All the ELECT please stand up

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Kermos

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Woe to human agency adherents because you imagine that you chose God thus you are born of the flesh not of the Spirit of God (John 1:12-13, John 3:3-5, John 15:16)!

Prior posted 'woe to you free willers' (in this thread)

The Word of God, quoted in the following links to posts in this thread, reveals freewill is treacherously rebellious and a damnable lie.

These posts of this thread remain true, accurate, legitimate, legal, and Godly:

- The Righteous Sovereignty Of God Post

- The Audience Of Lord Jesus For John 14:16 And John 15:16 Are All Dicsiples In All Time Post

- Matthias And Joseph In Exhibit 7 With The Lord Jesus And The Apostles "All the Time" Post

- The Logic Statement (IF/THEN) Eliminating Any Question Of The Audience For The Supper Recorded In John Chapters 13-17 Being All Disciples In All Time Post

- (1) The Twelve mentioned in Matthew 26:20 et. al. does not indicate "only" the twelve, (2) Lord Jesus indicates in John 17:20 that the content of John chapters 13-17 applies to all His disciples of all time, and (3) the "you" in John 14:16 and the "you" in John 15:16 refer to all the disciples of Jesus in all time because of the about 120 recorded in Acts 1:15 and Acts 2:1-4 receiving the Holy Spirit as well as the Gentiles at Cornelius' place recorded in Acts 10:44 receiving the Holy Spirit Post

- The Repentance Is From God Not Conjured Up In Man By Man Post

- The Biblical Definition of Disciple Includes More People Than The 12 Apostles Post

- The Audience, Salvation, And 'I chose you' Words of Lord Jesus In John 15:16 and John 15:19 Post

- The God Chooses/Elects Unto Salvation Post

- Lord Jesus Describes Part Of His Essence/Character - God Alone Chooses In Salvation Doctrine Post

- The Genesis 1:31, Genesis 2:16-17, and Joshua 24:15 Reveal The Sovereignty Of God In Man's Salvation Post

- Addendum to Genesis 1:31, Genesis 2:16-17 Post Explaining Absence Of Choose Conjugate As Well As IF/THEN Application In Genesis 1-3 Post

- 1 Timothy 2:4 Exposited Truthfully That The Work Is Not Of Man Rather The Work Is Of God Post

- Demonstrating "Whole World" Indicates Multiple Meanings Regarding People In First John Where Two Starkly Differing Uses Of "World" Occur (1 John 2:2 and 1 John 5:19) Post

- The Further Use Of "World" Exposited Truthfully Demonstrating That Belief/Faith In A Believer Is A Work of God - John 3:16 and John 6:29 and John 15:16 Post

- The Intrinsic Quality of Christ Jesus includes God Choosing People for Salvation Not Vice Versa Post

- The Blessed Assurance of True Godly Worship and Love Post

- The Blood of Christ Being The Wedding Garment in Matthew 22:1-14 Post

- Both the promise of the Holy Spirit and the declaration by Lord Jesus that God chooses people not people choosing God occur in the self-same supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17 Post

Free-Will Doctrinal Error Amplified By Faulty English Translations And Free-Willian Lust For Glory In Salvation Exposed:

+ "@Taken: Do Not Be Taken Away In Free-will Error By Faulty English Translations (Includes Faulty Change Covenant To Agreement Rebuttal) Post

+ @GodsGrace: List of Lies About History Post

+ @GodsGrace: Illegally Try To Shoehorn 'Choose' Into John 3:16 Post

+ @GodsGrace: The Majesty of God in Matthew 6:13 - God leads, God delivers; God's Power Forever, God's Glory Forever Post

+ @CNKW3: Beholding Greek of 1 Peter 1:21-22 to see "God the souls of you having-purified in the obedience of-the truth" NOT people purifying themselves RATHER God purifying people Post

+ @CNKW3: Vessels Of Mercy Obey God In God's Power Versus Vessels Of Destruction Deny God's Word In Their Own Sin Post

+ @CNKW3: Persists In Denial Of The Word Of God By CNKW3 Trying To Make The Apostle Peter Say Different Than Lord Jesus Post

+ @CNKW3: More About Phrases About God's Control Sandwiching The Free-will Illusion Phrase Of The English Mistranslations of 1 Peter 1:22 Post

+ @CNKW3: More About Verses About The Promise Of The Holy Spirit To All Believers In All Time Presented By Lord Jesus At The Supper Recorded In John Chapters 13-17 With The Implications Of Jesus Saying 'You' In John 15:16 Post

+ @CNKW3: More Proof That The Word 'IF' Does Not Denote Ability Post

+ @CNKW3: Obey Defined Is 'To Fulfill The Command' - There Is No 'Choice' In The Definition With Scriptural Support For 'Believe' Not 'Choose To Believe' Post

+ @Enoch111: Fails to Understand 'Receive' Definition While Fails To Understand Acts 2 While Failing To Understand John 3:16 Post

Returning to more of the Word of God, quoted in the following links, revealing freewill devotee's treachery and rebellion.

- God Blesses Us With Biblical History, And Free Willians/Pelagians/Armenians Fail To Understand History Post

- A Command Does Not Convey Ability To Carry Out The Command Post

- Squelching the Armenian Argument Of 'God specifically chooses to send some persons to hell' Post

- The Word of God Eliminates WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS Post

- The Apostle Peter Reiterates The Promise Of The Holy Spirit For All Believers In All Time (Acts 2:38-39 and Acts 2:18) That Lord Jesus Gave (John 15:26) Post

- All NT Letters Are To Believers So The Holy Spirit Gives Perspective In Hebrews 2:9 And "whosoever" Is Absent From Revelation 22:17

- We Believers Are Adopted In (Ephesians 1:5), Grafted In (Romans 11:17), Birthed In To The Kingdom Of God (John 3:3, John 3:5)

God saves by God's grace for God's glory! Praise the Lord Jesus!
 

Kermos

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So salvation comes BEFORE obedience?? I noticed you didn’t post any scripture to support that.
...snip
No, CNKW3, obedience is fruit of the Holy Spirit, for we have the Apostle Peter's writing of "obeying the truth through the Spirit" (1 Peter 1:22).

I don't know if Naomi25 intends to respond to you.

Nonetheless, the 1 Peter 1:22 passage can be found in the GOD PURIFIES SOULS section of this richly scriptural post illuminating the exclusive sovereignty of God in man's salvation post - the passage properly divided that you so very hastily toss out the window.

So, your deceptive theology remains on the shifting sand for you lawlessly do not receive the words of Lord Jesus (Matthew 7:21-28) for we have this heavily Word of God based fruit explained post, and how all good that a believer does is Fruit of the Spirit of God

The Word of God is solid Rock, and the Word of God says "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5)!

THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS. LORD JESUS SPEAKS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME BECAUSE HE ALSO SAID "I DO NOT ASK ON BEHALF OF THESE ALONE, BUT FOR THOSE ALSO WHO BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD" (JOHN 17:20)! ALL THESE WORDS OF JESUS ARE AT THE SAME SUPPER! ALL GLORY IS GOD'S! WITH MAN, SALVATION IS IMPOSSIBLE (MATTHEW 19:25-26)! ALL GLORY IN THE SALVATION OF MAN IS GOD'S (JOHN 15:5, ISAIAH 42:8)!
 

