All the ELECT please stand up

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farouk

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I'm sorry, but this strikes me as a MOST ridiculous post. "It can't be proven physically". Man, you just described the Christian faith. Or, at least 90% of it. "Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Heb 11:1). Faith is the founding principle of the Christian belief and it totally relies on things not physically provable.

For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” -Romans 1:17

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. -Romans 10:17

for we walk by faith, not by sight. -2 Corinthians 5:7

We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. -Galatians 2:15–16

Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:2



So...if our faith is so founded on something that is NOT physical, you saying you cannot accept something within our faith unless you can see it provable in that way, is rather laughable, is it not?
You say that the bible just has "generic" passages talking about election. Well, it's still Gods word, which still makes these 'generic' passages much more important than your insistance for something tangible. I seem to remember something like that coming from Thomas. What did he get labelled again? 'Doubting'? There is a very good reason our beliefs are based upon faith . Let's see if we can't make some rather logical conclusions with the passages God has provided us with.

Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. -Romans 8:33

Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God's elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness, in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began -Titus 1:1–2

Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. -2 Timothy 2:10–11


Ok, so we have these 'generic' passages with 'election' in them. But they give us specifications of how we can know if we fall into this category. Romans 8:33 tells us that the elect are those whom God 'justifies'. Where else in scripture tells us how a person is justified?

the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. -Romans 3:22–25

Titus 1:1-2 lines up election with 'faith' again, and we've seen above how much faith is a crucial part of Christian life. Without faith we are not saved. Titus 1:1-2 also tells us that the elect will have a knowledge of the truth. What does scripture say about this?

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, -Ephesians 1:13

But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. - 2 Thessalonians 2:13


Titus also speaks of hope, another 'un'physical attribute of the Christian walk.

Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. - Romans 5:2

and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. - Romans 5:5

For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? - Romans 8:24


And, the last verse given that speaks of the 'elect' links it directly with a person gaining salvation. I'm not sure I have to dig through scripture to show what that means!

But the point, I hope, is clear. You may say that the passages that speak of election are generic and unclear, but that is not the case. Far from it. It is the simplest thing to do to follow the authors (God's) thoughts throughout his book in this instance.

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. -Romans 8:29–30

Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. -Romans 8:33
We were looking at Ephesians tonight. Hard to deny that it says what it says...
 
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Enoch111

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Misinterpreted how? If I may ask...?
Predestination and election are for those who are already saved and will be perfected or glorified by the grace of God. They are NOT for electing some to Heaven and others to Hell (as many erroneously believe).

According as he hath chosen us [the saints] in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (Eph 1:4)

The reason for God having chosen His children from before the foundation of the world is stated right here -- that they should resemble Christ and be morally (without blame) and spiritually perfect (holy), and completely filled with the love of God. This will only happen perfectly at the Resurrection/Rapture which is for the perfecting and glorifying of the saints.

Having predestinated us [the saints] unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will...(Eph 1:5)

Since the children of God are in fact His children through the New Birth (born of God, born of the Spirit, born from above, born again) they are not being adopted like adoption is practiced on earth (children not related by blood becoming a part of a human family). So what is this heavenly adoption (since our citizenship is in Heaven)?

It speaks of all the rights and privileges of those who are heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. So predestination is for the purpose of divine adoption, not salvation (justification). Thayer's Greek Lexicon says that adoption is "the consummate condition of the sons of God, which will render it evident that they are the sons of God", which means the future perfection and glorification of the saints when they will also possess their eternal inheritance. As John says "we shall be like Him [Christ] for we shall see Him as He is" (1 Jn 3:2).
 
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Kermos

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Predestination and election are for those who are already saved and will be perfected or glorified by the grace of God. They are NOT for electing some to Heaven and others to Hell (as many erroneously believe).

According as he hath chosen us [the saints] in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (Eph 1:4)

The reason for God having chosen His children from before the foundation of the world is stated right here -- that they should resemble Christ and be morally (without blame) and spiritually perfect (holy), and completely filled with the love of God. This will only happen perfectly at the Resurrection/Rapture which is for the perfecting and glorifying of the saints.

