Romans 8:33
~ Romans 11:28
~ Colossians 3:12
~ Titus 1:1
~ 1 Peter 2:8-9

- This election preceded Salvation
~ Romans 11:7
~ 2 Timothy 2:10
~ Acts of the Apostles 13:48
~ 1 Thessalonians 1:4
~ 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
~ Ephesians 1:4

Jesus came to actually save sinners, not to make them savable. He did not merely throw out his blood for all to latch onto; He made his blood effective for those whom He chose by the power of His spirit.

~ Matthew 1:21
~ Luke 19:10
~ 2 Corinthians 5:21
~ Galatians 1:3-4
~ 1 Timothy 1:15
~ Titus 2:14
~ 1 Peter 3:18

Notice how none of these verses mentions Christ's blood being unlimited, but rather saying that it accomplishes its goals.

The result of Christ's blood is expressed to be reconciliation and justification.

~ Romans 5:10
~ 2 Corinthians 5:18-19
~ Ephesians 2:15-16
~ Colossians 1:21-22
~ Romans 3:24-25
~ Romans 5:8-9
~ 1 Corinthians 1:30
~ Hebrews 9:12
~ 1 Peter 2:24

How can everyone then be covered by Christ's blood? If the result of the application of His blood is reconciliation and justification, if this blood covers all then all are reconciled to Him, and therefore all are saved.

Another result of Christ's blood is the regeneration and sanctification.

~ Ephesians 1:3-4
~ Philippians 1:29
~ Acts 5:31
~ Titus 2:14
~ Titus 3:5-6
~ Ephesians 5:25-26
~ 1 Corinthians 1:30
~ Hebrews 9:14
~ Hebrews 13:12
~ 1 John 1:7

Again, if the result of the application of His blood is always regeneration and sanctification, how could He have died for all men? This would mean that all men are regenerated and sanctified, which we know is not true!

Christ Himself speaks of His people in finite terms; and He speaks of His work as effective for His people and them alone.

~ John 6:35-40
~ John 10:11-18
~ John 10:24-29

Jesus, in His high priestly prayer, does not pray for the entire world, but for those whom the Father has given to Him.

~ John 17:1-11
~ John 17:20
~ John 17: 24-26

How Jesus died for "All", and yet for a particular people.

Some passages speak of Christ dying for "all" men and of His death as saving the "world", yet others speak of His death as being definite in design and of His dying for a particular people and securing salvation for them.

1.) There are 2 classes of texts that speak of Christ's saving work in general terms:
a.) Those containing the word "world"
~ John 1:9
~ John 1:29
~ John 3:16-17
~ John 4:42
~ 2 Corinthians 5:19
~ 1 John 2:1-2
b.) Those containing the word "all"
~ Romans 5:18
~ 2 Corinthians 5:14-15
~ 1 Timothy 2:4-6
~ Hebrews 2:9
~ 2 Peter 3:9

Mjh29 · Sep 6, 2019

One of the reasons for the use of these expressions was to correct the false notion that salvation was for the Jews only. Such phrases as "the world", "all men", "all nations", and "every creature" were used by the New Testament writers to emphatically correct this mistake. These expressions are intended to show that Christ died for all men with out distinction, but they are not intended to indicate that Christ died for all men without exception.

There are many passages that speak of Christ's work in definite terms:
~ Matthew 1:21
~ Matthew 20:28
~ Matthew 26:28
~ John 10:11
~ John 11:50-53
~ Acts 20:28
~ Ephesians 5:25-27
~ Romans 8:32-34
~ Hebrews 2:17
~ Hebrews 3:1
~ Hebrews 9:15
~ Hebrews 9:28

We are left with 4 options regarding Christ's death:

1.) Christ died for all sins of all men.
2.) Some sins of some men
3.) Some sins of all men.
4.) All sins of some men

- If 1 is correct, then what about the sin of unbelief? He died for ALL sins, so this would include the sin of unbelief, therefore all men would be saved.