Naomi25

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You posted gal 2:16 and in your translation it says....we are not justified by the law but by faith IN Christ. People use this to preach that all you have to do is have “faith/belief IN Christ.
My point was that the proper translation teaches more than that. It is written in the possessive form which means it is “the faith” that belongs to Christ. We are not justified by the law (of Moses) but by “the faith (of Christ).
His teaching, his doctrine, his law.
The one faith of Eph 4,
the system of faith first preached on Pentecost,
the gospel of Jesus Christ which is to be obeyed, acts 6:7; rom 1:5; 2 thes 1:8
“the faith” that we are to contend for Ju 3.
“The faith” that Paul once persecuted but now preaches. Gal 1:23
In 2 Cor 13:5 when Paul says...examine yourselves to see whether you be in “the faith”
This is the same as John telling us we must abide in the doctrine of Christ. To be “in the faith” or to “abide in the doctrine of Christ” are the same.
We are NOT justified by some mental acceptance that Jesus is the son of God, it is through obedience to “the faith” which includes repentance and baptism.
I understand you are trying to stress the importance of not just sitting on your butt with a simple 'assent' that Jesus is, perhaps, who he said he was. After all, we all know that even the demons 'believe'.
However you are teetering, and I believe crossing into, that place where initial salvation becomes more than a gift of Gods grace and mercy alone, which is just unbiblical teaching.

Because here's the thing; when the bible clearly says that salvation is a gift of Gods grace; that faith to believe; putting my trust in Christ alone is from God's mercy and goodness and cannot be of my own doing lest I boast, then I can easily without any fear of contradiction, look at the other passages that speak of walking in my salvation in obedience, as an outcome of salvation, not a requirement to achieve it.
However, if, like you say, salvation comes from obedience, how can I look at all those passages that speak of my salvation coming from God alone? How do I make sense of them, when I could then point at my own obedience and say "well, don't I have some small part to play in it?"

My point being, I think that rather than focusing on what might have been the 'true intent' behind one word (faith), which is debatable anyway, you might want to focus on those passages that are quite clear; salvation is from God alone...its a gift, that none may boast. And if it is a gift, it cannot, in any way, be by our effort...and that includes our obedience. Obedience comes after initial salvation...it comes in response to salvation.

It can be physically proven. All those in the NT described as elect ALL did the exact same thing. It is called....”a common salvation”. They all Heard believed repented and were baptized in water. Every single one of them. Acts 2, 3, 8, 9, 10, 16, 18, 19 There is not one case of individuals being described as elect who had never obeyed the gospel. You’re saying that to be one of the elect you don’t have to do anything. If so, then give me one example of that taking place. A person called elect who had never believed and been baptized.
Can you give me verses that show where all the Disciples were baptised in water? I believe that some were baptised for forgiveness of sins by John the Baptist, but they could have hardly been baptised 'in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit' if the Son or the active work of the Spirit had not yet appeared, could they? So, if the Disciples were not water baptised in general, or not baptised as Christ demaned them to be, "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit", are you then saying that they were not elect? That they, then, did not 'obey the gospel'...they who preached the gospel?
Isn't it more likely that the baptism they exiperienced was the one that John the Baptist spoke of when he told them that Jesus would "baptist with Spirit and Fire?" This happened at Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit fell upon them. And this, by anyones reasoning, would be a moment of salvation and purely of God's will and grace.

Make up your mind....do you want me to deal with your passages or not?
I dealt with every verse you posted. Now you don’t like the way in which I did it. I did not just say.....you are out of context but I broke it down how and why you took it out of context. For instance...
You posted Eph 1:13. Question?
Did Paul seal those in Ephesus with the HS? Yes or no?
If so, why are you applying that passage to us today? Those in Ephesus knew and could verify that they had been sealed. You can’t.

Ug! Don't you hate it when you're stupid (me, that is, not you!)? I've just realised I've missed a whole post of yours. Which I imagine is what is causing this confusion. I most humbly apologise. Let me go back and read it and deal with it now...
:rolleyes: yay me...multi-tasking gone awry...
 

Naomi25

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Without faith we are not saved. That is correct. Heb 11:6. Without faith it is impossible to please God.
But at what point is a person saved?
It is at the point your sins are removed!

NOBODY can be saved and still be in their sins. Salvation IS NOT at the point a person mentally accepts Jesus as the son of God. I challenge you to show me (prove to me) that your sins are removed at the point of mental acceptance. Prove it. The Bible is clear on this subject.

I think perhaps, while your conclusions are ultimately good, you are, in fact, leading the conversation in a somewhat faulty way in order to reach a foregone conclusion. Let me explain:
Are our sins removed from us once we are saved? Yes, they are. That is the point of substitutionary atonement - what Jesus did for us on the cross; his death for ours (2 Cor 5:21).

And while trying to force our hand with verses linking the lack of sin with the moment of salvation, which is a necessary outcome, you forget, or would have us forget, the many verses that do, in fact, link salvation with belief, faith and trust.

Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” -Acts 16:30–31

Paul does not say 'be baptised' or 'be forgiven of your sins'. Indeed, when we put our faith, our love and trust in Christ, these other things come naturally.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. -John 3:16

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, -John 11:25

There are also many other verses that speak of belief or faith in Christ...to many to just dismiss. Am I saying that this just means assent? No...we know that even the demons 'believe'. Clearly the belief is of the sort that equals a loving trust. The sort that affirms Jesus being the Christ, who came in the flesh and die for our sins. The sort that recognizes our need to humble ourselves to our great and awesome God and walk in humility before him, out of love and amazement of what he has done for us. But the verses are there...as I said, too many to simply dismiss them.

Once again you post something and don’t even care to provide any background information. Do you even know where the account of the conversion of the Ephesians are? Do you care? When you read the account you’ll find that it was Paul who “sealed” them with the Spirit by the laying on of hands. This does not happen to us today. This is what he was referring to. Something you would know if you cared to study instead of beating me down and calling my post ridiculous.
Ah...excuse me while I splutter a little. This is a thread about the elect. Right? Those 'chosen' by God, apparently...and you're chastising me for quoting Ephesians Chapter 1? As it goes into depths of those 'predestined' by God before the foundation of the world?
And while it is incredibly unkind to charge me 'uncaring' of the details, you do so at the expense of the actual point of the situation.
That being; it did not particularly matter if the Holy Spirit came upon them when Paul or someone else 'laid hands' upon them - the scripture is still quite clear. It WAS the Holy Spirit that came upon them, and it did so "because it was promised as guarantee of their inheritance." What promised inheritance was Paul talking about? The one he had just mentioned of course, the one "predestined before the forming of the world" to them.
And when did they receive the Holy Spirit? This absolute seal of guarantee? When they heard the truth and believed.
I'm sorry, but it doesn't matter who spoke this truth to them, or who laid hands on them. The facts of the matter is that they heard, they believed and they were saved. There are no other details there that suggest anything else or demand anything else.


God didn’t choose specific individuals. God chose those who answered the call. Read the next verse. It says they were “called by the gospel”. Those who are obedient to the gospel are those who are the elect. Mk 16:15,16
Preach the gospel to every creature, he that believes and is baptized shall be saved.
Why preach the gospel to every creature if God had already chosen some to be lost??

Okay...2 problems. First, 'the gospel' is the good news, best summed up by John 3:16. Or Rom 3:22-25, or 2 Cor 5:21, or Rom 1:16. Or numerous other passages before Mark 16.
And the reason I say that is problem no.2: Mark 16:9-20 is not included in some of the earliest manuscripts. And while I'm not a scholar and make no claim to be, I'd be hesitant to be the stamp of biblical authority on something that perhaps may not come from God. In other words...I'd want to be darn sure the teaching in that portion of scripture could be backed up very strongly in other portions of scripture that were sure. And in this case....I'm not sure. So...

