Total Inability: Genesis 1-4

marks said:

We keep doing the same question here.

Jesus died to forgive my stealing change from my mother's purse, therefore, stealing change from my mother' purse will not exclude me from the kingdom, and will not be given as the reason for throwing me into the lake of fire, God forbid!

But If I'm not born again, that is what leaves me with no other place to go.

Any who are not found in the book of life are tossed in. Not, any who stole change.

There is being forgiven and there is being born again. Lack of either exclude you. Jesus bore the penalty for your sin so you can be born again and escape the lake of fire.

Much love!

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Mjh29 said:

Unbelief can and is changed in the elect by the Holy Spirit; those who were chosen are guaranteed to believe. Those who were not are guaranteed to remain in their unbelief. Unbelief is not the unpardonable sin, but rather is only pardonable through the Holy Spirit. Once changed by the Holy Spirit and brought to God, the elect are indeed cleansed from their sin of unbelief, which they will practice no more.

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Earburner said:

That is so for every person who "opens the door" by their free will. Rev. 3:20
But we are not talking about converted people. We are talking about people who choose unbelief.
As long as they remain in unbelief, they remain to be condemned already.
Mark 3:29 says that such people are "in danger of eternal damnation". Therefore, to be (or die) in that condition, they don't have forgiveness now, nor in the world to come.
They never have forgiveness!

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atpollard said:

Let me try to be crystal clear.
We have the same “free will” that Adam had.

The question is what is our “will” really Free to do?
Our will is free to do anything that is in agreement with our nature.

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So what is our nature?
Our nature is the same as the nature of Adam. We want to be like God. We do not want to follow God, or obey God, we want to be sovereign like God. We want to do what WE WANT.

So Adam easily had the physical ability to run to God when he had sinned and we have the physical ability to pray to God when we sin ... but Adam WOULD NOT run to God because that is not what Adam wanted. Adam wanted to hide. We do not run to God because that is not what sinners want, we want to hide just like Adam did. All mankind exercises their free will to run and hide. We never lost that free will, we have always had it. What mankind has NEVER had is the natural desire to run to God with our sins.

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Adam and people today are both physically capable of confessing our sins, but both Adam and people today exercise their free will by refusing to acknowledge their sins. We make excuses and blame others.

Adam and people today are physically capable of repenting, but we are unwilling to repent and use are free will to resist repenting and continue on the path of OUR choosing.

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That is why scripture describes us as slaves to sin and dead in our trespasses. That is why God must draw sinners to Christ and why God made us alive even when we were dead. Not because we could not (physically unable to) but because we would not (blind to the spiritual truth and exercising free will in stubborn rebellion).

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When God removes the heart of stone (a dead heart) and gives us a new heart of flesh (a living heart), we do not cease to have free will, rather our WANTS have changed so that we are now capable of exercising our free will to do the things of God. We can want to run towards God instead of away. We can want to confess our sins rather than blame others. We can want to change our way of life and stop living like a sinner and start living like Christ. Our free will is free from the desires of sin to allow us to do things we did not want to do before.

So my answer is that “libertine free will” (the ability to do good or evil without any help from God) never existed. Adam shows no sign of having it (reread the opening posts). So we cannot loose what we never had.

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The “free will” to do what we want - follow our natural desire to hide from God and blame others and refuse to change - we have always had and we have never lost.

The “free will” to be Christlike comes only from the gift of God and the Holy Spirit that changes our heart (wants).

Any questions?

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Mjh29 said:

Is not accepting Jesus a sin?

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Mjh29 said:

There is no such thing as free will; as my friend @atpollard has so beautifully shown. There is no point in rehashing; he's done a marvelous job already.

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GodsGrace said:

It must be a lot of fun being a little robot for God.
I wonder if He appreciates YOUR love...which HE forces on you...

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GodsGrace said:

As much as MY LOVE...which is freely given.
Yes. freely --- as in LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL.

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GodsGrace said:

And could you please post a verse that states that Jesus died for only a select few?
I'd rather see the verse rather than hear your incorrect opinion.

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Mjh29 said:

Not being hypocritical. You have yet to actually answer any of my questions, simply answering them with more questions and jabs rather than actually addressing the questions. Let's take a look at what the Scriptures teach, and step away from personal presuppositions and college degrees.