Having predestinated us [the saints] unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will...(Eph 1:5)

Since the children of God are in fact His children through the New Birth (born of God, born of the Spirit, born from above, born again) they are not being adopted like adoption is practiced on earth (children not related by blood becoming a part of a human family). So what is this heavenly adoption (since our citizenship is in Heaven)?

It speaks of all the rights and privileges of those who are heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. So predestination is for the purpose of divine adoption, not salvation (justification). Thayer's Greek Lexicon says that adoption is "the consummate condition of the sons of God, which will render it evident that they are the sons of God", which means the future perfection and glorification of the saints when they will also possess their eternal inheritance. As John says "we shall be like Him [Christ] for we shall see Him as He is" (1 Jn 3:2).
Desparate to prove the unscriptural willpower of man toward God, you, Enoch111, improperly divide the passage!

Here are the Apostle Paul's words, "Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved." (Ephesians 1:3-6).

Ephesians 1:4 is non-exclusive; in other words, Ephesians 1:4 does NOT state "foundation of the world, FOR THE ONLY PURPOSE that we would be" sanctification; in other words, the context of Ephesians 1:4 is not in your imaginary vacuum, so, behold Enoch111, the passage does not exclude God's election of man for salvation, in fact, the passage clearly addresses salvation with the adoption for we believers are grafted in (Romans 11:17).

Paul sandwiches "that we would be holy and blameless before Him" (Ephesians 1:4) between "every spiritual blessing" (Ephesians 1:3) and "He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself" (Ephesians 1:5) thus PAUL ESPOUSES THE COMBINATION OF SALVATION AND SANCTIFICATION!

The meaning of Paul's words, "that we would be holy and blameless before Him" (Ephesians 1:4), indicates the covering against sin - that is salvations, that is "to the praise of the glory of His grace" - HIS GRACE, behold how the Beloved Christ Jesus brings us believers in "according to the kind intention of His will".

You must twist and distort word meaning and context of the passage in your vain attempt to alter the meaning of the passage, and you faulty interpretation fails miserably!

GOD KNOWS THE CHOSEN/ELECT BY NAME: The Apostle John disagrees with "Jesus does not know specifically who are His own" free-willians when he wrote "only those whose names are written" "in the book of life from the foundation of the world" in "written in the book of life from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 17:8) and "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27) thus God knows the names of the individuals that are God's from the foundation of the world, so there is no surprise for God which persons are elect.

Respecting the proper exegesis of the Ephesians 1:5 passage, Lord Jesus said:

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." (John 6:37)

"Will come" is future tense; therefore, this is God's predestination described by Lord Jesus Himself. God knows His own (John 10:14). This is about salvation. This is about sanctification. Paul's words sync up with Jesus' words.

WOW, ENOCH111, THAT IS ALL ABOUT GOD'S WORK IN MAN'S SALVATION NOT MAN'S WORK IN MAN'S SALVATION. GOD SAVES BY GOD'S GRACE FOR GOD'S GLORY!

You really need to read these before you pass, Proofs of God's Sovereignty In Man's Salvation and Freewiller's Distortions of Scripture includng the Lord Jesus' words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) Post (in this thread).

Man is incapable of choosing God for the Word of God states "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). Every single time you, Enoch111, write against these precious words of Lord Jesus you deny Lord Jesus, and Lord Jesus said "whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 10:33).
 
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Enoch111

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Man is incapable of choosing God for the Word of God states "you did not choose Me, but I chose you"...
You continue to abuse and misuse this Scripture, but the words of Christ REFUTE your nonsense. So pay close attention to this:

1. Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. (Mt 11:28)
If Christ were selectively choosing some, He would NEVER had said this.

2. Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
If God were selectively choosing some, He could NEVER have said this.

3. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
If God were selectively choosing some, He could NEVER have said this.