The book of Titus speaks of hope 3 times and every time he is dealing with eternal life. Read it. This is the hope Christians have...to be changed into our glorious eternal body for eternity. Nobody knows what that will look like but we have faith and assurance based on facts. Christ was raised and the elect have been promised the same.
Again, I fail to see your point. Hope in eternal life is still hope: something longed for, something trusted in but not seen. That was my point and I think it stands.


You skipped verses 3 and 4? Hahahah. You are sooo typical. You’ll TRY to prove your point, with deception, in hopes that nobody reads the other verses around your scriptures. You are a “Christian” cliche. You do exactly what everybody else does. You are dishonest with the scriptures God has given us.
I’ll post them for you.
we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
Paul, in this context, explains how hope comes through experience. It is not some blind hope in something we can’t trust. The Christian hope is based on facts, verifiable, provable facts.
Oh, my goodness. To begin with, a wonderful show of maturity there, congratulations.
Also, I'm sorry. Sorry for you, really. Let me post that entire section, as you somehow feel I was skipping out of it, and you are right in one thing: it is glorious:

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. -Romans 5:1–5

I'm sorry for you because you see in this electrifying and life altering passage the need to gain hope only through 'experience'. Salvation only through 'obedience'.

When I posted only verses 2 and 5 it was because it was only they that had bearing on what we were discussing. It was not because I was being dishonest or attempting to decieve you. Why would I be bothered? The scriptures can clearly speak for themselves.
Since WE HAVE already BEEN justified BY FAITH, we HAVE PEACE with God through Jesus. Through him we HAVE OBTAINED access BY FAITH into his grace, which we stand and REJOICE IN HOPE.

We already have hope, a wonderful hope that comes from KNOWING we are saved by grace in Christ.
What then, is the hope that it speaks of afterwards? Ah...it is another sort of hope. Related, of course, because they both hinge on Jesus. When we live in the joy and hope of salvation in him, we can rejoice in life sufferings. Why? Because suffering produces endurance, endurance, character and character brings hope, which circles us all the way back around to Jesus. So, we begin with Jesus, and end with Jesus. He is our all in all. We live him and breath him in all our doings in life.

So, no...I am not discounting those other verses. And they do not take away from what I claim the other 2 verses say.
 

Naomi25

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AGAIN, the context is important. Read verse 23....He is talking about the life to come. The glorious body we’ll receive when Christ returns. This is no different then what you posted above. It proves nothing.

Not true. The whole passage is speaking about the glorification of both the children of God and the earth as well. This is a major promise of God's to us, a longing of the soul that scripture teaches is normal. Romans 8:18 compares the sufferings of this time unworthy to be compared to what is coming. 19 says the creation itself groans for its own release and for ours as well. Paul talks in Corinthians about how if Christ's resurrection didn't happen, then all our longings for resurrection; all our hopes for that future, were just foolishness, and we were to be pitied.
Resurrection and renewal is a MAJOR theme for the Christian walk. In fact the link between justification, sanctification and glorification cannot be pulled apart.
So, I would say that you're picking at pieces. Hope, in the future promises of God to his children, are just as essential as any other promises he's ever made.

Again....can a person be saved and still be in there sins? NOOOO! This is what salvation is. Redemption from sin.

So, at what point does a person have their sins removed??? Please answer this very important and vital question. I don’t want your opinion either. The answer is a verifiable and provable one. One without ambiguity.
Please see my answer above.
Also...apparently you DO need me to give the verses that point out that obvious link between the 'salvation' in those 'elect' passages with salvation in 'salvation' passages. Sad day indeed.


In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, [14] who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. -Ephesians 1:13–14


For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. -Romans 1:1
6

They are generic. Not a one speaks of God specifically choosing you over me for salvation for no good reason, just because he wants to. He has already chosen people from the beginning of time. Allll those who will be obedient to the gospel plan he formulated before the world began. This is how he could know who the elect are from the foundation of the world. Read your scripture below.
"For no good reason, just because he wants to".
Am I alone here...? You see that, right?
One, I'd say he does it because of love. But I'd also say as God, he jolly well gets to do it for whatever reason he wants to and call it 'good enough'. When you create your own universe, you can make up the rules you see fit. K?
And while I very much like the verses I put below and agree they are true, I'm not really seeing how God could 'not know who the elect are' from the foundation of the world if people somehow wobbled off the path. That's implying that something you or I might do is bigger than something God can or has decided or decreed. That he'd be going "drat....I HAD decided to call that person, but they've gone disobedient on me, so there goes that idea...'
Election is the idea that God, his plan his will is more powerful than our mistakes, our sin. It is in that way that we can neither boast in our salvation, nor mess it up. It just is. And once it is, then we praise, rejoice, marvel, worship, and walk in the good works he has prepared in advance.

How does God call? Through the gospel. 2 thes 2:13,14.
You are right. It is God who justifies and he does it through the gospel or “the faith”. The one faith of Ephesians 4. It is how Peter can say...we are born again through the word. 1 pet 1:23
All of this verifiable and provable.
Except the parts that contradict scripture. Grace is not by works. Its that simple. If it is, it is no longer grace. If you can find me a scripture that untangles that one...but, no. There is none. Grace must be a gift in its entirety. Because if not, we stuff it up again, even if it's just us patting ourselves on the back for a job well done.
 

Naomi25

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They are NOT out of context! You say they are but then provide no evidence. We are just to trust you.
I will help you out. Let’s look at 1 thes 5:21
In vs 20 it says...despise not prophesying.
To prophesy is to utter by divine inspiration so we today could be considered a prophet by preaching from the word of God.
In vs 21 he then says.....”PROVE ALL things, hold fast to that which is good.”
This is NOT just about examining oneself.
Let’s apply this principle......
For example- people teach that all you have to do is accept Jesus and pray for salvation and you are saved. It’s my duty to ask...where did you get That? Because it didn’t come from the Bible. There is not one person who ever “accepted Jesus and prayed for salvation”. You nor anybody else can “prove” that so I will not hold fast to that man made false doctrine.

So, you see, you should have properly read and examined the passages I gave you.
Well, just hold up a second now. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. In other words, its all very well and good for you to not trust me, but who's to say we can trust you?
You say that quoting scripture means we're prophets? Also all well and good, but as we have daily proof here, people can use whatever scripture they want to attempt to explain anything.
1 Thess 5:21 says to test everything. 1 John 4:1 says to "test the spirits" and Eph 5:10 tells us to try and discern what is pleasing to the Lord. My guess would be the correct dividing of his word.
You say that a person 'has never accepted Jesus and prayed for salvation'. That's a big claim...are you perhaps privy to every personal conversation and transaction between every person and God? You also say that just believing in Jesus for this salvation is not biblical...that it cannot be biblically proven. That's also a big claim. Considering ALL the bible verses that outright say "believe and be saved". Kind of staggering, really. Here's just a small smattering of them:

Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Romans 3:22 - the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:

Romans 10:9 - because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Galatians 2:16 - yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.


How do you do that unless you ask them to “prove” what they teach? I can’t believe you would ask ANYBODY to prove ANYTHING.?
When you look things up in the Bible you are looking for confirmation and proof of what is being taught.