- If 2 or 3 is correct, then there are still some sins that are not covered, which means that no one is saved.

- If 4 is correct, then we see the exact same thing that the Scriptures teach: That Christ died for His people, and that not everyone is of His people.

Earburner · Sep 6, 2019

atpollard said:
As long as you are willing to consider that God "knocking" can sometimes look like Saul on the road to Damascus with ""we open the door" being closer to "Yes, Sir."

You are missing the point! God knows how, and to what level He must go, in His attempt to bring us to repentance towards Him. But for all His work in doing so, we still must open the door by our own free will. We see that free will of Paul being dominated into submission by Christ, when Paul said:
"Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?" Acts 9:6.

Saul, before his conversion, was a devoted, unbelieving Pharissee and a persecutor of the church.
Only after his conversion to Christ, and by him receiving the Holy Spirit, did Christ raise him up to be an effective tool in God's hands.

Paul understood that repentance, belief and forgiveness was not enough. One must be endowed with the Gift of God's own Holy Spirit. Acts 9:17-18; Romans 8:9.

We see his teaching in the following:
Acts 19[1] And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
[2] He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
[3] And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
[4] Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
[5] When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
[6] And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Now, for all intent and purposes, the disciples in Ephesus, were not approached by Christ as was Paul, but then again, they were not any less than Paul, for the work that God would call them to do through the Spirit.

marks · Sep 6, 2019

Mjh29 said:
- If 1 is correct, then what about the sin of unbelief? He died for ALL sins, so this would include the sin of unbelief, therefore all men would be saved.

Except, remember, You must be born again. Not just have your sins died for, and forgiven. Being forgiven makes you friends, not family. Only family remain forever.

Only in believing are we born again.

Much love!

marks · Sep 6, 2019

Mjh29 said:
He invites all KINDS of men without racial distinction, yes. But as for actual invitation to salvation;

~John 6:35-40
~ John 10:11
~ John 10:14-18
~ John 10:24-29
~ John 17:1-11
~ John 17:20
~ John 17:24-26
~ Ephesians 1:3-12
~ Romans 5:12
~ Romans 5:17-19
~ Matthew 1:21
~ Matthew 20:28
~ Matthew 26:28
~ John 10:11
~ John 11:50-53
~ Acts 20:28
~ Ephesians 5:25-27
~ Romans 8:32-34

I could go on, but you get the point. The Scriptures over and over again reference a SPECIFIC people of God; the problem is with a misinterpretation and taking out of context every verse with the words "all" and "whosoever"

Curious . . . which of these verses ACTUALLY exclude people from believing? Is there any one of them that say not all can be saved?

Considering that there are numerous verses which give a genenal invitation, Come to me, all ye . . ., where is the verse that actually limits it?

There are a couple that might seem to, and if you want to narrow your list to those few, we could discuss that if you wish.

Much love!

atpollard · Sep 6, 2019

GodsGrace said:
You never replied to my very long posts to you.
I don't really expect you to reply to it all..

But you always bring up free will, which everything hinges upon, I think.

What I'd like you to answer is when was free will taken away?
YOU THINK you've answered, but you haven't.

You said that A and E had free will when God created them.
God gave them preternatural gifts that were taken away.
Immortality
Infused Knowledge
Absence of Sin Nature

PRETERNATURAL GIFTS

Definition
Favors granted by God above and beyond the powers or capacities of the nature that receives them but not beyond those of all created nature. Such gifts perfect nature but do not carry it beyond the limits of created nature. They include three great privileges to which human beings have no title--infused knowledge, absence of concupiscence, and bodily immortality. Adam and Eve possessed these gifts before the Fall.

source: Dictionary : PRETERNATURAL GIFTS

You can look this up yourself....There are no other gifts given that were supernatural.

This preternatural gifts were LOST when Adam sinned and the human race fell as a result.

