Is our understanding of Gen 12:1 correct?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,524
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Smell a motive here...what are you attempting to prove? What is the end game? To do away with the promise? The creation account of “let there be light” can be seen as more than the physical creation but also “let there be Light” as the earth delivered out of the bondage of corruption unto the Liberty of the Sons of God, the children of promise...darkness overcome by light. why not just come out with what you are proposing or searching for a confirmation on? “then for Gen_12:1 & 7 to be applicable still, then god has had to have said, "and go to an earth that I will show you."” ...you don’t think God showed them the New thing He would do? What would be the inheritance of the Sons of God if not the New Creation. “Land” “earth” ...even “wilderness” you can not stick in a box to confine it as all is made barren until every high and lifted thing comes under subjection to God and the obedience of Christ. Acts 7:48-49 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, [49] Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

You have make this thread more complicated than is necessary. In Gen_12:1 & 7 it is my belief that Gen_12:1 should read: -

Gen_12:1: - 12:1 Now the Lord had said to Abram:
"Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father's house,
To a land/an earth that I will show you. "
and also Gen_12_7 should read: -

Gen_12:7: - 7 Then the Lord appeared to Abram and said, "To your descendants I will give this land/earth." And there he built an altar to the Lord, who had appeared to him.​

This is no way does away with God's Promise to Abraham, but tells us that God has a Plan for the salvation of the whole earth and that in the distant future from Abraham, that Abraham and his descendants would receive their inheritance of the earth. Christians are also a part of this receiving of the same inheritance as we too are grafted into Abraham's descendants.

How God intends to achieve this, is the rest of the biblical story in the scriptures.

If as Stephan states in Acts_7, Abraham received no possession within the Land to rest his foot upon, then God certainly did not promise Abraham "land" in Genesis_12:1 but rather "to an earth that God will show him."

Now you can claim falsely that you know what my purposes are, but you have demonstrated that you have little regard to the accuracy of the translation that we call our scriptures and want to continue the confusion that our translations have introduced into our scriptures.

Shalom
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,524
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
The OP is simply trying to claim ascendancy over Christ's Church, which it is Christ's Church as God's true Israel that is to inherit the promised lands with Abraham, as Apostle Paul showed in Galatians 3...

Gal 3:6-9
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, 'In thee shall all nations be blessed.'
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
KJV


Christ's Church is blessed with faithful Abraham, and are deemed as "the children of Abraham." It goes back to what Paul taught in Romans 9 that not all who are born of the seed of Israel are true Israel, but those who have believed in the Promise (Gospel) are counted for the seed. That means the idea of a spiritual Israel unto God. That is what Christ's Church is, and inherits with Abraham. Paul covers that same concept in Galatians 3.

Gal 3:13-14
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, 'Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree':
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
KJV


In Romans 8:9, Paul taught that if any man doesn't have the Spirit of Christ, then he is none of His. That is an even greater pointer that to inherit the promised land, one MUST have "the Spirit of Christ". It means literally... one MUST believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ.

Gal 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

KJV

There's that same idea Apostle Paul taught in Romans 9 about those in the Promise are 'counted' for the seed.

So then, would not Abraham's children inherit with him? Yes, of course they do. All others will be cut off.

So really, debates over whether the earth, or just a specific area of land is meant in Genesis 12 isn't the real point. It's just a mask, as Jay has tried to push this inheritance to Jews only idea in other of his posts.

Davy, it is your usual putdown of people who either disagree with your posts or you disagree with their posts in your need to feel important.

If you had taken your time to read my posts, nowhere will you find that I an claiming that the inheritance of the earth is only for the Jews, but rather it is for all who are grafted into the true descendants of Abraham and that is conditional on having a belief in Jesus Christ.

It seems that you have a hatred for Jews in general.

Your post is based on some truths, but the main point of your post is the lies that you wrap around those truths.

Shalom
 

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,394
31,447
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
@Jay Ross
Consider that planet Earth as a whole is not involved. It is the people, you and me, that are a little bit of dirt from that planetary soil quickened today. The dust of the ground equals the Land promised equals the Earth to be inherited:

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Jesus came to make us inhabitable for Him. He brought Life more abundantly [John 10:10] so that He would have a place to lay His Head. Jesus is the Head and we, if we take on Life, are to be the Body, on which the Head is to rest.