You're making my brain hurt.
Let me try and get this straight. In your OP you said that you could not accept something unless you could see it 'physically proven', which I thought strange, given that Christianity is based largely on things we cannot see.

But after all this, all you actually mean, when you say "physically prove" is just "by scripture". Yeah? Because if so, you could have ratched down a notch or two any time someone used scripture...even if you disagreed with them over it.

not totally correct but I will give you this. If we want to know who the elect are then we get the information from the word of God. If we want to know how to remove sins, we get it from the word of God. If we want to know how to get “into Christ” we get it from the word of God and not Billy Graham or any other man who teaches their own man made doctrine.
That would include you too?
(sorry...couldn't quite resist!)

We don’t receive direct and personal messages from the HS today. That was done away with when the total revealed word of God was complete.
I don't believe we recieve *The Word* from the Holy Spirit anymore. Nothing authoritive. But the Holy Spirit is not unmoving today. I think, from experience and from what I read in the bible, that he still imparts different gifts and even messages to individuals. Nothing at all like what happened in the Apostolic time, just...needful things. I've had things like...a totally random bible passage pop into my head. One that I had no reason to be thinking of or to have it applied to my situation, but when I did...oh! It made such a difference! The teaching moment that humbled me. It could only have been the Spirit in that moment. It was for no one else, just me and my growth and walk.
No...he's still active in those he dwells within.

That’s right! You say you are one of the elect? Prove it through the word.
I have addressed every scripture you posted. Here they are...
Since I've just gone back and addressed that post that I missed, I think we can pass over those scriptures in general. But proof, you say. That I am one of the elect. That I have salvation in Christ Jesus?
Well, lets see, should I just give you various verses, or should I give you what I believe? Maybe both. I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who came to earth and live a sinless life and die in my place. I believe he rose from the grave victorious and ascended to heaven where he now interceeds at the Fathers right hand for me. And I believe he will come again for those he calls his own.
I believe all that, but along with mental acknowledgement comes an awakened heart to the truth of it all. Ezekiel referred to it as 'removing the heart of stone' and replacing it with one of flesh, one that not only recognized my sin and my need for a Saviour, but a love for Him.
I think that right there is probably the true test of faith. Does a person have love for Jesus Christ? Do they love the Father for what he has extended to us?

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. -John 3:16–18

But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God. -Galatians 4:4–7


It is a sad, cruel word where a child must perform to keep a father happy. Our heavenly Father is not like that, especially when the penalty has already been paid, allowing us to cry, 'Abba, Father!' With verses like this, and so many of the other ones demanding grace as a free gift, I'm not sure where you have left to turn.

I’ve given you the opportunity to show everyone how I did not address your passages. I listed them above and will study ANY of them that you wish to pursue. People can read my post and decide which of us is telling the truth.
I have also asked some very important questions. We will see if you are truly willing to engage in honest bible study or are you just trolling along like everybody else. I’m looking for someone with an honest and good heart willing to truly study the Bible. In order to do that you have to be willing to ask and answer questions honestly and not just spout your own opinionated bias. It needs to be by book, chapter and verse. I’ve yet to find it on here.
Yeah, fair call. I fully confess I totally missed that last post of yours. Sorry. I try and squeeze these posts in during a heap of other things and at times the get a little disordered. My bad.

However, just because I missed a post of yours does not mean I'm trolling. I've presented things with an open heart.
What I'd actually like from you is this: you seem fairly big on 'Proof'. And you also seem big on 'salvation via obedience' and 'salvation via sinlessness'. You keep demanding verses for our stance, which I'm fairly sure we've provided, whether or not you believe...that'll ultimately be up to you and God. So....how about it, then? Where are YOUR verses?

The book of Romans was written to who? Not one individual but the church
2 Cor was written to who? The church
Eph was written to who? The church
Gal was written to who? The church.
So, when God said...
Romans 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I'm. Not even sure where to start.
Who ELSE would the elect be but the Church? The Church is the body of Christ, who are made up of people who are saved. Ergo...the elect. And I'm positive that God did, indeed, foreknow them. Predestine them even.
And I know you'll be shocked and appalled when you learn that I find that Lydia's good manners still aren't enough to blow away ALL THE OTHER VERSES THAT SPEAK ABOUT SALVATION BEING A FREE GIFT!
 

Naomi25

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When I said.....you can’t demonstrate anything physically I was speaking to all those who I had previously had discussions with who were claiming they had gifts of the Spirit. So if you are one of them then you fall into this category. The category that says.....I’m one of the elect because I have “gifts” given by the HS. And all I was saying was that you can’t prove or demonstrate ANYTHING physically like they could in the first century. It’s not my fault if you come into this 2 months late and just assume things. Can’t blame that on me.
Hmmm. Fair enough. I would probably put myself in the category of saying that there ARE gifts of the Spirit. But like you I don't think a person should or could claim to be saved ONLY by displaying 'gifts' of the spirit. One can hardly know 'which spirits' gifts they might be displaying, can one?

But...perhaps maybe on a general conversation forum spell things out in a little more detail. People don't alway read every single thread, so can't possibly have been clued into that other line of reasoning. Maybe even just a little *check out this other thread for more detail* would help??
 

Naomi25

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So salvation comes BEFORE obedience?? I noticed you didn’t post any scripture to support that.
I asked you a question earlier that I knew you wouldn’t answer....
In acts 2, was the believing audience saved before or after their sins were remitted?
Another way to ask that is.....were the believers on Pentecost saved before or after obedience to the instructions given in acts 2:38?
I feel like I have posted SO MANY verses that support my position....
How about this...can YOU provide any scriptures that state obedience must come BEFORE salvation? That salvation will only be granted once a person does certain things. Perhaps some verses specifying which things need to be obeyed, and what level must be achieved. I'd also like some verses explaining how the verses you manage to find measure up against my verses; you know, the ones saying that salvation is a free gift. Because surely those verses would be in contradiction, and we know scripture is never that. So...some explaining verses too, please.

And as for Acts 2? I can answer very easily...they were saved before they were Baptized. Do you know why I can say that? Think about your average unsaved yoko out on the street right now. If you went and said to them, 'quick, come and be baptized or you won't be saved'...they'd laugh in your face and walk off. These days, you'd be lucky if that's all.
Those men...when the bible tells us that they were "cut to the heart"? That's the Holy Spirit; he's just replaced their hearts of stone with hearts of flesh and they've become aware of their sin and their need for Jesus. When Peter tells them they need Jesus, and they should be Baptised as well, do you think they waited until their heads popped back up from the water before they accepted Jesus as Messiah? I'd lay money that the answer is 'no'. They knew the truth before they managed to get anywhere near a drop of water.
Obedience comes from faith and love. But faith and love cannot be manufactured from obedience. Never has, never will.


Look, it's late here and I'm too tired to continue. I'll be away all tomorrow, so I probably won't be back for a bit. I'll try to get to the rest of this post then.
 

