Total Inability: Genesis 1-4

atpollard · Sep 6, 2019

marks said:
where is the verse that actually limits it?

[2Co 4:3-4 NASB] 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

[Jhn 10:26, 29 NASB] 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. ... 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand.

[Jhn 6:43-44 NASB] 43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

atpollard · Sep 6, 2019

Earburner said:
You are missing the point! God knows how, and to what level He must go, in His attempt to bring us to repentance towards Him. But for all His work in doing so, we still must open the door by our own free will. We see that free will of Paul being dominated into submission by Christ, when Paul said:
"Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?" Acts 9:6.

Could you please show me the “free will” that God calls (like Saul) but they say “no”.
If they cannot say “no”, then explain how the will is free.

Moses? (went to Egypt)
Jonah? (went to Nineveh)
Noah? (built the Ark)
Abram? (left Mesopotamia)

I keep attempting to think of the man that said no to God.

Earburner · Sep 6, 2019

Mjh29 said:
One of the reasons for the use of these expressions was to correct the false notion that salvation was for the Jews only. Such phrases as "the world", "all men", "all nations", and "every creature" were used by the New Testament writers to emphatically correct this mistake. These expressions are intended to show that Christ died for all men with out distinction, but they are not intended to indicate that Christ died for all men without exception.

There are many passages that speak of Christ's work in definite terms:
~ Matthew 1:21
~ Matthew 20:28
~ Matthew 26:28
~ John 10:11
~ John 11:50-53
~ Acts 20:28
~ Ephesians 5:25-27
~ Romans 8:32-34
~ Hebrews 2:17
~ Hebrews 3:1
~ Hebrews 9:15
~ Hebrews 9:28

We are left with 4 options regarding Christ's death:

1.) Christ died for all sins of all men.
2.) Some sins of some men
3.) Some sins of all men.
4.) All sins of some men

- If 1 is correct, then what about the sin of unbelief? He died for ALL sins, so this would include the sin of unbelief, therefore all men would be saved.

- If 2 or 3 is correct, then there are still some sins that are not covered, which means that no one is saved.

- If 4 is correct, then we see the exact same thing that the Scriptures teach: That Christ died for His people, and that not everyone is of His people.

You have a dilemma in your conclusion #1.
The "sin of unbelief" is the blashemy against the Holy Spirit, which is the only sin that is unforgiveable.

atpollard · Sep 6, 2019

Earburner said:
You have a dilemma in your conclusion #1.
The "sin of unbelief" is the blashemy against the Holy Spirit, which is the only sin that is unforgiveable.

That is not what Jesus warned the Pharisees about when he used that phrase (unpardonable sin).

Earburner · Sep 6, 2019

atpollard said:
That is not what Jesus warned the Pharisees about when he used that phrase (unpardonable sin).

Wrong answer. So now, you are going to squirm on this also! Don't you know that unbelief is the only sin that condemns people to eternal destruction?
That is what Jesus was saying in John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Taken · Sep 7, 2019

atpollard said:
[1Th 1:4 NKJV] 4 knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God.
[1Th 1:4 NLT] 4 We know, dear brothers and sisters, that God loves you and has chosen you to be his own people.
[1Th 1:4 NIV] 4 For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you,
[1Th 1:4 ESV] 4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,
[1Th 1:4 NASB] 4 knowing, brethren beloved by God, [His] choice of you;
[1Th 1:4 RSV] 4 For we know, brethren beloved by God, that he has chosen you;
[1Th 1:4 ASV] 4 knowing, brethren beloved of God, your election,

... you have the actors roles reversed.

No.
I have the understanding...when two parties are beginning to FORM a Relationship...
The TWO parties "each have a role in CHOOSING the Other."

The Lord can all day long CHOOSE a man...
And IF that man Does NOT also CHOOSE the Lord....there is No Relationship bond formed.

Glory to God,
Taken

Mjh29 · Sep 7, 2019

Earburner said:
You have a dilemma in your conclusion #1.
The "sin of unbelief" is the blashemy against the Holy Spirit, which is the only sin that is unforgiveable.

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not the same as general unbelief. Are you saying that everyone who does not believe is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit?

Mjh29 · Sep 7, 2019

marks said:
Except, remember, You must be born again. Not just have your sins died for, and forgiven. Being forgiven makes you friends, not family. Only family remain forever.