As you can see...FREE WILL was NOT a preternatural gift.
Free Will was NOT lost,,,it remained with Adam, Eve and their offspring.

OR
Did God cause Cain to kill Abel,,,
and THEN God became mad at Cain...
So God caused Cain to kill and then became mad at Cain for doing what God MADE HIM DO?

Let me try to be crystal clear.
We have the same “free will” that Adam had.

The question is what is our “will” really Free to do?
Our will is free to do anything that is in agreement with our nature.

So what is our nature?
Our nature is the same as the nature of Adam. We want to be like God. We do not want to follow God, or obey God, we want to be sovereign like God. We want to do what WE WANT.

So Adam easily had the physical ability to run to God when he had sinned and we have the physical ability to pray to God when we sin ... but Adam WOULD NOT run to God because that is not what Adam wanted. Adam wanted to hide. We do not run to God because that is not what sinners want, we want to hide just like Adam did. All mankind exercises their free will to run and hide. We never lost that free will, we have always had it. What mankind has NEVER had is the natural desire to run to God with our sins.

Adam and people today are both physically capable of confessing our sins, but both Adam and people today exercise their free will by refusing to acknowledge their sins. We make excuses and blame others.

Adam and people today are physically capable of repenting, but we are unwilling to repent and use are free will to resist repenting and continue on the path of OUR choosing.

That is why scripture describes us as slaves to sin and dead in our trespasses. That is why God must draw sinners to Christ and why God made us alive even when we were dead. Not because we could not (physically unable to) but because we would not (blind to the spiritual truth and exercising free will in stubborn rebellion).

When God removes the heart of stone (a dead heart) and gives us a new heart of flesh (a living heart), we do not cease to have free will, rather our WANTS have changed so that we are now capable of exercising our free will to do the things of God. We can want to run towards God instead of away. We can want to confess our sins rather than blame others. We can want to change our way of life and stop living like a sinner and start living like Christ. Our free will is free from the desires of sin to allow us to do things we did not want to do before.

So my answer is that “libertine free will” (the ability to do good or evil without any help from God) never existed. Adam shows no sign of having it (reread the opening posts). So we cannot loose what we never had.

The “free will” to do what we want - follow our natural desire to hide from God and blame others and refuse to change - we have always had and we have never lost.

The “free will” to be Christlike comes only from the gift of God and the Holy Spirit that changes our heart (wants).

Any questions?

atpollard · Sep 6, 2019

Taken said:
A person who CHOOSES to form a Relationship with GOD....has Chosen To do so.

Scripture calls that..the man having MADE AN ELECTION of God.
1 Thes 1
[4] Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

[1Th 1:4 NKJV] 4 knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God.
[1Th 1:4 NLT] 4 We know, dear brothers and sisters, that God loves you and has chosen you to be his own people.
[1Th 1:4 NIV] 4 For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you,
[1Th 1:4 ESV] 4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,
[1Th 1:4 NASB] 4 knowing, brethren beloved by God, [His] choice of you;
[1Th 1:4 RSV] 4 For we know, brethren beloved by God, that he has chosen you;
[1Th 1:4 ASV] 4 knowing, brethren beloved of God, your election,

... you have the actors roles reversed.

atpollard · Sep 6, 2019

Mjh29 said:
Again, you are reading into it the assumption that all men must mean all men! You refuse to read the plain Scriptures I have presented, and instead are content pulling 2 or 3 verses out of context to build your theology upon.

Until you attempt to press them on their verses to see if they really believe it, then it gets all “mystery” and changing the subject.

John 12:32
Will Jesus draw all men without exception? ... they say “yes”
Was Jesus lifted up? ... yes.
When? ... first century.
How were the people living in the Western Hemisphere in the first century drawn to Christ? ... John 3:16, let’s talk about ‘whosoever’

Total Inability: Genesis 1-4

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