Kermos

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One doesn't need to quote scripture when contemplating the love of God. Anyone can lay back and think upon Calvary and be in awe at the grace and mercy of our Creator, share that with others like I did here, without quoting scripture. We can accurately contrmplate the meaning of love without quoting scripture.. Love is evidentially revealed through Calvary as self sacrificial I don't need to quote scripture to show that. We all know it. It is glaringly obvious to those of us here who know Christ. So is the love of God, in its purest sense, means self sacrifice, and He calls on is to follow in His steps, thus revealing love as the fulfilling of the law, how does that whole inherent nature of love harmonise with your concept of God not giving man any choice whether to accept or reject Him? Your idea of love amounts to spiritual rape.
The above does not contradict God's choice of us. Yes, He has chosen mankind and appointed them to be saved... That is why Christ died and took the sins of every man, the whole world, upon Himself. This all men are justified in Christ. But not all men are saved obviously, because not all men believe. And some believe but chose not to obey. Others believe but are not willing to forsake the world. We do have choices... Like the choice whether to sin or not. And our choices sometimes have eternal ramifications.
Love is a Fruit of the Spirit of Truth (Galatians 5:22), so a person must be born of the Holy Spirit to love (John 3:3) and understand love (1 Corinthians 13:1-13).

God is love (1 John 4:8), so this blessed gift of love by God is required for we believers to love God - to adore God - to worship God in Spirit and Truth (John 4:23).

Contemplating the love of Christ exressed at Calvary requires the Holy Spirit, yet you say that you chose Jesus apart from the Spirit of Christ ON YOUR OWN which directly contradicts Lord Jesus' words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) by which you deny the intrinsic quality of Jesus in man's salvation; moreover, a Holy Spirit filled believer does not deny God's Word, rather, we Holy Spirit filled believers rejoice in the love of God in thankfulness and praise of God!

The Word of God is necessary to understand God. One trying to understand God without the Word of God is to be left to one's own devices which leads to destruction such as false religions.

Since we have been discussing who God is and who man is, scripture is crucial!

A key point is that Lord Jesus declared His intrinsic characteristic of being in control with "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

But the Word of God does not stop there, brakelite, since King Jesus also said "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

So, a person that is not born again cannot see the Kingdom of God according to Jesus.

King Jesus reigns in the Kingdom of God.

A person not born again is incapable of seeing the true King of the Kingdom of God because the King is in the Kingdom of God.

A person cannot cause the person's own birth, and for seeing and entering the Kingdom of God requires the birth of the person in the Holy Spirit (John 3:3, John 3:5-8).

Based on the words of the King of the Kingdom of God, the King chooses citizens of the Kingdom of God for the King is the Way - and Truth and Life (John 14:6); moreover, based on the words of the King of the Kingdom of God, non-citizens of the Kingdom of God do not choose the King. This is based on the words of the King "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

It is an amazing and humbling thing that God would save any (Matthew 19:25-26) which is amazing love (John 3:16) for God is love (1 John 4:7-19)!

The Word of God reveals love, and you try to define love outside of the Word of God to accommodate your imaginary choice. Lord Jesus said "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13). Lord Jesus rescues us believers which is BLESSED LOVE that He chose us whom He saves, but you claim to choose Him against His words.

According to what I suspect is your theology, specifically that God created everybody - all humans in all time; therefore, extrapolating from your intellectual post, all those who do not choose Jesus were created by God, so they are subject to the wrath of God because they did not choose Jesus. What I suspect is your theology and your intellectualization within your post argue against each other. Some call that cognitive dissonance, but the next paragraph gives a scriptural meaning to it.

You attempt to break the Light since you claim to choose Jesus at some level which means your "choice" directly opposes the words of the Lord Jesus, the Light, "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), for the Light says "everyone who does evil hates the Light" (John 3:20), and it is evil to oppose the Word of God, the Light, who says "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

Your void of scripture post speaks volumes about your deceptive theology, brakelite.

God chooses people unto salvation (John 15:16) - not people choosing God (John 15:16). This intrinsic characteristic of the One True God that saves people by God's grace for God's glory is disagreeable in your sight (Joshua 24:15), so you have chosen a false god.

This current post addends this richly scriptural post illuminating the exclusive sovereignty of God in man's salvation post, and this fruit explained post, and how all good that a believer does is Fruit of the Spirit of God.
 
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CNKW3

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I understand you are trying to stress the importance of not just sitting on your butt with a simple 'assent' that Jesus is, perhaps, who he said he was. After all, we all know that even the demons 'believe'.
However you are teetering, and I believe crossing into, that place where initial salvation becomes more than a gift of Gods grace and mercy alone, which is just unbiblical teaching.
I am editing this one because I have now read all of your post. If you don’t feel like responding then no worries there either. Appreciate your time and effort. I will say I’m disappointed with what you said about acts 2. The text says baptism was “for remission of sins”. But you said no, and gave me your opinion. I have given and continue to give in the following paragraphs biblical evidence of exactly the point at which sins are forgiven and it’s never at the point of belief.

Nowhere does the Bible say......salvation is a gift of Gods grace and mercy ALONE. I would be happy to study those passages if you have them. God has warned us all through the ages to NOT add to or take away from his word. Adding the word “alone” is a huge problem in the Christian world today. Salvation is by nothing ALONE.

Because here's the thing; when the bible clearly says that salvation is a gift of Gods grace; that faith to believe; putting my trust in Christ alone is from God's mercy and goodness and cannot be of my own doing lest I boast, then I can easily without any fear of contradiction, look at the other passages that speak of walking in my salvation in obedience, as an outcome of salvation, not a requirement to achieve it.
However, if, like you say, salvation comes from obedience, how can I look at all those passages that speak of my salvation coming from God alone? How do I make sense of them, when I could then point at my own obedience and say "well, don't I have some small part to play in it?"
AGAIN...nowhere does the Bible say salvation comes through putting trust in Christ ALONE. To put ones trust in anybody is to do what they say. Hebrews says that Christ is the author of salvation to all them who OBEY him. Not just put their “trust” in him alone. I would be happy to study those passages as well.


My point being, I think that rather than focusing on what might have been the 'true intent' behind one word (faith), which is debatable anyway, you might want to focus on those passages that are quite clear; salvation is from God alone...its a gift, that none may boast. And if it is a gift, it cannot, in any way, be by our effort...and that includes our obedience. Obedience comes after initial salvation...it comes in response to salvation.
Then let’s focus on ALL the passages that tell us salvation is from God ALONE and salvation comes before obedience which also would include belief in Christ. Just please provide all those passages so we can review them.


Can you give me verses that show where all the Disciples were baptised in water? I believe that some were baptised for forgiveness of sins by John the Baptist, but they could have hardly been baptised 'in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit' if the Son or the active work of the Spirit had not yet appeared, could they?
We know that John the Baptist and jesus disciples baptized in water. And Christ commanded it in the great commission. Mt 28, Mk 16. We know it’s water because he commanded men to do it. Men can’t baptize in the Spirit. It was only Christ that did that.
In the first gospel sermon of all time in acts 2 they were commanded to be baptized in water. We know it was water for a couple of reasons..
1. Christ had just commanded them to do it just 10 days earlier.
2. When you look at Peter in acts 10 with Cornelius he said....can any man forbid water that they should not be baptized.
So yes acts 2 was in water, which covers acts 3 as well.
Acts 8 we know Phillip baptized in water. The Eunuch said....here’s water what hinders me from being baptized. We know Paul also baptized in water. That covers acts 9,16,18,19. The greatest chapter on baptism is Rom 6 and he describes it as a burial and a planting and resurrection. Plus, man cannot baptize with the Spirit so we know it was water. That is what Christ commanded.

So, if the Disciples were not water baptised in general, or not baptised as Christ demaned them to be, "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit", are you then saying that they were not elect?
I just showed that they were baptized in water in the name of the lord which is the same as in the name of the father, son, and HS. Why, because we are told how the fullness of the godhead resided in Jesus. Col 2:9

That they, then, did not 'obey the gospel'...they who preached the gospel?
They did obey the gospel as I have shown above.

