Total Inability: Genesis 1-4

atpollard · Sep 9, 2019

Earburner said:
Acts 2[14] But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
[15] For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
[16] But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
[17] And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
[18] And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[39] For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Have you ever encountered this?

Suddenly, there was a sound from heaven like the roaring of a mighty windstorm, and it filled the house where they were sitting. Then, what looked like flames or tongues of fire appeared and settled on each of them. And everyone present was filled with the Holy Spirit and began speaking in other languages, as the Holy Spirit gave them this ability.
...
They were completely amazed. "How can this be?" they exclaimed. "These people are all from Galilee, and yet we hear them speaking in our own native languages! Here we are--Parthians, Medes, Elamites, people from Mesopotamia, Judea, Cappadocia, Pontus, the province of Asia, Phrygia, Pamphylia, Egypt, and the areas of Libya around Cyrene, visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism), Cretans, and Arabs. And we all hear these people speaking in our own languages about the wonderful things God has done!"
[Acts 2:2-4, 7-11]

GodsGrace · Sep 9, 2019

atpollard said:
In the parable, he wasn't. We were told to ask Him to send more workers. However, I never said anything one way or another about this so it is a non-sequitur.

I never made such a claim ... another non-sequitur.

No.

My turn to ask a question of YOU:
What does this verse mean?

How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" Romans 10:14-15

[

Easy.
Romans 10:14-15
14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”

We could start with Romans 10:9:
Which states that if we confess with our mouth the Lord Jesus,
and believe in our heart that God raised Him from the dead...
WE WILL BE SAVED.
CONFESS
BELIEVE

Romans 10:11
Scripture states that WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM will not be disapppointed.
WHOEVER

Romans 10:12
The same Lord is LORD OF ALL....
abounding in riches for ALL WHO CALL UPON HIM.

Romans 10:13
Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord,
WILL BE SAVED.
WHOEVER.

whoever
[ hoo-ev-er ]
|

pronoun; possessive whos·ev·er; objective whom·ev·er.
whatever person; anyone that:Whoever did it should be proud. Ask whoever is there. Tell it to whomever you like.
no matter who:I won't do it, whoever asks.

source: Definition of whoever | Dictionary.com

......................................................................................................

Romans 10:14
How do we ask God to save us IF we do NOT believe in Him?
How do we believe in Him IF we have not heard of Him?
How do we hear about God if there is no preacher?

And please note
Romans 10:16
However, THEY DID NOT ALL HEED the glad tidings....
HEED: Pay attention to: Take notice of

And Romans 10:17
FAITH COMES from HEARING...
Hearing THE WORD OF CHRIST.

Free Will - libertarian - all over the N.T.
Choice, which requires free will- all over the N.T.

atpollard · Sep 9, 2019

GodsGrace said:
[

Easy.
Romans 10:14-15
14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”

We could start with Romans 10:9:
Which states that if we confess with our mouth the Lord Jesus,
and believe in our heart that God raised Him from the dead...
WE WILL BE SAVED.
CONFESS
BELIEVE

Romans 10:11
Scripture states that WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM will not be disapppointed.
WHOEVER

Romans 10:12
The same Lord is LORD OF ALL....
abounding in riches for ALL WHO CALL UPON HIM.

Romans 10:13
Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord,
WILL BE SAVED.
WHOEVER.

whoever
[ hoo-ev-er ]
|

pronoun; possessive whos·ev·er; objective whom·ev·er.
whatever person; anyone that:Whoever did it should be proud. Ask whoever is there. Tell it to whomever you like.
no matter who:I won't do it, whoever asks.

source: Definition of whoever | Dictionary.com

......................................................................................................

Romans 10:14
How do we ask God to save us IF we do NOT believe in Him?
How do we believe in Him IF we have not heard of Him?
How do we hear about God if there is no preacher?

And please note
Romans 10:16
However, THEY DID NOT ALL HEED the glad tidings....
HEED: Pay attention to: Take notice of

And Romans 10:17
FAITH COMES from HEARING...
Hearing THE WORD OF CHRIST.

Free Will - libertarian - all over the N.T.
Choice, which requires free will- all over the N.T.