Only in believing are we born again.

Much love!

So people in Hell are paying double jeopardy? Christ died for all sins on the Cross, and God accepted His offering as the remedy for sin, so that all men who are under His blood are forgiven completely. So, when a person goes to Hell and is punished, they are paying for sins that Christ already paid for, and God is punishing them even though He promised Christ's work was sufficient? This makes God out to be worse that a liar!

Mjh29 · Sep 7, 2019

marks said:
Curious . . . which of these verses ACTUALLY exclude people from believing? Is there any one of them that say not all can be saved?

Considering that there are numerous verses which give a genenal invitation, Come to me, all ye . . ., where is the verse that actually limits it?

There are a couple that might seem to, and if you want to narrow your list to those few, we could discuss that if you wish.

Much love!

These verses clearly state that Christ's intentions were not to save every single person, but a chosen group of sinners. The Sheep. The ones the Father has given. Giving his life a ransom for MANY. These verses clearly show that Christ gave His life for MANY, but not ALL. All KINDS of men, yes, without racial distinction and without any distinction based on power, money, ect. But not all men ever.

Earburner · Sep 7, 2019

atpollard said:
Could you please show me the “free will” that God calls (like Saul) but they say “no”.
If they cannot say “no”, then explain how the will is free.

Moses? (went to Egypt)
Jonah? (went to Nineveh)
Noah? (built the Ark)
Abram? (left Mesopotamia)

I keep attempting to think of the man that said no to God.

John 10[34] Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

In our bodies, which are ruled by our own minds, we all were made to be the potential temples for the Living God to dwell in.

When God's Eternal Son Jesus was made to be flesh, the very Spirit of God the Father ruled His mind of flesh. For us, in our birth, that is not so.
John 8[23] And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Therefore, that true "spirit of antichrist", is our very own fleshly minds, aka " the natural man". 1Corinthians 2:14.
.
We sit in the temple of God (our bodies) as God, showing ourselves that we are God.
2 Thes. 2[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come (the Lord's return), except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
> And you (and all) thought that this is talking about some religious psycho to come, with miraculous powers of deception. Ha!! Lol. There is no greater deception than self deception!

Earburner · Sep 7, 2019

^ Hence the need to be born again of/by His Holy Spirit.

GodsGrace · Sep 7, 2019

atpollard said:
Could you please show me the “free will” that God calls (like Saul) but they say “no”.
If they cannot say “no”, then explain how the will is free.

Moses? (went to Egypt)
Jonah? (went to Nineveh)
Noah? (built the Ark)
Abram? (left Mesopotamia)

I keep attempting to think of the man that said no to God.

All those atheists that you say have no free will...
by their own free will have said NO to God.

And, of course, you won't answer my post to you about the preternatural gifts God gave to Adam and Eve.

Free Will is NOT among them because FREE WILL is a normal gift and not a supernatural gift.

FREE WILL was not lost after the fall...
Unless you wish to show me some verses that state we do not have free will.

GodsGrace · Sep 7, 2019

Mjh29 said:
These verses clearly state that Christ's intentions were not to save every single person, but a chosen group of sinners. The Sheep. The ones the Father has given. Giving his life a ransom for MANY. These verses clearly show that Christ gave His life for MANY, but not ALL. All KINDS of men, yes, without racial distinction and without any distinction based on power, money, ect. But not all men ever.

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:2

His sacrifice was SUFFICIENT for ALL the sins of every man that ever lived or will live in the future.

But to make Jesus' sacrifice efficacious...we must ACCEPT that gift of love.

God so loved the world that He made plans BEFORE Adam and Eve because He knew they would sin....so God planned our redemption...for WHOSOEVER wants it.

John 3:16 is an exhortation...not a declaration.

John 3:36
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Notice that the above does not say that whoever God allows to believe in the Son will have eternal life....and he who God DOES NOT ALLOW to obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

You believe EVERYONE EXCEPT those God chooses are in God's wrath.
Jesus states that those who DO NOT OBEY THE SON will be in God's wrath.

Sounds to me that if we OBEY GOD, we will NOT be in His wrath.

Interesting how you twist words around...

Perhaps you could find the verse that says that Jesus died ONLY FOR A SELECT FEW...those that GOD CHOSE.