Isn't it more likely that the baptism they exiperienced was the one that John the Baptist spoke of when he told them that Jesus would "baptist with Spirit and Fire?" This happened at Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit fell upon them. And this, by anyones reasoning, would be a moment of salvation and purely of God's will and grace.
The only ones baptized with the HS in acts 2 were the apostles. If you care to study that point we can. First it was the apostles in acts 1 that were told...
Acts 1:4-8 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
This is the promise of Mt 3:11. This promise is being directed to the apostles. Nobody else was with them at the time.
Are you saying that this promise is also for us today? That we too are not to depart from Jerusalem?

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
this was a promise made directly to the apostles. 10 days later we find this promise being performed on Pentecost. This promise was made to no one else.
 
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CNKW3

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I think perhaps, while your conclusions are ultimately good, you are, in fact, leading the conversation in a somewhat faulty way in order to reach a foregone conclusion. Let me explain:
Are our sins removed from us once we are saved? Yes, they are. That is the point of substitutionary atonement - what Jesus did for us on the cross; his death for ours (2 Cor 5:21).
His death on the cross was necessary so that our sins COULD be forgiven. His death on the cross did not forgive us all of our sins. We have a part to play in coming in contact with the blood of Jesus. If we don’t then everybody is saved and we know that is not true.

And while trying to force our hand with verses linking the lack of sin with the moment of salvation, which is a necessary outcome, you forget, or would have us forget, the many verses that do, in fact, link salvation with belief, faith and trust.
Yes we are saved by belief, faith, trust, blood, hope, baptism, confession. The point is we are not saved by anything “alone”.
Salvation is all about sin. Sin separates from God. Isa 59:1,2
In order to be reconciled back to God those sins MUST be remitted, forgiven, washed away. So, when does that happen?

Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” -Acts 16:30–31
Paul does not say 'be baptised' or 'be forgiven of your sins'. Indeed, when we put our faith, our love and trust in Christ, these other things come naturally.
You leave out verses 32-34? This is one of the biggest snow jobs around. You aren’t alone I have seen billy Graham and many others perform this same con for years. It is criminal and quite irritating and I’m trying to have patience.
Did a Roman Jailor know anything about the Lord Jesus? How could the Jailor put his trust in someone he knew nothing about? When you read the next few verses we find.....
Paul preached to him about Jesus
The man repented and washed their stripes.
Then he was baptized in the middle of the night. (How was he baptized if Paul didn’t preach baptism)
Then the text calls him a believer in vs 34.
I know you are an intelligent individual, so why do you let yourself be duped like that? You should be angry at whoever you have learned this from.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. -John 3:16
It doesn’t say “belief alone” does it? And this is a few verses after Jesus said....one MUST be born of water and the Spirit to enter into the kingdom. This is also right in the middle of a chapter dealing with water baptism. I believe even AT Robertson concedes that the water of John 3:5 is baptism.
Not only that but read John 3:36...this is how he explains it
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
In the Bible, to believe is to obey. You cannot separate the two. The Israelites in the wilderness were called unbelievers. Why, because they didn’t obey God. We know they believed in God. They had just left Egypt and crossed the Red Sea on dry ground. There is no way they could not “believe in God”.

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, -John 11:25
It doesn’t say...believe alone and as I explained above. What does the Bible mean when it says “believe”. I keep thinking you are pushing for mental ascent without coming out and saying it. Just spit it out.

There are also many other verses that speak of belief or faith in Christ...to many to just dismiss. Am I saying that this just means assent? No...we know that even the demons 'believe'. Clearly the belief is of the sort that equals a loving trust. The sort that affirms Jesus being the Christ, who came in the flesh and die for our sins. The sort that recognizes our need to humble ourselves to our great and awesome God and walk in humility before him, out of love and amazement of what he has done for us. But the verses are there...as I said, too many to simply dismiss them.
so are you going to dismiss the other verses that add other items to belief in Christ. God commands all men everywhere to repent. Are you going to dismiss that one. Christ said that he that believes AND IS baptized shall be saved. Will you dismiss that one. Peter says baptism saves us. I know you’ll dismiss that one. Paul says we must confess to be saved. Will you dismiss that one?
Do examples matter? In our everyday lives especially in school we love examples of how to do things but open the Bible and we dismiss every one. I’m still waiting for ALL the examples of people under the new covenant declared justified without doing anything. If you are correct we should see many of those examples. But so far all I can find are people who believed repented and were baptized in water, then they rejoiced, then there sins were washed away, then they were considered faithful, then they were considered believers.


Ah...excuse me while I splutter a little. This is a thread about the elect. Right? Those 'chosen' by God, apparently...and you're chastising me for quoting Ephesians Chapter 1? As it goes into depths of those 'predestined' by God before the foundation of the world?
The only quote you gave was 1:13. That is what I was responding to.

And while it is incredibly unkind to charge me 'uncaring' of the details, you do so at the expense of the actual point of the situation.
That being; it did not particularly matter if the Holy Spirit came upon them when Paul or someone else 'laid hands' upon them - the scripture is still quite clear. It WAS the Holy Spirit that came upon them, and it did so "because it was promised as guarantee of their inheritance." What promised inheritance was Paul talking about? The one he had just mentioned of course, the one "predestined before the forming of the world" to them.
It does matter because I know what you are doing. You are trying to say they were baptized with HS and they were not. Ive seen this passage used many times to try and prove the point that when a person “believes” they are baptized with the HS and therefore saved. But, what does the Bible mean by the word “believe”? Again you are pushing for mental ascent but won’t say it. Just spit it out. You believe that at the point a person, in their mind, believes in Jesus, the HS seals them for salvation. That is NOT what Eph 1 is teaching. My point is that Paul was writing to people who had already been obedient to the gospel including baptism and were by definition true “believers”. He then gave them the HS thereby sealing them as promised to those in the first century. Mk 16:17-20 acts 2:16-20,38


And when did they receive the Holy Spirit? This absolute seal of guarantee? When they heard the truth and believed.
I'm sorry, but it doesn't matter who spoke this truth to them, or who laid hands on them. The facts of the matter is that they heard, they believed and they were saved. There are no other details there that suggest anything else or demand anything else.
Told you you would say this. Were those in Ephesus baptized by Paul wayyy before this letter? Yes or no? Then how can you say they were saved at the point of mental ascent? Paul called them “believers” AFTER obedience just like the Jailor.




Okay...2 problems. First, 'the gospel' is the good news, best summed up by John 3:16. Or Rom 3:22-25, or 2 Cor 5:21, or Rom 1:16. Or numerous other passages before Mark 16.
And the reason I say that is problem no.2: Mark 16:9-20 is not included in some of the earliest manuscripts. And while I'm not a scholar and make no claim to be, I'd be hesitant to be the stamp of biblical authority on something that perhaps may not come from God. In other words...I'd want to be darn sure the teaching in that portion of scripture could be backed up very strongly in other portions of scripture that were sure. And in this case....I'm not sure. So...
Show me one Bible that leaves those verses out of there translation. There isn’t one. If they thought strongly enough against the validity of those passages they wouldn’t hesitate to leave them out. Look in your current translation and see if you have acts 8:37 in your Bible. How about 1 John 5:7,8?