1.) We know that Salvation cannot be Unlimited because the Scriptures speak of a specific people of God

~ Deuteronomy 10:14-15
~ Psalms 33:12
~ Psalms 65:4
~ Psalms 106:5
~ Matthew 11:27
~ Matthew 22:14
~ Matthew 24:22
~ Matthew 24:24
~ Matthew 24: 31
~ Luke 18:7
~ Romans 8:28-30
~ Romans 8:33
~ Romans 11:28
~ Colossians 3:12
~ Titus 1:1
~ 1 Peter 2:8-9

- This election preceded Salvation
~ Romans 11:7
~ 2 Timothy 2:10
~ Acts 13:48
~ 1 Thessalonians 1:4
~ 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
~ Ephesians 1:4

Jesus came to actually save sinners, not to make them savable. He did not merely throw out his blood for all to latch onto; He made his blood effective for those whom He chose by the power of His spirit.

~ Matthew 1:21
~ Luke 19:10
~ 2 Corinthians 5:21
~ Galatians 1:3-4
~ 1 Timothy 1:15
~ Titus 2:14
~ 1 Peter 3:18

Notice how none of these verses mentions Christ's blood being unlimited, but rather saying that it accomplishes its goals. It does not give the choice to man, but rather gives all the power to Christ, who claims that He saves sinners.

The result of Christ's blood is expressed to be reconciliation and justification.

~ Romans 5:10
~ 2 Corinthians 5:18-19
~ Ephesians 2:15-16
~ Colossians 1:21-22
~ Romans 3:24-25
~ Romans 5:8-9
~ 1 Corinthians 1:30
~ Hebrews 9:12
~ 1 Peter 2:24

How can everyone then be covered by Christ's blood? If the result of the application of His blood is reconciliation and justification, if this blood covers all then all are reconciled to Him, and therefore all are saved.

Another result of Christ's blood is the regeneration and sanctification.

~ Ephesians 1:3-4
~ Philippians 1:29
~ Acts 5:31
~ Titus 2:14
~ Titus 3:5-6
~ Ephesians 5:25-26
~ 1 Corinthians 1:30
~ Hebrews 9:14
~ Hebrews 13:12
~ 1 John 1:7

Again, if the result of the application of His blood is always regeneration and sanctification, how could He have died for all men? This would mean that all men are regenerated and sanctified, which we know is not true!

Christ Himself speaks of His people in finite terms; and He speaks of His work as effective for His people and them alone.

~ John 6:35-40
~ John 10:11-18
~ John 10:24-29

Jesus, in His high priestly prayer, does not pray for the entire world, but for those whom the Father has given to Him.

~ John 17:1-11
~ John 17:20
~ John 17: 24-26


How Jesus died for "All", and yet for a particular people.

Some passages speak of Christ dying for "all" men and of His death as saving the "world", yet others speak of His death as being definite in design and of His dying for a particular people and securing salvation for them.

1.) There are 2 classes of texts that speak of Christ's saving work in general terms:
a.) Those containing the word "world"
~ John 1:9
~ John 1:29
~ John 3:16-17
~ John 4:42
~ 2 Corinthians 5:19
~ 1 John 2:1-2
b.) Those containing the word "all"
~ Romans 5:18
~ 2 Corinthians 5:14-15
~ 1 Timothy 2:4-6
~ Hebrews 2:9
~ 2 Peter 3:9

One of the reasons for the use of these expressions was to correct the false notion that salvation was for the Jews only. Such phrases as "the world", "all men", "all nations", and "every creature" were used by the New Testament writers to emphatically correct this mistake. These expressions are intended to show that Christ died for all men with out distinction, but they are not intended to indicate that Christ died for all men without exception.

There are many passages that speak of Christ's work in definite terms:
~ Matthew 1:21
~ Matthew 20:28
~ Matthew 26:28
~ John 10:11
~ John 11:50-53
~ Acts 20:28
~ Ephesians 5:25-27
~ Romans 8:32-34
~ Hebrews 2:17
~ Hebrews 3:1
~ Hebrews 9:15
~ Hebrews 9:28


We are left with 4 options regarding Christ's death:

1.) Christ died for all sins of all men.
2.) Some sins of some men
3.) Some sins of all men.
4.) All sins of some men

- If 1 is correct, then what about the sin of unbelief? He died for ALL sins, so this would include the sin of unbelief, therefore all men would be saved.

- If 2 or 3 is correct, then there are still some sins that are not covered, which means that no one is saved.

- If 4 is correct, then we see the exact same thing that the Scriptures teach: That Christ died for His people, and that not everyone is of His people.


