Understanding Romans 6 is critically important

Davy said:

Again, you show ignorance in God's Holy Writ. Lucifer is NOT The Morning Star, ONLY Jesus is.

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No kidding. That's why I don't accept Bible translations that say that he is.

Davy said:

Only a devil would believe that Lucifer is The Morning Star.

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Right. That's why I reject the NASB, the NIV, and any other version that tries to tell us that satan is the morning star.

Davy said:

Your simple mindedness can't even understand why God said that Isaiah 14:12 verse in mocking Satan.

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The God I serve is not a mocker.

Maybe some of His servants (i.e. Elijah to the servants of Baal); but not Him.

Davy said:

You are a LIAR AND A HYPOCRITE AND ARE NOT TO BE TRUSTED.

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Thank you for telling me that. Of course I will take it to heart; for it is written,

Pro 28:26, He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.

Therefore I accept your statement as it pertains to me (trusting in my own heart).

However, if you are trying to also tell others that I am not to be trusted, you are attempting to hinder my ministry by deterring people from following my teaching; which I would identify as persecution for righteousness' sake. So then, I am blessed; for mine is the kingdom of heaven according to the word of the Lord. However, those who would be deterred from being blessed, and perhaps even saved, through my teaching, I would attribute that to you: so be certain that these are the results that you want. And they will also possibly even fail to enter the kingdom because of you.

justbyfaith said:

The only result would have been that his temporal life wouldn't have been saved. If he had perished in the flood, he would have gone straight to heaven, being a recipient of grace even before he built the ark.

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Noah would have been spiritually lost as the rest of the wicked of that time for disobeying God. It would been hypocritical and showing respect of person on God's part to allow Noah int heaven with his sins but not allow all others into heaven with their sins.

justbyfaith said:

The righteousness which is by the law does not save (Philippians 3:1-9). The only righteousness which saves is the righteousness which is of God by faith (Philippians 3:9). This is what it means that they did not submit to the righteousness of God, attempting to establish their own righteousness. They did not seek it by faith; but as it were through the works of the law (see context in Romans 9:30-33).

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I have argued the OT law of Moses cannot justify and I see nothing in Phil 1:1-9 that says one can be saved by keeping the law of Moses.

Phil 3:9 shows one's own righteousness cannot save as Romans 10:3 shows those Jews were lost for doing their OWN righteousness instead of doing God's righteousness. One therefore must do God's righteousness to be saved....".. the righteousness which is from God by faith "..one by faith must be obedient to God's righteousness/commands. Therefore a saving faith is not just mere mental acknowledgement of certain facts but is obedience in believing (John 8:24) confession (Matthew 10:32-33) and baptism (Acts 2:38)

Ernest T. Bass said:

Noah would have been spiritually lost as the rest of the wicked of that time for disobeying God. It would been hypocritical and showing respect of person on God's part to allow Noah int heaven with his sins but not allow all others into heaven with their sins.

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Nope. Noah was saved by grace before he even built the ark. And technically, if he had done the ungodly thing and been disobedient, failing to build the ark, he would have still been justified by grace.

Rom 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6, Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8, Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Tit 3:4, But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6, Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7, That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Ernest T. Bass said:

I have argued the OT law of Moses cannot justify and I see nothing in Phil 1:1-9 that says one can be saved by keeping the law of Moses.

Phil 3:9 shows one's own righteousness cannot save as Romans 10:3 shows those Jews were lost for doing their OWN righteousness instead of doing God's righteousness. One therefore must do God's righteousness to be saved....".. the righteousness which is from God by faith "..one by faith must be obedient to God's righteousness/commands. Therefore a saving faith is not just mere mental acknowledgement of certain facts but is obedience in believing (John 8:24) confession (Matthew 10:32-33) and baptism (Acts 2:38)

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While a living and saving faith is normally an obedient faith, it should be clear that we are not saved by the obedience that is produced by our faith, but by the faith itself. Therefore we do not save ourselves through obeying certain commandments, but obeying the commandments is the result of already being saved.