I am a bit surprised. I had not expected you to champion the cause that God personally preached to every individual in the world in 33 AD forward without the use of any human speaker ... thus explaining how the people in the Western Hemisphere were DRAWN to the "lifted up" Jesus starting in the First Century AD.

That was the claim of Earburner that prompted the challenge to explain that verse.
Since you accepted the challenge for him ... I do not see how your understanding of Romans 10:14-15 is compatible with your (his) previous claim that the Holy Spirit actively spreads the gospel to all just like Ananias and Paul (at Damascus).

Mjh29 · Sep 9, 2019

GodsGrace said:
Did God determine that Adam was to eat the fruit?

Yep. That's what God does. He determines the course of all things; Time and Space were His creation; all that would ever happen in time happened because He ordained it.

GodsGrace said:
Does God have to determine everything that happens because He's so afraid of free will?

No. God determines everything because He is God and time is His creation. He is the KING; all things that happen in His kingdom happen because He allows them.

GodsGrace said:
Would YOU want YOUR wife to love you because you forced her to?
Or your friend, or sibling, or anyone you love.

You clearly don't understand the meaning of fallen will. Man doesn't WANT to know God; he HATES God, and always will until God changes His heart and gives man a new one. Man is sinful, not neutral. You present man as neutral; not good but not bad and waiting to make a decision. The Scriptures present man in a very different light.

GodsGrace said:
THAT is not real love.

And you know what real love is, right? Perfect love? The kind of love God has for His people, you understand that? Nope. You understand fallen love; love that cannot be complete and whole without the work of the Holy Spirit. Even if man DID love God in and of himself, this love would be disgusting to God; we are SINNERS! Even our good deeds are filthy rags! God doesn't want our fallen love; not apart from the Holy Spirit and the work of Christ. Your love is abhorrent to Him! It is incomplete and tainted by sin after sin; and to the Holy God, it is abominable.

GodsGrace said:
And, it looks to me like YOU are backed into the corner...

Where's my verse stating Jesus died for only a select few?
Where's my verse stating that God removed free will from our make up?

Verses on Christ Dying for a Specific People:

~ Matthew 1:21 -- Died for ALL men? Nope. He died for HIS PEOPLE
~ Matthew 20:28 -- A ransom for ALL? Nope. A randsom for MANY
~ John 10:11 -- Died for ALL? Nope. For HIS SHEEP.
~ John 11:50-53 -- Died for ALL? Nope. Died for the PEOPLE OF GOD
~ Acts of the Apostles 20:28 -- Died for ALL? Nope. Died for THE CHURCH
~ Ephesians 5:25-27 -- Died for ALL? Nope. Died for THE CHURCH
~ Hebrews 9:15 -- Died for ALL? Nope. Died for THOSE WHO ARE THE CALLED.
~ John 6:35-40 -- Died for ALL? Nope. Died for ALL THOSE WHOM THE FATHER WOULD GIVE
~ John 10:14-18 -- Died for ALL? Nope. Died for THE SHEEP
~ John 10: 24-29 -- Died for ALL? Nope. Died for THE FLOCK

Verses about the Elect:

~ Matthew 22:14 -- Few are chosen.
~ Matthew 24:22 -- The days were cut short for everyone? Nope. For the ELECT
~ Matthew 24:24 -- Lead astray everyone? Nope. Not the ELECT
~ Matthew 24:31 -- The angels will gather everyone? Nope. They gather the ELECT
~ Luke 18:7 -- God will give justice to everyone? Nope. To His ELECT
~ Romans 8:28-30 -- All are called, justified and glorified? Nope. The ELECT are predestined [God ordained it] , called, justified and glorified.
~ Romans 8:33 -- God's ELECT
~ Romans 11:28 -- Here we see that the ELECT, though they may be enemies at the time, are DESTINED to be brought into the church as brothers
~ Colossians 3:12 -- God's CHOSEN
~ 1 Thessalonians 5:9 -- God has DESTINED us to obtain salvation?!? But how could He know before we use our "free will" ?!?
~ 1 Peter 2:8-9 -- Wait, men are DESTINED to fall when they do?!? But... "free will" ?!?