4. And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply [therefore] they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
If God were selectively choosing some, He could NEVER have said this.

DO YOU SEE HOW THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS EXPOSED YOUR FALSE THEOLOGY?
 

Kermos

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Since you know you don't have a leg to stand on, you keep repeating this verse over and over again, hoping that if a lie is repeatedly sufficiently, it will someone gain credibility.

But that you are ABUSING AND MISUSING this Scripture is clear from the words of Christ Himself: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (Jn 3:17)

Since God desires the salvation of the world, He cannot possibly choose some for salvation and others for damnation. He would be violating His own words and His own character. And yet this has not penetrated your heart and mind, and probably never will. But when you give account, you will be told that you received the truth and RESISTED it.
Shame on you Enoch111, you call the words of Lord Jesus a lie when He declares "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16)!

The world in John 3:17 is referring to God's elect. You do understand the Word of God.

Lord Jesus also said "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved" (Matthew 10:22) and that "hated by all" does not mean everyone rather the meaning is all the unbelievers will hate believers since we people in the Assembly of God love each other and, most importantly, God loves the one who endures. That "all" in "hated by all" is a reference to a set of people, yet with the constraint established by the context which is "all" unbelievers.

The "world" in John 3:16-17 is a reference to a set of people, yet with the constraint established by the context which is God's chosen people.

The Name of Lord Jesus is represented by His words that He chooses people not people choosing Him (John 15:16); therefore, you fail to believe the power that is represented in the Name of Lord Jesus which includes His exclusive domain in man's salvation since you brazenly cling to your imaginary choice of Jesus, so you need to read more of the passage that you truncated when you stopped at John 3:17 for Lord Jesus says "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" (John 3:18).

Only we believers in whom the work of God has been performed believe in Jesus Who the Father has sent (John 6:29), so every occurrance of the verb conjugate of "believe" in the Son of God in John 3:16-18 are the work of God - not man - the work of God!

"BELIEVE" IN JOHN 3:16-18 IS A FUNCTION OF "BELIEVE" DEFINED BY JESUS IN JOHN 6:29.

Your misconception of this does not change the fact that the "world" refers to God's elect.

That makes you abusing the Word of God for the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).
 

Kermos

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Since you doubt and deny, then try this in Rev. also:
3[20] Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if ANY man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

"Any" is synonymous with "whosoever".
The context of Revelation 3:20 refers to the assembly of God which is saved people. You are misapplying scripture again to attempt to make it sound like it refers to salvation, but this passage is not referring to salvation.

This passage does not indicate that it's a choice or done by a person's free will, yet we have the words of Lord Jesus saying "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5).

There you go again, trying to add free will to the Book of Revelation for which the Apostle John wrote "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19)!
 

Kermos

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No one here denies John 15:16!!
It's you that is confounded about it, and as a result, you are splitting hairs over your own fabrications, attempting to contend against God, that He never desired, or cared to save all the world, through the Sacrifice of His only begotten Son.

Because you refuse to see/percieve our God given "free will", prior to our fallen nature, you shall always find what YOU WANT to find, for your own understanding in the NASB, NIV, RSV, etc., etc, because those bible versions ARE ALL translated from the "Westcott and Hort Greek text".

However, I quote from only the KJV, which is translated from the "Textus Receptus Greek text".
Therefore, in our interpretations, we shall always be at odds and miles apart, due to two different schools of thought.

Now, since the KJV has been the authorized Bible version, for the English speaking Protestant churches since 1611, and remains to be so for the past 408 years, I am stedfast, in that its wording supercedes any and all other modern versions, for correct understanding.
I have used the Textus Receptus and the Majority Text and ancient Greek manuscript. The KJV translators got some portions wrong. You are deceived by "whosoever will" in the KJV.

God says the glory is all God's for man's salvation (Isaiah 42:8, John 15:5, John 15:16), yet you desparately attempt to steal glory.