Jesus said, Ye must be born again. And this can only be accomplished in a person's life through the word of the Lord entering in and producing faith in the Person and blood of Jesus Christ.

Rom 10:17, So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

1Pe 1:23, Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Rom 5:9, Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 3:25, Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Jhn 6:47, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

justbyfaith said:

Thank you for telling me that. Of course I will take it to heart; for it is written,

Pro 28:26, He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.

Therefore I accept your statement as it pertains to me (trusting in my own heart).

However, if you are trying to also tell others that I am not to be trusted, you are attempting to hinder my ministry by deterring people from following my teaching; which I would identify as persecution for righteousness' sake. So then, I am blessed; for mine is the kingdom of heaven according to the word of the Lord. However, those who would be deterred from being blessed, and perhaps even saved, through my teaching, I would attribute that to you: so be certain that these are the results that you want. And they will also possibly even fail to enter the kingdom because of you.

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JBF, don't let Davy rile you up, he worships the dead god of ruddiness and ignorance and has learned a lot from him. But since he has committed the unpardonable sin, he has a ride ahead of him.

Grailhunter said:

JBF, don't let Davy rile you up, he worships the dead god of ruddiness and ignorance and has learned a lot from him. But since he has committed the unpardonable sin, he has a ride ahead of him.

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I did not know that...

justbyfaith said:

I did not know that...

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No you don't. It comes from his condemnation of the Holy Spirit....speaking in tongues stuff. Words means things.

I have always believed that those who say that tongues are of the devil are in grave spiritual danger.

justbyfaith said:

I have always believed that those who say that tongues are of the devil are in grave spiritual danger.

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Don't get me wrong, I get it that some people may not believe in it, I get it that some people may not understand it, I even get it some would find it weird. But considering the biblical connection to the Holy Spirit and the wording of Christ's warning I would refrain from condemning the speaking in tongues or any other belief of the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Hope all is good with you.

Grailhunter said:

Hope all is good with you.

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Thank you, likewise.

Zachary said:

Unless the Holy Spirit is giving you revelation knowledge
as you read your Bible, you're dead meat.

And He reveals more to those who are ready for it, can handle it, etc.

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He does indeed reveal to me what He means in the holy scriptures when I read them in English; and even if He didn't, I believe that the scriptures as they are given unto us in English are sufficient as the whole counsel of the Lord, giving me everything I need that pertains to life and godliness (see 2 Peter 1:3-4).

You do not need to learn an entirely different language to be able to understand the Lord's message to you. And to believe that you do is to believe a lie from the pit of hell. We should spend our time primarily studying the Bible; and while it may help to a limited degree to understand the words that were originally used, it is very much like what the Lord said of bodily exercise as opposed to godliness:

1Ti 4:8, For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

Understanding Greek and Hebrew profiteth little; but understanding the plain message of the Bible profiteth unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

A person can spend their time more wisely seeking to understand what the Bible is saying to them in English, rather than trying to figure out what it is saying to them in another language. All the time spent learning the meanings of Greek and Hebrew words can be spent meditating on the scriptures as they are laid before us.

All you need is a trust in the sovereignty, love, and omnipotence of the Father in giving us the translation that we have set before us (especially the kjv).

But of course, if you have issues with the kjv, you may have the desire to try to make it mean something else, by inserting an alternate word meaning than what the translators chose for the words given in the kjv.

However, the scriptures says:

1Ti 6:4, He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

and,

2Ti 2:14, Of these things put them in remembrance, charging thembefore the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

Also, I believe that in going to other translations, certain people heap up for themselves teachers in the translators of those Bible versions, to tell them what their itching ears want to hear:

2Ti 4:1, I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Ti 4:2, Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3, For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4, And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

justbyfaith said:

Nope. Noah was saved by grace before he even built the ark. And technically, if he had done the ungodly thing and been disobedient, failing to build the ark, he would have still been justified by grace.

Rom 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6, Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8, Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Tit 3:4, But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6, Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7, That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.