Before I begin with the verses against free will, firstly I would like to ask the same of you that you ask of me; show me the verse where free will is expressly talked about [mentioned 0 times in the Scriptures]

Verses Against "Free Will"

1.) Our wills cannot be free; Jesus himself said we cannot serve 2 masters; and the Scriptures say our will's master is Satan.

~ John 8:44 -- What is our will? To do the work of Satan
~ Ephesians 2:1-2 -- Who do we follow? Satan
~ 2 Timothy 2:25-26 -- Whose will do we do? Satan's
~ 1 John 3:10 -- Who are we children of? The Devil
~ John 8:34 -- How can our will be free when we are the SLAVES OF SIN?
~ Romans 6:20 -- SLAVES OF SIN
~ Titus 3:3 -- SLAVES OF SIN

2.) We cannot change this state!

~ Job 14:4 -- Can our wills bring out good when they are naturally evil? Nope.
~ Jeremiah 13:23 -- Can we do good when we are Slaves to sin and evil? Nope.
~ Matthew 7:16-18 -- Can we, who are slaves to sin, bear any good fruit? Nope.
~ Matthew 12:33 -- No good fruit from the wicked
~ John 6:65 -- Can we, who are dead in sins, go to the Father? Not unless it is granted by Christ through the Spirit
~ 2 Corinthians 3:5 -- Do we have anything in ourselves that is sufficient? Nope.

My views are not based on tradition. They are not based on feelings or my own petty view of what's "fair". My views are based on the teachings of Scriptures; nothing more, nothing less.

Earburner · Sep 9, 2019

atpollard said:
Have you ever encountered this?

Suddenly, there was a sound from heaven like the roaring of a mighty windstorm, and it filled the house where they were sitting. Then, what looked like flames or tongues of fire appeared and settled on each of them. And everyone present was filled with the Holy Spirit and began speaking in other languages, as the Holy Spirit gave them this ability.
...
They were completely amazed. "How can this be?" they exclaimed. "These people are all from Galilee, and yet we hear them speaking in our own native languages! Here we are--Parthians, Medes, Elamites, people from Mesopotamia, Judea, Cappadocia, Pontus, the province of Asia, Phrygia, Pamphylia, Egypt, and the areas of Libya around Cyrene, visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism), Cretans, and Arabs. And we all hear these people speaking in our own languages about the wonderful things God has done!"
[Acts 2:2-4, 7-11]

No, but I have experienced this:
Acts 2[17] And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
> Does that make the Spirit of God within me any less important or effective?
No, not in the least bit, because that which was prophesied, took place in me.

Earburner · Sep 9, 2019

Mjh29 said:
Yep. That's what God does. He determines the course of all things; Time and Space were His creation; all that would ever happen in time happened because He ordained it.

No. God determines everything because He is God and time is His creation. He is the KING; all things that happen in His kingdom happen because He allows them.

You clearly don't understand the meaning of fallen will. Man doesn't WANT to know God; he HATES God, and always will until God changes His heart and gives man a new one. Man is sinful, not neutral. You present man as neutral; not good but not bad and waiting to make a decision. The Scriptures present man in a very different light.

And you know what real love is, right? Perfect love? The kind of love God has for His people, you understand that? Nope. You understand fallen love; love that cannot be complete and whole without the work of the Holy Spirit. Even if man DID love God in and of himself, this love would be disgusting to God; we are SINNERS! Even our good deeds are filthy rags! God doesn't want our fallen love; not apart from the Holy Spirit and the work of Christ. Your love is abhorrent to Him! It is incomplete and tainted by sin after sin; and to the Holy God, it is abominable.