"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit." I Cor 15:45

"For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church [Body]: and he is the saviour of the body." Eph 5:23

"And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Matt 8:20

"Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;" Psalm 91:9

"For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.
This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it." Psalm 132:13-14


"In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." Eph 2:21-22
 

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,581
7,857
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is no way does away with God's Promise to Abraham, but tells us that God has a Plan for the salvation of the whole earth and that in the distant future from Abraham, that Abraham and his descendants would receive their inheritance of the earth. Christians are also a part of this receiving of the same inheritance as we too are grafted into Abraham's descendants.

Ok. Agree then. I’m sorry I confused your thread.
 

charity

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2017
3,234
3,192
113
75
UK
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Gen_1:1
View attachment 7150
Gen_12:1
View attachment 7151

If you consider the two interlinear passages above, "haa'aarets" in both should have the same meaning of the "earth" but the translators looked to a short time span for the solution of Gen_12:1 and decided that because Abraham went down to the land of Canaan, then God must have meant that He was going to give Abraham a land that He would show him. However, God was making a long term promising to give to Abraham the "earth," over 5,000 years into the future from where He entered into the Abrahamic Covenant with Abraham. Dan_7:27 certainly confirms this.

Shalom
'Now the LORD had said unto Abram,
Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred,
and from thy father's house,
unto a land that I will shew thee: ... '

(Gen 12:1)

'And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said,
Unto thy seed will I give this land:
and there builded he an altar unto the LORD,
Who appeared unto him.'

(Gen 12:7)

Hello @Jay Ross,

Thank you for responding.

* With reference to Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 12:1, and the use of the Hebrew word, 'haa'aarets' (Strongs No: H776): which is translated both 'earth' and 'land' as well as - (country, earth, field, ground, nations, way, wilderness, & world). It is therefore the context which must determine it's interpretation. In Genesis 1:1 it is obvious that it is the whole of the created earth which is in view, but in Genesis 12:1, it is a specific portion of land which is being referred to.

'And the kingdom and dominion,
and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven,
shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High,
whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
and all dominions shall serve and obey him'
:

* You refer to Daniel 7:27 (above), as a proof text, to substantiate what you said in your last sentence, namely (quote)
[' ... God was making a long term promise to give to Abraham the "earth," over 5,000 years into the future from where He entered into the Abrahamic Covenant with Abraham.' ] - However, It is 'The Kingdom of The Most High' (an everlasting kingdom) which will be given to the People of the saints of the Most High (redeemed Israel). Not the earth (or world) but that portion of the earth which The Kingdom of the Most High will occupy, and all dominions shall serve and obey - 'The Most High'.

'But the saints of the most High (God's People Israel) shall take the kingdom,
and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.'
(Daniel 7:18)

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris


 
Last edited:

Waiting on him

Well-Known Member
Dec 21, 2018
11,674
6,096
113
56
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You just went backwards 4000 years, leaving out every fulfillment of the foreshadowing of the actual promised land, including the new heaven and new earth, the earth destroyed with fervent heat and with fire, a temple made without hands, and Christ's return, "that where he is, we might be also."

Where are you going with this?
It’s like he’s saying the lord delayeth his coming?
 

charity

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2017
3,234
3,192
113
75
UK
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Israel is given the promise of the land, which is where her national existence is, which is the area of Canaan. As a the nation of God she will inherit also the earth as she will be the nation from where Christ will rule in the Millennium.

Stranger
'In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram,
saying, "Unto thy seed have I given this land,
from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.'

(Genesis 15:18-21)

Hello @Stranger,

The area of land promised was much greater than that of Canaan though wasn't it? They never fully occupied all that was promised to them. That awaits a future day.

1361419520_mideast_map.jpg


5476644-2325712756-Promi.jpg


In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,696
5,575
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
ScottA, I was going to leave you in your usual stew of misunderstanding.

Gen_12:1 & 7 is all about Abraham and his descendants inheriting the Earth that he, God, would show them. There is no mention of the Promised Land in Genesis until chapter 15.

God in Gen_13:14-17 gives an undertaking that he will give the land where Abraham has walked as a possession for a period of time which has a time limit set to Abraham's descendants, but nowhere in this passage does God say that he will give any of this land to Abraham.