That makes you abusing the Word of God for the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

Your false Armenian doctrine leads to death.

I am not a Calvinist.

I am a Christian because I believe in Christ Jesus my Lord and my God!
 

Kermos

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@Earburner, your denial is mute, deaf, and blind when you write "No one here denies John 15:16" in your post number 1252 (page 63 of this thread), then in the very next post - your post #1253 (page 63 of this thread) you try to contort scripture context into meaning that a man can choose salvation in Christ when neither Revelation 3:20 and Revelation 22:17 that you cite are about salvation.

Lord Jesus spoke of salvation of man by God's choice when the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). Neither Revelation 3:20 nor Revelation 22:17 contextually support nor mention free will nor choice toward Jesus.

Mute, deaf, and blind is insufficient to describe your persistent grasping at nothing to support your supposed choice of Jesus - your denial is a dreadfully fearful condition for Lord Jesus Christ said "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned" (Matthew 12:37)!
 

Kermos

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You continue to abuse and misuse this Scripture, but the words of Christ REFUTE your nonsense. So pay close attention to this:

1. Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. (Mt 11:28)
If Christ were selectively choosing some, He would NEVER had said this.

2. Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
If God were selectively choosing some, He could NEVER have said this.

3. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
If God were selectively choosing some, He could NEVER have said this.

4. And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply [therefore] they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
If God were selectively choosing some, He could NEVER have said this.

DO YOU SEE HOW THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS EXPOSED YOUR FALSE THEOLOGY?
You repeat your error again, Enoch111. The first three are commands, but commands do not convey ability - this has been addressed repeatedly in this thread, but you blindly come back with your wrong theology for NOT A SINGLE ONE MENTIONS FREE WILL NOR CHOOSING GOD!

As for the 4th point, which has already been addressed in this thread thus you repeat error again, there is no mention of freewill nor ability to choose God there!

You desparately want to steal God's glory because you claim you chose Jesus, but Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - YOU CALL THE WORDS OF JESUS FALSE THEOLOGY, SO THAT PUTS YOU IN ERROR - NO CHRISTIAN DENIES THE HOLY SPIRIT REVEALED WORD OF GOD AND THE WORD OF GOD SAID "APART FROM ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING" (JOHN 15:5)!
 
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@Kermos Did you ask your wife to marry you or did you both marry because you predestined it? Did you offer her a choice? You do realise I hope that real love demands giving the other person the option to refuse., just as you hopefully gave your wife and she reciprocated the same way... Just as your parents and hers, and mine and no doubt most everyone else on this forum... Unless they are Hindu or Muslim and the marriage was arranged. No choice for either. That is not a relationship built on love. But some learn to love. And then if their love is real, they offer choices. So long as you continue to propose the concept that God by coercion and force of sovereign will joins us to Him, you are accusing God of spiritual rape.
 

Naomi25

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Predestination and election are for those who are already saved and will be perfected or glorified by the grace of God. They are NOT for electing some to Heaven and others to Hell (as many erroneously believe).

According as he hath chosen us [the saints] in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (Eph 1:4)
This is, indeed, a weighty topic, and I by no means claim a familiarity with it that could see me argue the case more eloquantly than many scholars already have.
However, since the topic has arisen, I suppose I must do my level best to defend what I see as the biblical stance on the matter.

You say that predestination and election are for those 'already saved and will be perfected or glorified'...presumably in the age to come.
However, I don't see scripture saying that. It very clearly say that God 'chose us before the foundation of the world'. Now...how are we 'already saved' before the foundation of the world, if even the world wasn't around? Unless it was something that God ordained to be before it, you know, actually came to be.
If we keep reading Eph 1:

he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, -Ephesians 1:5

And then we see this six verses later:

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, -Ephesians 1:11

So, we have God 'choosing us' before the world even began. And it was 'according to the counsel and purpose of his will'. Let me ask you something real quick before we go on: is there anything in that that gives the slightest hint that WE get a say or a part this?
Let's recap what we DO get: we get to be holy and without blame. We get adoption as sons and an inheritance. All amazing, incredible, blessed things. But not a single thing in that implies we get a choice. Why would I WANT a choice? Yes please, sign me up.