The word hypocrite is a very strong word, so while were throwing them around, how about heretic? Because believing that man's salvation is in his own hands is a heresy that goes back to a serpent in the garden of Eden.

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Mjh29 said:

This doesn't answer the question or solve the problem of God punishing people for sins you claim Christ died for! A thief steals a woman's purse, and yet never repents and never "chooses Jesus." You claim Christ died for the sins of all men everywhere, which means this and every other sin the thief has ever committed was covered by Christ. So, when he goes to the "only other place to go", God is still unjustly making him pay for a debt that you claim Christ already solved. His personal belief has nothing to do with the fact that you claim Christ died for all men's sins, and that God doubly punishes.

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atpollard said:

I have grown weary of answering your posts only to have you respond with accusations that I will not answer your posts.

I requested the actual name of someone in scripture that illustrates your point of view ... the name of the man that God “called” and ultimately exercised his free will to refuse the calling of God. I gave you examples of people that either might have been reluctant to obey God or actually attempted to refuse God ... but all of them obeyed in the end. So where is the scripture for the person that God called and ultimately rejected the will of God!

There is no evidence that Atheists that reject God are called. Reread Romans 1 and see that God does the opposite of calling some people ... God gives them over to a depraved mind.

You posted your opinions about preternatural gifts without even a shred of evidence that they even exist. How do you expect me to respond to unsupported opinions? What does that have to do with when, where and how people lost free will (the topic you last accused me of not answering)? In this case you are correct, I have no intention of discussing preternatural gifts.

I am confused how you can demand that I show you some verses that say we lost free will after I just explained in depth how we have the same free will that Adam had when he ate the forbidden fruit. Are you actually reading my posts?

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Mjh29 said:

Of course. I do enjoy knowing that all things are under His command. And He doesn't force His love upon me or force me to love Him; He rescues me from my state of sin and death and brings me into life everlasting.



Like the one that Adam had in the garden of Eden, which he used to defy God and commit sin?

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GodsGrace said:

Oh yes.
Carpet bombing works really well.

You must have a problem dealing with one truth at a time...
Much better to list tens of verses you don't even understand so that the other member cannot even BEGIN to reply to you.

Great method indeed, for those who do not know scripture.

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Mjh29 said:

If you aren't concerned with the Word of God enough to read it, and instead would rather dilute yourself with tradition and lies, by all means go ahead. I can stand for a lot of things, but disrespect for the Word is not one of them.

Ridicule. Great method indeed for those who have nothing but tradition and personal opinion, coupled with a couple of out of context verses to back them up.

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GodsGrace said:

@Mjh29

What do you make of
John 5:28-29 ?

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marks said:

God is into truth.

So what kind of truth is it so say, I have a family who loves me, if in fact it has nothing to do with the family, it has everything to do with the fact that I made each of them that way?

Every single person in my family, I made them certain ways, ordered their lives in certain ways, including that moment when spiritual life would begin in these certain ones, and at the end of it all, they will be exactly what I set out to create, a family who loves me. Guaranteed to work, because that's what I built.

Or.

I have a family who loves me. I've won them over, each of them, one by one, and the love they return is because they want to. They don't have to. They had everything against them, inside, outside, all of it. But letting them see me, I've won them over, and they've come to love me.

Not everyone. Many choose not too, and that is so tragic! But I knew that would be the cost for keeping it real.

Call it a little speculation on my part . . .

Much love!

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marks said:

Let me try a different way.

It's like a man is taken to court, charged with a crime, found guilty, fined, and someone else steps up with the money, pays, all is settled, and you are free to go. So they take you to the hallway, where you see two doors. One door says, "Men". The other door says, "Women". So they process you out separately. You take the gender appropriate door. It has nothing to do with the outcome of your trial, it's a different thing entirely, not what you've done, but who you are.

And so mankind is taken before his judge, who then pronounces judgments. All will be judged for their works. Saved, unsaved, all. And after that judgment, each will exit according to who they are, the living into life with God, the dead into the eternal death of the lake of fire.

So there is judgment, and there is condemnation. The judgment based on words, the condemnation based on whether or not you are among the living. No dead people in heaven. Sorry, not my rule!

Much love!

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Mjh29 said:

Those who have done the good work of Christ will be resurrected and be with Him, those who do not will not. Kind of self explanatory. Here's the catch; I believe and the Scriptures teach that those who have done good only do so because of the Holy Spirit's work, and those who do not are doing evil according to their natural will. You believe that this "doing good" and "choosing right" saves people.

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