Thanks.

Mjh29 · Sep 7, 2019

GodsGrace said:
Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:2

His sacrifice was SUFFICIENT for ALL the sins of every man that ever lived or will live in the future.

But to make Jesus' sacrifice efficacious...we must ACCEPT that gift of love.

God so loved the world that He made plans BEFORE Adam and Eve because He knew they would sin....so God planned our redemption...for WHOSOEVER wants it.

John 3:16 is an exhortation...not a declaration.

John 3:36
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Notice that the above does not say that whoever God allows to believe in the Son will have eternal life....and he who God DOES NOT ALLOW to obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

You believe EVERYONE EXCEPT those God chooses are in God's wrath.
Jesus states that those who DO NOT OBEY THE SON will be in God's wrath.

Sounds to me that if we OBEY GOD, we will NOT be in His wrath.

Interesting how you twist words around...

Perhaps you could find the verse that says that Jesus died ONLY FOR A SELECT FEW...those that GOD CHOSE.

Thanks.

Is not accepting Jesus a sin?

marks · Sep 7, 2019

Mjh29 said:
All KINDS

If were looking the "all kinds of men", I'll leave that alone.

I disagree, I don't see it written that way.

Jesus only had such followers as God gave to Him, but upon His deaht He said He would draw all men to himself.

Upon Jesus' death, the gospel was open to all.

Much love!

marks · Sep 7, 2019

Mjh29 said:
So people in Hell are paying double jeopardy? Christ died for all sins on the Cross, and God accepted His offering as the remedy for sin, so that all men who are under His blood are forgiven completely. So, when a person goes to Hell and is punished, they are paying for sins that Christ already paid for, and God is punishing them even though He promised Christ's work was sufficient? This makes God out to be worse that a liar!

Again, people are condemned because they are not alive according to what God says being alive is.

You much be born again. If they aren't, then there remains only one alternate destination.

Not double jeopardy.

Much love!

Mjh29 · Sep 7, 2019

marks said:
Again, people are condemned because they are not alive according to what God says being alive is.

You much be born again. If they aren't, then there remains only one alternate destination.

Not double jeopardy.

Much love!

But you said you believe that Christ died for all sins of all men? Does this not include those who will never believe and will go to Hell? How then can they be punished for the same sins for which Christ already paid for?

Earburner · Sep 7, 2019

Mjh29 said:
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not the same as general unbelief. Are you saying that everyone who does not believe is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit?

1. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgiveable. Therefore, the results will be eternal condemnation. John 3:18

2. The sin of unbelief is unforgiveable. Therefore, the results will be eternal condemnation. Mark 3:29

Yet, according to Jesus, there is only ONE sin that is unforgiveable.

If both are not the same sin, then which one is forgiveable?

marks · Sep 7, 2019

Mjh29 said:
But you said you believe that Christ died for all sins of all men? Does this not include those who will never believe and will go to Hell? How then can they be punished for the same sins for which Christ already paid for?

We keep doing the same question here.

Jesus died to forgive my stealing change from my mother's purse, therefore, stealing change from my mother' purse will not exclude me from the kingdom, and will not be given as the reason for throwing me into the lake of fire, God forbid!

But If I'm not born again, that is what leaves me with no other place to go.

Any who are not found in the book of life are tossed in. Not, any who stole change.

There is being forgiven and there is being born again. Lack of either exclude you. Jesus bore the penalty for your sin so you can be born again and escape the lake of fire.

Much love!

Mjh29 · Sep 7, 2019

Earburner said:
1. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgiveable. Therefore, the results will be eternal condemnation. John 3:18

2. The sin of unbelief is unforgiveable. Therefore, the results will be eternal condemnation. Mark 3:29

Yet, according to Jesus, there is only ONE sin that is unforgiveable.

If both are not the same sin, then which one is forgiveable?

Unbelief can and is changed in the elect by the Holy Spirit; those who were chosen are guaranteed to believe. Those who were not are guaranteed to remain in their unbelief. Unbelief is not the unpardonable sin, but rather is only pardonable through the Holy Spirit. Once changed by the Holy Spirit and brought to God, the elect are indeed cleansed from their sin of unbelief, which they will practice no more.

Total Inability: Genesis 1-4

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