Verses on Christ Dying for a Specific People:

~ Matthew 1:21 -- Died for ALL men? Nope. He died for HIS PEOPLE
~ Matthew 20:28 -- A ransom for ALL? Nope. A randsom for MANY
~ John 10:11 -- Died for ALL? Nope. For HIS SHEEP.
~ John 11:50-53 -- Died for ALL? Nope. Died for the PEOPLE OF GOD
~ Acts of the Apostles 20:28 -- Died for ALL? Nope. Died for THE CHURCH
~ Ephesians 5:25-27 -- Died for ALL? Nope. Died for THE CHURCH
~ Hebrews 9:15 -- Died for ALL? Nope. Died for THOSE WHO ARE THE CALLED.
~ John 6:35-40 -- Died for ALL? Nope. Died for ALL THOSE WHOM THE FATHER WOULD GIVE
~ John 10:14-18 -- Died for ALL? Nope. Died for THE SHEEP
~ John 10: 24-29 -- Died for ALL? Nope. Died for THE FLOCK

Verses about the Elect:

~ Matthew 22:14 -- Few are chosen.
~ Matthew 24:22 -- The days were cut short for everyone? Nope. For the ELECT
~ Matthew 24:24 -- Lead astray everyone? Nope. Not the ELECT
~ Matthew 24:31 -- The angels will gather everyone? Nope. They gather the ELECT
~ Luke 18:7 -- God will give justice to everyone? Nope. To His ELECT
~ Romans 8:28-30 -- All are called, justified and glorified? Nope. The ELECT are predestined [God ordained it] , called, justified and glorified.
~ Romans 8:33 -- God's ELECT
~ Romans 11:28 -- Here we see that the ELECT, though they may be enemies at the time, are DESTINED to be brought into the church as brothers
~ Colossians 3:12 -- God's CHOSEN
~ 1 Thessalonians 5:9 -- God has DESTINED us to obtain salvation?!? But how could He know before we use our "free will" ?!?
~ 1 Peter 2:8-9 -- Wait, men are DESTINED to fall when they do?!? But... "free will" ?!?

Before I begin with the verses against free will, firstly I would like to ask the same of you that you ask of me; show me the verse where free will is expressly talked about [mentioned 0 times in the Scriptures]

Verses Against "Free Will"

1.) Our wills cannot be free; Jesus himself said we cannot serve 2 masters; and the Scriptures say our will's master is Satan.

~ John 8:44 -- What is our will? To do the work of Satan
~ Ephesians 2:1-2 -- Who do we follow? Satan
~ 2 Timothy 2:25-26 -- Whose will do we do? Satan's
~ 1 John 3:10 -- Who are we children of? The Devil
~ John 8:34 -- How can our will be free when we are the SLAVES OF SIN?
~ Romans 6:20 -- SLAVES OF SIN
~ Titus 3:3 -- SLAVES OF SIN

2.) We cannot change this state!

~ Job 14:4 -- Can our wills bring out good when they are naturally evil? Nope.
~ Jeremiah 13:23 -- Can we do good when we are Slaves to sin and evil? Nope.
~ Matthew 7:16-18 -- Can we, who are slaves to sin, bear any good fruit? Nope.
~ Matthew 12:33 -- No good fruit from the wicked
~ John 6:65 -- Can we, who are dead in sins, go to the Father? Not unless it is granted by Christ through the Spirit
~ 2 Corinthians 3:5 -- Do we have anything in ourselves that is sufficient? Nope.

My views are not based on tradition. They are not based on feelings or my own petty view of what's "fair". My views are based on the teachings of Scriptures; nothing more, nothing less.

Every time you sin, that is an expression of YOUR free will.
Now go ahead and tell me that YOU don't sin, and both I and scripture will call you a liar.

Mjh29 · Sep 9, 2019

Earburner said:
Every time you sin, that is an expression of YOUR free will.
Now go ahead and tell me that YOU don't sin, and both I and scripture will call you a liar.

Oh I sin. But this is not of my Free Will; it is of my fallen will.

Now, go ahead and assume you know what I'll say nex... oh, too late.

Earburner · Sep 9, 2019

atpollard said:
In the parable, he wasn't. We were told to ask Him to send more workers. However, I never said anything one way or another about this so it is a non-sequitur.

I never made such a claim ... another non-sequitur.

No.

My turn to ask a question of YOU:
What does this verse mean?