Gen_12:1 has been wrongly translated by changing the meaning of hā·’ā·reṣ from "earth" which is the way it has been translated around 67 time in Gen_1-11, but in Genesis_12:1 hā·’ā·reṣ is now consistently translated as "land" in the rest of the OT, with an occasional earth thrown in here and there. The Promised land has, by the time they gain possession of it, become an idol that the Israelites also worshipped. This focusing on the "land" has skewered the translations away from their intended messages.

Shalom
Well...thanks for first throwing me into a pit. Very prophetic of you.

But do tell. What do you see as the "intended messages?"
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,696
5,575
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It’s like he’s saying the lord delayeth his coming?
Well, I am not sure, and am waiting to hear.

But it appeared as if he was suggesting an old earth fulfillment was foretold. Thus, my question. It is true that there was a physical fulfillment in the land (in the world), but the greater foreshadowing is spiritual and of the new heavens and new earth.
 

charity

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2017
3,234
3,192
113
75
UK
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
'Blessed are the meek:
for they shall inherit the earth.'

(Mat 5:5)

'But the meek shall inherit the earth;
and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.'

(Psa 37:11)

Hello @Jay Ross,

The Hebrew and Greek words translated 'earth' in the verses above (H776 and G1093), as I said earlier, are translated in many different ways, as the concordance reveals, but within the context of both of the references above, it is 'the land' which is being referred to. In Psalm 37, verses 3, 29 & 34 make this clear:-

(Psa 37:3) Trust in the LORD, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.
(Psa 37:29) The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.
(Psa 37:34) Wait on the LORD, and keep His way, and He shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.

* The Lord Jesus Christ, in His use of the same words would have had no other interpretation but that of David, who wrote this psalm, for it relates to the true David, the Messiah, which is Christ Himself, Who quotes David's words.

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris


 
Last edited:

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,524
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Hello @Jay Ross,

Thank you for responding. With reference to Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 12:1, and the use of the Hebrew word, 'haa'aarets' (Strongs No: H776): which is translated both 'earth' and 'land'. As you can imagine, it has a wide usage in Scripture, but is translated in both ways on many occasions, and it is therefore the context which must determine it's interpretation. In Genesis 1:1 it is obvious that it is the whole earth which is in view, but in Genesis 12:1, it is a specific portion of land which is being referred to.

'And the kingdom and dominion,
and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven,
shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High,
whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
and all dominions shall serve and obey him'
:

* You refer to Daniel 7:27 (above), as a proof text, to substantiate what you said in your last sentence, namely (quote)
[' ... God was making a long term promise to give to Abraham the "earth," over 5,000 years into the future from where He entered into the Abrahamic Covenant with Abraham.' ] - However, It is 'The Kingdom of The Most High' (an everlasting kingdom) which will be given to the People of the saints of the Most High (redeemed Israel). Not the earth (or world) but that portion of the earth which The Kingdom of the Most High will occupy, and all dominions shall serve and obey - 'The Most High'.

'But the saints of the most High (God's People Israel) shall take the kingdom,
and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.'
(Daniel 7:18)

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

If as you say, the context of Gen_12:1 & 7 is land, then why would the Lord then set out the specific area of the earth to give to Abraham's descendants in Gen_13:14-17 and in the Hebrew text not include Abraham in the promise of giving him land. Stephan in Acts_7 acknowledged that Abraham was not given even a small portion on which to set his feet in the Promised land.

Now if Abraham had no portion in the Land of Canaan, then in Gen_12:1 God did not take Abraham to a "land" that He would show him but rather, God undertook to take Abraham to an Earth that He would show him. Then in Gen_12:7 God said that He would give the earth to Abraham's descendants.

The possession of the "Promise Land" did not occur until God Brought Israel across the Jordan River some 680 years later, and then that possession of the promised land was only for a period of time of around 1450 years when in 70 AD God caused the nation of Israel to be scattered to the four corners of the earth because of their continual idolatrous iniquities being visited upon their children and their children's children in the third and the fourth {age}.

Jewish scholarship believes that God gave them the Promised land for all times, but the scriptures tell us a very different story.

Shalom
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,524
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Hello @Jay Ross,

The Hebrew and Greek words translated 'earth' in the verses above (H776 and G1093), as I said earlier, are translated in many different ways, as the concordance reveals, but within the context of both of the references above, it is 'the land' which is being referred to. In Psalm 37, verses 3, 29 & 34 make this clear:-

(Psa 37:3) Trust in the LORD, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.
(Psa 37:29) The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.
(Psa 37:34) Wait on the LORD, and keep His way, and He shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.