The reason for God having chosen His children from before the foundation of the world is stated right here -- that they should resemble Christ and be morally (without blame) and spiritually perfect (holy), and completely filled with the love of God. This will only happen perfectly at the Resurrection/Rapture which is for the perfecting and glorifying of the saints.
This thought has absolutely nothing to do with predesination or election or the verses at hand. Does God want us to grow in holiness and in being like his Son? Absolutely! And yes, the verses tell us that, but not only that. And that is not WHY God 'chose' us before the foundation of the world...in that, it is not why that language has been employed. The author could have just as easily have said "now that you have chosen to give you life fully to God, live in a manner worthy to him and spend your life becoming more Christ-like". He didn't. Instead, he gave us incredible information about God and a word called 'predestination'. Which ought to give us pause in and of itself. We all know about the word 'destiny'...the notion of something in which a higher or hidden power is believed to be able to control future events; of man or the world in general. Christians believe that to be God. We believe it quite strongly, that he has a set plan for man and this world and that nothing will deter him from bringing that good plan to fruition. So why, then, should the notion of 'predestination' be so difficult? The idea that this same God, all knowing, all powerful, all good, having a plan from eternity past?
Because that is what scripture tells us. The word used: προορίζω, means just that. "to predetermine, foreordain".


Having predestinated us [the saints] unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will...(Eph 1:5)

Since the children of God are in fact His children through the New Birth (born of God, born of the Spirit, born from above, born again) they are not being adopted like adoption is practiced on earth (children not related by blood becoming a part of a human family). So what is this heavenly adoption (since our citizenship is in Heaven)?

It speaks of all the rights and privileges of those who are heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. So predestination is for the purpose of divine adoption, not salvation (justification). Thayer's Greek Lexicon says that adoption is "the consummate condition of the sons of God, which will render it evident that they are the sons of God", which means the future perfection and glorification of the saints when they will also possess their eternal inheritance. As John says "we shall be like Him [Christ] for we shall see Him as He is" (1 Jn 3:2).
You know, it seems to me that you throw a lot of words and meanings around in order to try and convince someone (sorry, not me) that a word doesn't actually mean what it means.
In essence, you are attempting here to say that "Predestination" doesn't mean what it actually means (linguistically wise) because adoption in heaven is different from adoption on earth. Is that right?

Well, for my reply, please see above where 'predestination' is actually what it means. Because when we start throwing language out the loungechair...oh goodness, I meant window....you see my point.

My other reasons for seeing 'predestination' and election as biblical and exactly as the words suggest they are; is based upon other verses and considerations as well. Romans 9 is rather crucial when considering this topic, and I would say, hard to argue against: "who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is moulded say to the moulder, 'why have you made me like this?'"

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— Romans 9:22–23

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” -John 6:37–40

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. -John 6:44

But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” -John 6:61–65


Also, Jesus mentions in his High Priestly Prayer about how God has 'given' him the people, out of the world, who were his. And then this:

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. -Acts 13:48

Finally, I see this in Romans, and its something I have seen firsthand. People...don't see, the beauty or simplicity of the gospel. It matters not how eloquent you are, or how rational and convincing a pastor is, or a scientist, or whomever you see put forth a fact of God; people who haven't had their eyes and heart opened by the Spirit of God cannot see.
It really comes down to human sinfulness; without God's grace and mercy, we're lost. If he hadn't chosen us all, at some point along the way (and why isn't before the foundation of the world an excellent time?), we'd all be lost, in a maze of our own making, trying to put a foolish crown upon our own head.