When I posted only verses 2 and 5 it was because it was only they that had bearing on what we were discussing. It was not because I was being dishonest or attempting to decieve you. Why would I be bothered? The scriptures can clearly speak for themselves.
Since WE HAVE already BEEN justified BY FAITH, we HAVE PEACE with God through Jesus. Through him we HAVE OBTAINED access BY FAITH into his grace, which we stand and REJOICE IN HOPE.
Again. justified means....just if I had not sinned. It means you are cleansed from sin. When does that take place? It did not take place at the cross or all people would be saved. And it does NOT take place at the point of “belief”.
 

Kermos

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Nowhere does the Bible say......salvation is a gift of Gods grace and mercy ALONE. I would be happy to study those passages if you have them. God has warned us all through the ages to NOT add to or take away from his word. Adding the word “alone” is a huge problem in the Christian world today. Salvation is by nothing ALONE.
...snip
In the Gospel according to the Apostle Matthew, we find:

When the disciples heard [this], they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?"
And looking at [them] Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
(Matthew 19:25-26)

IMPOSSIBLE for people. That leaves God alone for people's salvation. Lord Jesus espouses very clear words.

THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS. LORD JESUS SPEAKS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME BECAUSE HE ALSO SAID "I DO NOT ASK ON BEHALF OF THESE ALONE, BUT FOR THOSE ALSO WHO BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD" (JOHN 17:20)! ALL THESE WORDS OF JESUS ARE AT THE SAME SUPPER! ALL GLORY IS GOD'S! WITH MAN, SALVATION IS IMPOSSIBLE (MATTHEW 19:25-26)! ALL GLORY IN THE SALVATION OF MAN IS GOD'S (JOHN 15:5, ISAIAH 42:8)!
 

CNKW3

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Not true. The whole passage is speaking about the glorification of both the children of God and the earth as well.
Where does it say “earth”? You are adding words again. Just because the Bible uses the word “creation” or “creature” does not mean he is talking about the whole earth.
For example ...
Col 1:15 calls Christ the firstborn of every “creature”. This is talking about souls. He was the first to be raised from the dead never to see death again. This will not happen to my dog.
Col 1:23 the gospel had been preached to every “creature” some say creation, under heaven.
He’s not talking about the gospel being preached to animals.
2 Cor 5:17. If any man be “in Christ” he is a new creature/creation.
So the word creature or creation can be used only for Gods creation of man.

This is a major promise of God's to us, a longing of the soul that scripture teaches is normal.
Romans 8:18 compares the sufferings of this time unworthy to be compared to what is coming. 19 says the creation itself groans for its own release and for ours as well.
Let’s talk about Romans 8 for a second. When a person is “born again” or is baptized “into Christ” rom 6 and Gal 3, they become a new creation. 2 Cor 5:17. These are the people Paul is referring to. This is the creation that has hope and longing for more. Atheist and people who don’t believe could care less what happens, they believe that when you die you are just dead anyway. It is the born again believer the child of God, the heir of God, Rom 8:17, that groans. It is the believer that is “saved by hope” vs 24.
In vs 23 when he says...not only they but ourselves also, I believe he is referring to himself and the other apostles who had “the firstfruits of the Spirit”. Who did the Spirit come to first? The apostles. Even the apostles groan within themselves waiting for the “redemption of the body”.

Paul talks in Corinthians about how if Christ's resurrection didn't happen, then all our longings for resurrection; all our hopes for that future, were just foolishness, and we were to be pitied.
Resurrection and renewal is a MAJOR theme for the Christian walk. In fact the link between justification, sanctification and glorification cannot be pulled apart.
So, I would say that you're picking at pieces. Hope, in the future promises of God to his children, are just as essential as any other promises he's ever made.
No problems there, but what does that have to do with WHO is the elect? I just explained above why I believe the whole earth doesn’t long or hope for resurrection. The whole earth don’t care.


Please see my answer above.
Also...apparently you DO need me to give the verses that point out that obvious link between the 'salvation' in those 'elect' passages with salvation in 'salvation' passages. Sad day indeed.
You did not answer those two vital questions.
Can a person be saved and still be in their sins? Is this one so hard to answer?
At what point does the Bible say our sins are removed?
Since you won’t answer, and don’t worry nobody else will either, we will study this just for you. You can’t say I don’t give you my time.
The gospel of Jesus Christ under the new covenant had a beginning. It was on Pentecost in Jerusalem. Lk 24: 46,47. This is where the saving gospel of Jesus Christ, that we are accountable to, was first preached.
......Acts 2 the believing audience was told....repent and be baptized for remission of sins.
When were their sins remitted? After baptism.
......Acts 3 the same preacher told them to repent and be converted that their sins may be blotted out. When were their sins blotted out? After conversion. Peter told this audience the same thing as the other audience, unless you think Peter contradicts himself, but it is recorded differently to supply us with more information.
......Acts 22. Saul was told to arise be baptized and wash away his sins calling on the name of the lord. When were his sins washed away? After baptism. Also when was he to call on the name of the lord ? After baptism.
......Rom 6. The first number of verses is a beautiful description of water baptism. It’s a burial and resurrection to a new life. When does the new life (regeneration, born again,etc) take place? After one is raised out of baptism. Read vs 3-6
......Rom 6. Further down within the same context Paul tells these converts that they had obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine delivered unto them ( what form? Baptism, the one he just got through explaining) THEN made free from sin. When were they made free from sin? After they had obeyed that form (baptism) of doctrine. It was the Romans who were present on Pentecost in acts 2 who were told to repent and be baptized for remission of sins.
......Col 2. Paul told these Christians that they had been circumcised with the circumcision made without hands. He described it as...putting off the body of the sins of the flesh. Buried with christ in baptism wherein they had been risen with him (parallel to Rom 6)
Then in vs 13 he says...being dead in your sins he hath quickened or made alive forgiving them all trespasses. Is this not beautiful. When were they made alive? When were their sins forgiven? After being buried in baptism, just like Rom 6.
......1 pet 3:21 says water baptism...”doth also now save us”.
Do you know if you people had just ONE verse that said... faith alone doth now save us, you would run with it for ever and it would be all we would hear. But you don’t.
See how beautiful the Bible harmonizes. Jesus said unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom. Well when did the lord add those to the church in acts 2? After baptism.
It’s after baptism one is raised to walk in newness of life. If this is not being born again I don’t know what is. Salvation is “in christ”. How does one get “into Christ”? By being baptized into Christ rom 6 and Gal 3. It is alll in such beautiful harmony. Why you folks tear it apart I’ll never know.


"For no good reason, just because he wants to".
Am I alone here...? You see that, right?
One, I'd say he does it because of love. But I'd also say as God, he jolly well gets to do it for whatever reason he wants to and call it 'good enough'. When you create your own universe, you can make up the rules you see fit. K?
God cannot lie, so when he says...that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all that obey him, then this is a promise that will stand forever. If you don’t obey Christ you will not see eternal life. He said unless one is born of WATER and the Spirit you cannot enter into the kingdom.
Jn 12:48 also tells us that it will be his WORDS that judge us in the end. Not his feelings on the matter.

And while I very much like the verses I put below and agree they are true, I'm not really seeing how God could 'not know who the elect are' from the foundation of the world if people somehow wobbled off the path.
I never said that God doesn’t know who or who will not be obedient and faithful. I believe he does but this in no way means he determined it to be that way. Foreknowledge is NOT predestination.