How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" [Romans 10:14-15]

Continue the context:
[16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
[17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
[18] But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

marks · Sep 9, 2019

Mjh29 said:
And you know what real love is, right? Perfect love? The kind of love God has for His people, you understand that? Nope. You understand fallen love; love that cannot be complete and whole without the work of the Holy Spirit. Even if man DID love God in and of himself, this love would be disgusting to God; we are SINNERS! Even our good deeds are filthy rags! God doesn't want our fallen love; not apart from the Holy Spirit and the work of Christ. Your love is abhorrent to Him! It is incomplete and tainted by sin after sin; and to the Holy God, it is abominable.

Very good point to understand.

Just because something looks good to us does not mean that's how it is to God.

Much love!

Mjh29 · Sep 9, 2019

marks said:
Very good point to understand.

Just because something looks good to us does not mean that's how it is to God.

Much love!

Agreed! Even David cried out for forgiveness of 'secret sins'; things he did wrong that, at the time, may not have looked wrong to him, but was most certainly wrong in the sight of God. We need to remember that our wills are fallen and sinful; we cannot understand God and His perfection, or try to appease it apart from the work of the Spirit and the Blood of Christ!

marks · Sep 9, 2019

Mjh29 said:
Agreed! Even David cried out for forgiveness of 'secret sins'; things he did wrong that, at the time, may not have looked wrong to him, but was most certainly wrong in the sight of God. We need to remember that our wills are fallen and sinful; we cannot understand God and His perfection, or try to appease it apart from the work of the Spirit and the Blood of Christ!

This is one of the primary reasons why I think no one can properly claim to be "Without Sin".

Even when I think I'm walking in the Spirit without sin, I still can only say, "without the consciousness of sin", since, after all, I don't always realize.

"or try to appease it apart from . . . Christ" So very important, just like we can't go by our own ideas about sin, we equally can't go by our own ideas on sin's remedy.

Much love!

Earburner · Sep 9, 2019

Mjh29 said:
Oh I sin. But this is not of my Free Will; it is of my fallen will.

Now, go ahead and assume you know what I'll say nex... oh, too late.

Oh, but you do have the power to choose to walk in your fallen free will. You do so, by neglecting to walk in the Spirit.
So, I don't assume anything of what you'll say next, but I do know what scripture says about how we must CHOOSE to "walk in the Spirit". But if we don't choose, then we will fulfill the lust of the flesh, as shown in verse 20-21. And by that, we pursue it with our own permission.
Gal. 5[16] This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Earburner · Sep 9, 2019

marks said:
This is one of the primary reasons why I think no one can properly claim to be "Without Sin".

Even when I think I'm walking in the Spirit without sin, I still can only say, "without the consciousness of sin", since, after all, I don't always realize.

"or try to appease it apart from . . . Christ" So very important, just like we can't go by our own ideas about sin, we equally can't go by our own ideas on sin's remedy.

Much love!

Earburner · Sep 9, 2019

There is a lack of understanding among Christions about being "without sin"
In Christ, we are sin-less before the Father, but in our flesh, we are not sin-free.

atpollard · Sep 9, 2019

Earburner said:
No, but I have experienced this:
Acts 2[17] And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
> Does that make the Spirit of God within me any less important or effective?
No, not in the least bit, because that which was prophesied, took place in me.

Peter said that the verses that I quoted were the fulfillment of that prophecy. Peter disagrees with you.

atpollard · Sep 9, 2019

Earburner said:
Continue the context:
[16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
[17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
[18] But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Just so I understand (since you are so light on explanation) ...

The need for messengers in Romans 10:14-15 are negated in Romans 10:16-18.
Every person in the world, without exception, has been informed of Jesus by the Holy Spirit starting in the First Century and continuing to this day.
There is really no need for missionaries because God has already spread the word.

If I have misunderstood any part of your position, then please just correct me.

GodsGrace · Sep 10, 2019

atpollard said:
I am a bit surprised. I had not expected you to champion the cause that God personally preached to every individual in the world in 33 AD forward without the use of any human speaker ... thus explaining how the people in the Western Hemisphere were DRAWN to the "lifted up" Jesus starting in the First Century AD.