For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written:
None is righteous, no, not one;

no one understands;
no one seeks for God. -Romans 3:9b–11
 
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brakelite

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The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. The moment man sinned, the plan of redemption was out into place... Starting with God's search for Adam and Eve. Through foreknowledge, God knew of the fall, but created man anyway... With the plan of redemption already in place, and the Son already offered. God has thus predetermined man's salvation. All of mankind... Not just some. Christ died for the world... For all men... 2 cor.5:14, Hebrews.2:9 All mankind is accepted in Him (Matt3:17) and thus He is the Saviour of all men John 4:42 but especially if those that believe 1Tim.4:10
Thus all men were chosen. And because Christ died for all men, all men were justified... But not all men are ultimately saved because not all men believe.
 

Kermos

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@Kermos Did you ask your wife to marry you or did you both marry because you predestined it? Did you offer her a choice? You do realise I hope that real love demands giving the other person the option to refuse., just as you hopefully gave your wife and she reciprocated the same way... Just as your parents and hers, and mine and no doubt most everyone else on this forum... Unless they are Hindu or Muslim and the marriage was arranged. No choice for either. That is not a relationship built on love. But some learn to love. And then if their love is real, they offer choices. So long as you continue to propose the concept that God by coercion and force of sovereign will joins us to Him, you are accusing God of spiritual rape.
It is an amazing thing that God would save any (Matthew 19:26-27) which is amazing love (John 3:16) for God is love (1 John 4:7-19)!

According to what I suspect is your theology, specifically that God created everybody - all humans in all time; therefore, extrapolating from your intellectual post, all those who do not choose Jesus were created by God, so they are subject to the wrath of God because they did not choose Jesus. What I suspect is your theology and your intellectualization within your post argue against each other. Some call that cognitive dissonance, but the next paragraph gives a scriptural meaning to it.

Each of you, @Enoch111 @Earburner and @brakelite , attempt to break the Light since you claim to choose Jesus at some level which means your "choice" directly opposes the words of the Lord Jesus, the Light, "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), for the Light says "everyone who does evil hates the Light" (John 3:20), and it is evil to oppose the Word of God, the Light, who says "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

Your void of scripture post speaks volumes about your deceptive theology, brakelite.

God chooses people unto salvation (John 15:16) - not people choosing God (John 15:16). This intrinsic characteristic of the One True God that saves people by God's grace for God's glory is disagreeable in your sight @Enoch111 @Earburner and @brakelite (Joshua 24:15) so you have chosen a false god.
 

Kermos

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The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. The moment man sinned, the plan of redemption was out into place... Starting with God's search for Adam and Eve. Through foreknowledge, God knew of the fall, but created man anyway... With the plan of redemption already in place, and the Son already offered. God has thus predetermined man's salvation. All of mankind... Not just some. Christ died for the world... For all men... 2 cor.5:14, Hebrews.2:9 All mankind is accepted in Him (Matt3:17) and thus He is the Saviour of all men John 4:42 but especially if those that believe 1Tim.4:10
Thus all men were chosen. And because Christ died for all men, all men were justified... But not all men are ultimately saved because not all men believe.
GOD KNOWS THE CHOSEN/ELECT BY NAME: The Apostle John disagrees with "Jesus does not know specifically who are His own" free-willians when he wrote "only those whose names are written" "in the book of life from the foundation of the world" in "written in the book of life from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 17:8) and "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27) thus God knows the names of the individuals that are God's from the foundation of the world, so there is no surprise for God which persons are elect.
 

Kermos

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"The priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud, for the glory of YHWH filled the house of God" (2 Chronicles 5:14)

"I am YHWH, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images." (Isaiah 42:8)

"Give glory to YHWH your God, before He brings darkness and before your feet stumble on the dusky mountains, and while you are hoping for light He makes it into deep darkness, [and] turns [it] into gloom" (Jeremiah 13:16).

"Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light" (Matthew 17:1-2).

"Behold, a voice out of the cloud said, 'This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!'" (Matthew 17:5).

"you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

"I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19)

"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other" (Matthew 24:30-31).

God saves by God's grace for God's glory! Praise the Lord Jesus!