While a living and saving faith is normally an obedient faith, it should be clear that we are not saved by the obedience that is produced by our faith, but by the faith itself. Therefore we do not save ourselves through obeying certain commandments, but obeying the commandments is the result of already being saved.

Jesus said, Ye must be born again. And this can only be accomplished in a person's life through the word of the Lord entering in and producing faith in the Person and blood of Jesus Christ.

Rom 10:17, So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

1Pe 1:23, Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Rom 5:9, Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 3:25, Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Jhn 6:47, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

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The reason Noah had found grace in the eyes of the Lord was because he was had an obedient faith towards God, Genesis 6:9; Genesis 7:1; Genesis 7:5, Noah's life of righteousness and obedience is contrasted from that unrighteous, evil, wicked generation. Noah did not find grace in the eyes of the Lord by capricious chance or for some unknown reason, but instead God says to Noah." I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation.". Noah and his family were the ones of that generation God saw as righteous and you will argue that Noah's righteousness had nothing to do with Noah finding grace in the eyes of the Lord??? God does not UNconditionally save anyone regardless to how they live their life....if salvation is UNconditional then why did God not UNconditionally save ALL that generation instead of just 8 souls?

--Hebrews 11:7 Noah had an obedient faith.
--Genesis 7:1 Noah was righteous and the righteous shall live by faith per Habakkuk 2:4.
--Ezekiel 14:14 "and these three men have been in its midst, Noah, Daniel, and Job -- they by their righteousness deliver their own soul -- an affirmation of the Lord Jehovah." Hence Noah and his house was saved "by their own righteousness". The rest of the wicked generation spiritually died in God's judgment (the flood) for they had no righteousness. Again, Hebrews 11:7 says Noah moved with FEAR in preparing the ark for he knew if he disobeyed God he would face the same wrath and judgment of God as the rest of that wicked generation did.

There is not a single verse that says those who live in rebellion to God find grace in the eyes of God and had Noah acted in rebellion and did unrighteousness by not obeying God he would have been spiritually lost with the rest of that wicked generation.

If God would saves one person who rebels against Him and does unrighteousness then God would save ALL who rebel against Him and does unrighteousness.

You have yet to produce one verse that says faith alone, that is, faith void of obedience saves. There is no such thing int he Bible as a 'disobedient faith' that saved but the Bible speak sof an 'obedient faith' that saves.

Ernest T. Bass said:

Noah and his family were the ones of that generation God saw as righteous and you will argue that Noah's righteousness had nothing to do with Noah finding grace in the eyes of the Lord???

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No; but I will argue that Noah's righteousness was the righteousness of faith and had nothing to do with his works; except that works resulted out of his righteousness of faith.

Ernest T. Bass said:

Hence Noah and his house was saved "by their own righteousness".

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This is simply wrong. See Philippians 3:9.

Phl 3:9, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

The only righteousness that saves is the righteousness which is of God by faith. Our own righteousness never has the power to save us; for it is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6).

Isa 64:6, But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Ernest T. Bass said:

There is not a single verse that says those who live in rebellion to God find grace in the eyes of God and had Noah acted in rebellion and did unrighteousness by not obeying God he would have been spiritually lost with the rest of that wicked generation.

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Nevertheless, Noah was not saved by His obedience but because of the fact that he had received an obedient faith from the Lord.

Ernest T. Bass said:

If God would saves one person who rebels against Him and does unrighteousness then God would save ALL who rebel against Him and does unrighteousness.

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God does indeed justify the ungodly; and the catalyst is faith alone in Jesus Christ. Romans 4:5.

Ernest T. Bass said:

You have yet to produce one verse that says faith alone, that is, faith void of obedience saves.

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I will reference two here: Romans 4:5-6. These verses tell us that faith apart from works has the power to save. I will contend here that obedience translates into works; and therefore if we are saved through obedience, we are saved through works. Yet the scripture also says,

Eph 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9, Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Tit 3:4, But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6, Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7, That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Rom 11:5, Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6, And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.