That was the claim of Earburner that prompted the challenge to explain that verse.
Since you accepted the challenge for him ... I do not see how your understanding of Romans 10:14-15 is compatible with your (his) previous claim that the Holy Spirit actively spreads the gospel to all just like Ananias and Paul (at Damascus).

I've quoted many times
Romans 1:19-20
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

God has ALWAYS revealed Himself to humans...
even before the 1st century AD....
Even before the bible was written.
However, we were discussing scripture...
so I answered with scripture. This seems to me to be the normal thing to do.
And your remark about God preaching personally to each human is rather silly...
although God DOES reveal Himself to us in a personal way. God is always the initiator of a relationship with Him. From the beginning of time.

I'm not picking up any challenge...
This is an open forum and ANYONE could join in any conversation at any point in time.
If persons wish to speak privately, there is a feature available via Private Messaging.

My personal understanding of scripture and life is that the Holy Spirit can work with anyone in any way He sees fit. The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin...each of us in a different way.

I do wish you'd answer to scripture instead of making comments about it.

GodsGrace · Sep 10, 2019

Mjh29 said:
Yep. That's what God does. He determines the course of all things; Time and Space were His creation; all that would ever happen in time happened because He ordained it.

This is very interesting indeed.

Since you say God determines EVERYTHING,,,He must surely be a God of confusion...
and yet the bible teaches me that He is NOT a God of confusion.

1 Corinthians 14:33
33for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

If God wants order in A CHURCH and so Paul gave instruction on speaking in tongues...imagine how much God desires orderliness IN LIFE.

And yet, here we are:
YOU believe God predestinates everything..
I believe in Free Will...
Surely this is CONFUSION.
Why would God make us believe differently IF HE ORDERS EVERYTHING??
Is He a stage director?
Are we the actors?

No. God determines everything because He is God and time is His creation. He is the KING; all things that happen in His kingdom happen because He allows them.

So then I guess God predetermined the killing of all the children in Bethlehem when Jesus was born?
Matthew 2:16

God is a murderer?
And yet one of the commandments is
YOU WILL NOT MURDER.
Exodus 20:13

So, God, THE MORAL BEING, does not follow His own commandments?

You clearly don't understand the meaning of fallen will. Man doesn't WANT to know God; he HATES God, and always will until God changes His heart and gives man a new one. Man is sinful, not neutral. You present man as neutral; not good but not bad and waiting to make a decision. The Scriptures present man in a very different light.

Please post the scripture that you're speaking of.

And you know what real love is, right? Perfect love? The kind of love God has for His people, you understand that? Nope. You understand fallen love; love that cannot be complete and whole without the work of the Holy Spirit. Even if man DID love God in and of himself, this love would be disgusting to God; we are SINNERS! Even our good deeds are filthy rags! God doesn't want our fallen love; not apart from the Holy Spirit and the work of Christ. Your love is abhorrent to Him! It is incomplete and tainted by sin after sin; and to the Holy God, it is abominable.

Maybe what you say is true of you.
I am a child of God that sins.

Verses on Christ Dying for a Specific People:

~ Matthew 1:21 -- Died for ALL men? Nope. He died for HIS PEOPLE
~ Matthew 20:28 -- A ransom for ALL? Nope. A randsom for MANY
~ John 10:11 -- Died for ALL? Nope. For HIS SHEEP.
~ John 11:50-53 -- Died for ALL? Nope. Died for the PEOPLE OF GOD
~ Acts of the Apostles 20:28 -- Died for ALL? Nope. Died for THE CHURCH
~ Ephesians 5:25-27 -- Died for ALL? Nope. Died for THE CHURCH
~ Hebrews 9:15 -- Died for ALL? Nope. Died for THOSE WHO ARE THE CALLED.
~ John 6:35-40 -- Died for ALL? Nope. Died for ALL THOSE WHOM THE FATHER WOULD GIVE
~ John 10:14-18 -- Died for ALL? Nope. Died for THE SHEEP
~ John 10: 24-29 -- Died for ALL? Nope. Died for THE FLOCK

Verses about the Elect:

~ Matthew 22:14 -- Few are chosen.
~ Matthew 24:22 -- The days were cut short for everyone? Nope. For the ELECT
~ Matthew 24:24 -- Lead astray everyone? Nope. Not the ELECT
~ Matthew 24:31 -- The angels will gather everyone? Nope. They gather the ELECT
~ Luke 18:7 -- God will give justice to everyone? Nope. To His ELECT
~ Romans 8:28-30 -- All are called, justified and glorified? Nope. The ELECT are predestined [God ordained it] , called, justified and glorified.
~ Romans 8:33 -- God's ELECT
~ Romans 11:28 -- Here we see that the ELECT, though they may be enemies at the time, are DESTINED to be brought into the church as brothers
~ Colossians 3:12 -- God's CHOSEN
~ 1 Thessalonians 5:9 -- God has DESTINED us to obtain salvation?!? But how could He know before we use our "free will" ?!?
~ 1 Peter 2:8-9 -- Wait, men are DESTINED to fall when they do?!? But... "free will" ?!?

Before I begin with the verses against free will, firstly I would like to ask the same of you that you ask of me; show me the verse where free will is expressly talked about [mentioned 0 times in the Scriptures]

Verses Against "Free Will"

1.) Our wills cannot be free; Jesus himself said we cannot serve 2 masters; and the Scriptures say our will's master is Satan.

~ John 8:44 -- What is our will? To do the work of Satan
~ Ephesians 2:1-2 -- Who do we follow? Satan
~ 2 Timothy 2:25-26 -- Whose will do we do? Satan's
~ 1 John 3:10 -- Who are we children of? The Devil
~ John 8:34 -- How can our will be free when we are the SLAVES OF SIN?
~ Romans 6:20 -- SLAVES OF SIN
~ Titus 3:3 -- SLAVES OF SIN

2.) We cannot change this state!

~ Job 14:4 -- Can our wills bring out good when they are naturally evil? Nope.
~ Jeremiah 13:23 -- Can we do good when we are Slaves to sin and evil? Nope.
~ Matthew 7:16-18 -- Can we, who are slaves to sin, bear any good fruit? Nope.
~ Matthew 12:33 -- No good fruit from the wicked
~ John 6:65 -- Can we, who are dead in sins, go to the Father? Not unless it is granted by Christ through the Spirit
~ 2 Corinthians 3:5 -- Do we have anything in ourselves that is sufficient? Nope.

My views are not based on tradition. They are not based on feelings or my own petty view of what's "fair". My views are based on the teachings of Scriptures; nothing more, nothing less.

Since your views are based on scripture...you should use it more.
Carpet bombing fails every time.

Pick a verse you like and we'll discuss it.

atpollard · Sep 10, 2019

GodsGrace said:
I do wish you'd answer to scripture instead of making comments about it.

Explain the difference and use your post below as an example so I can understand how YOU have "answered to scripture" and not "made comments about it" ...

GodsGrace said:
I've quoted many times
Romans 1:19-20
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

God has ALWAYS revealed Himself to humans...
even before the 1st century AD....
Even before the bible was written.
However, we were discussing scripture...
so I answered with scripture. This seems to me to be the normal thing to do.
And your remark about God preaching personally to each human is rather silly...
although God DOES reveal Himself to us in a personal way. God is always the initiator of a relationship with Him. From the beginning of time.

I'm not picking up any challenge...
This is an open forum and ANYONE could join in any conversation at any point in time.
If persons wish to speak privately, there is a feature available via Private Messaging.

My personal understanding of scripture and life is that the Holy Spirit can work with anyone in any way He sees fit. The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin...each of us in a different way.

I do wish you'd answer to scripture instead of making comments about it.

atpollard · Sep 10, 2019

GodsGrace said:
So then I guess God predetermined the killing of all the children in Bethlehem when Jesus was born?
Matthew 2:16

It did not come as a surprise to God ...

[Mat 2:13-18 NIV] 13 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. "Get up," he said, "take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him." 14 So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, 15 where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son." 16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. 17 Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: 18 "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more."

God prophesied about it long before it happened and God warned Joseph just before it happened, so God knew it was going to happen.

Scripture also says that "God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose" [Romans 8:28], so do you believe that "all things" really means "ALL things"?

Total Inability: Genesis 1-4

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