* The Lord Jesus Christ, in His use of the same words would have had no other interpretation but that of David, who wrote this psalm, for it relates to the true David, the Messiah, which is Christ Himself, Who quotes David's words.

In the three verses you referenced from PS_37 each of them should read "earth" and not "land" as the translators are suggesting.

The "land" has no longer been applicable since 70 AD.
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,524
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Well...thanks for first throwing me into a pit. Very prophetic of you.

But do tell. What do you see as the "intended messages?"

That you too can be redeemed through the salvation covenant.

Shalom
 

charity

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2017
3,234
3,192
113
75
UK
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
If as you say, the context of Gen.12:1 & 7 is land, then why would the Lord then set out the specific area of the earth to give to Abraham's descendants in Gen.13:14-17 and in the Hebrew text not include Abraham in the promise of giving him land. Stephan in Acts_7 acknowledged that Abraham was not given even a small portion on which to set his feet in the Promised land.
'Now the LORD had said unto Abram,
"Get thee out of thy country,
and from thy kindred,
and from thy father's house,
unto a land
(H776) that I will shew thee ...:"'
(Gen 12:1)

'And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said,
"Unto thy seed will I give
this land: (H776)
and there builded he an altar unto the LORD,
Who appeared unto him.'

(Gen 12:7)

'And the LORD said unto Abram,
after that Lot was separated from him,
"Lift up now thine eyes,
and look from the place where thou art
northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
For all the land which thou seest,
to thee will I give it,
and to thy seed for ever.
And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth:
so that if a man can number the dust of the earth,
then shall thy seed also be numbered.
Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it;
for I will give it unto thee.'

(Gen 13:14-17)

'And He (God) gave him (Abraham) none inheritance in it,
no, not so much as to set his foot on:
yet He promised that He would give it to him for a possession,
and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.'

(Act 7:5)

'By faith he (Abraham) sojourned in the land of promise,
as in a strange country,
dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob,
the heirs with him of the same promise:
For he looked for a city which hath foundations,
whose builder and maker is God.'

(Heb 11:9-10)

'And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.'

(Heb 11:39-40)

'And I say unto you,
That many shall come from the east and west,
and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob,
in the kingdom of heaven.
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness:
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

(Mat 8:11-12)

* No, Abraham though given the promise of the land, along with his offspring, died never having received the promise.

Jay Ross:-
Now if Abraham had no portion in the Land of Canaan, then in Gen_12:1 God did not take Abraham to a "land" that He would show him but rather, God undertook to take Abraham to an Earth that He would show him. Then in Gen_12:7 God said that He would give the earth to Abraham's descendants.

The possession of the "Promise Land" did not occur until God Brought Israel across the Jordan River some 680 years later, and then that possession of the promised land was only for a period of time of around 1450 years when in 70 AD God caused the nation of Israel to be scattered to the four corners of the earth because of their continual idolatrous iniquities being visited upon their children and their children's children in the third and the fourth {age}.

Jewish scholarship believes that God gave them the Promised land for all times, but the scriptures tell us a very different story.

Shalom
* I cannot accept your thinking on this, Jay.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,524
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I cannot accept your thinking on this, Jay.

Chris, everybody has to decide for themselves the truth of the matter. It seems that we will have to agree to disagree with each other.

It still does not change the validity of what I am presenting.

Shalom
 

charity

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2017
3,234
3,192
113
75
UK
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Chris, everybody has to decide for themselves the truth of the matter. It seems that we will have to agree to disagree with each other.

It still does not change the validity of what I am presenting.

Shalom
Hello @Jay Ross,

When the Lord uses such words as, 'for ever', in relation to Israel and God's promise to them concerning the land: surely your claim intimates that God is lying.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
Last edited:

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,524
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Hello @Jay Ross,

When the Lord uses such words as, 'for ever', in relation to Israel and God's promise to them concerning the land: surely your claim intimates that God is lying.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Surely, when God uses H:5769, He has set a period of time in place that defines the length of time that the promise land will be in the possession of the Israelites. As such, I have not in any way suggested that God is lying.

Again I suggest that we agree to disagree, and accept that your argument has not changed my understanding of what is found in Gen_12:1 & 7.