That's implying that something you or I might do is bigger than something God can or has decided or decreed. That he'd be going "drat....I HAD decided to call that person, but they've gone disobedient on me, so there goes that idea...'
why would God predestine that you are more special then me? We are told that God is no respector of persons. God has decided to call everybody but not everybody will answer that call. Remember...God so love the world?
Also....grace that brings salvation hath appeared to ALL MEN? Why aren’t all men saved. They don’t respond.
Election is the idea that God, his plan his will is more powerful than our mistakes, our sin.
And it is but not everyone is saved so there must be a catch somewhere. If his plan overcomes all our sins then why aren’t we all saved? We have a part to play.

It is in that way that we can neither boast in our salvation, nor mess it up. It just is. And once it is, then we praise, rejoice, marvel, worship, and walk in the good works he has prepared in advance.
Can’t mess it up? Please! That’s a long hard study for another day that is completely false. I see you are from Australia. The country I would most like to visit in all the world. I dont know about you but I’m from the USA and it’s “Christians” in this country that are destroying it with this garbage right here. It used to be that Christians stood up for decency, modesty, morality, and that it mattered but that is long gone because now nobody can “mess it up”. Nobody can sin so as to not go to heaven. So, everybody lives like a dog and you can’t tell who is a Christian and who is not.


Except the parts that contradict scripture. Grace is not by works. Its that simple. If it is, it is no longer grace. If you can find me a scripture that untangles that one...but, no. There is none. Grace must be a gift in its entirety. Because if not, we stuff it up again, even if it's just us patting ourselves on the back for a job well done.
if you will show me one just one contradiction from what I’ve been saying I will study it further. I’ll be waiting for that ONE place where I am teaching a contradiction.
 

CNKW3

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In the Gospel according to the Apostle Matthew, we find:

When the disciples heard [this], they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?"
And looking at [them] Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
(Matthew 19:25-26)

IMPOSSIBLE for people. That leaves God alone for people's salvation. Lord Jesus espouses very clear words.

THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS. LORD JESUS SPEAKS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME BECAUSE HE ALSO SAID "I DO NOT ASK ON BEHALF OF THESE ALONE, BUT FOR THOSE ALSO WHO BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD" (JOHN 17:20)! ALL THESE WORDS OF JESUS ARE AT THE SAME SUPPER! ALL GLORY IS GOD'S! WITH MAN, SALVATION IS IMPOSSIBLE (MATTHEW 19:25-26)! ALL GLORY IN THE SALVATION OF MAN IS GOD'S (JOHN 15:5, ISAIAH 42:8)!
Yes it is impossible for people to save themselves but through obedience to God they can be saved. Nowhere does the text say....God does everything man does nothing.
 

Kermos

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Yes it is impossible for people to save themselves but through obedience to God they can be saved. Nowhere does the text say....God does everything man does nothing.
Lord Jesus says "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" in response to the disciples question of "Then who can be saved?" (Matthew 19:25-26).

According to Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), even obedience by a person is impossible in relation to being saved.

According to the creature going by the name CNKW3, obedience is possible to salvation.

Lord Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no one get to the Father except through Emmanuel (John 14:6)!

SALVATION IS BY GOD ALONE FOR IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR MAN TO SAVE

The Apostle Peter writes obedience is fruit of the Holy Spirit, for we have the Apostle Peter's writing of "obeying the truth through the Spirit" (1 Peter 1:22). This fruit explaines Fruit of the Holy Spirit of God in we believers, and the post includes the contrast between fruit of the flesh and Fruit of the Spirit of God (this post is in this thread).

That puts you, CNKW3, in fruit of the flesh for you unabashedly express that you can be obedient in and of yourself in direct opposition to the words of the Apostle Peter (1 Peter 1:22).

You put your obedience outside of that which the Word of God dictates with "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3); therefore, you works (obedience) is filthy rags to God because you say it is your obedience.

Your words were "Salvation is by nothing ALONE" in your post #1330 on this page is opposed to the words of Lord Jesus in Matthew 19:26, and your words of "Nowhere does the text say....God does everything man does nothing" in your post #1334 is a lie because of Lord Jesus' words in Matthew 19:26 and John 15:16!

This current post addends this richly scriptural post illuminating the exclusive sovereignty of God in man's salvation post.

THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS. LORD JESUS SPEAKS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME BECAUSE HE ALSO SAID "I DO NOT ASK ON BEHALF OF THESE ALONE, BUT FOR THOSE ALSO WHO BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD" (JOHN 17:20)! ALL THESE WORDS OF JESUS ARE AT THE SAME SUPPER! ALL GLORY IS GOD'S! WITH MAN, SALVATION IS IMPOSSIBLE (MATTHEW 19:25-26)! ALL GLORY IN THE SALVATION OF MAN IS GOD'S (JOHN 15:5, ISAIAH 42:8)!
 

CNKW3

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Well, just hold up a second now. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. In other words, its all very well and good for you to not trust me, but who's to say we can trust you?

You can’t, neither do I want you to. You must investigate what I’m delivering with the passages I’m giving you. I am trying to prove all things so we can both hold fast to that which is good. You are to test me and see if what I’m saying is so. I asked you in the previous post show me all my contradictions. I’ll be looking for those. This will be you testing the spirit.


You say that quoting scripture means we're prophets? Also all well and good, but as we have daily proof here, people can use whatever scripture they want to attempt to explain anything.

1 Thess 5:21 says to test everything. 1 John 4:1 says to "test the spirits" and Eph 5:10 tells us to try and discern what is pleasing to the Lord. My guess would be the correct dividing of his word.
No argument there. That’s why we are told to “rightly divide the word of truth”

You say that a person 'has never accepted Jesus and prayed for salvation'. That's a big claim...are you perhaps privy to every personal conversation and transaction between every person and God?
No I am not privy to all and neither do I need to be. Do you think the HS just changed somewhere midstream and started accepting anything for salvation? Why did Paul baptize the Ephesians twice if anything is accepted? Paul in 1 Cor 4 said he preached the same thing in every church. So if we can follow what he did in just one church we will have all the information we need. Plus he said he preached the same faith that Peter preached Gal 1:23. So he and Peter preached the same message.
Those on Pentecost heard believed and were baptized.
Lydia....heard believed and was baptized.
Jailor heard believed and was baptized.
Corinthians heard believed and were baptized. We know these are in water because Paul said he did some of the baptizing.
Those in Ephesus heard believed and were baptized.
Now show me where a convert of Paul’s did anything different like accept and pray.


You also say that just believing in Jesus for this salvation is not biblical...that it cannot be biblically proven. That's also a big claim. Considering ALL the bible verses that outright say "believe and be saved". Kind of staggering, really. Here's just a small smattering of them:
In Hebrews we are told that those in the wilderness could not enter the land because of unbelief. What does that mean? You really think they didn’t believe in or know who God was, after all they had been privy to?


- For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvationto everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


Romans 3:22- the righteousness of Godthrough faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
where is the word “alone”. Through faith in Jesus “alone”. I don’t see it.


- because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Wait a minute! I thought it was “believe alone”. What’s with this confession stufff?

To be contd
 

CNKW3

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Let me try and get this straight. In your OP you said that you could not accept something unless you could see it 'physically proven', which I thought strange, given that Christianity is based largely on things we cannot see.
No I did not say that I could not accept something unless it was physically proven even though I believe their is physical proof for much of what I believe including the resurrection. I was calling all those people out who claim they are elect and they have the HS to prove it. They can’t demonstrate anything. It is all made up. And yes, if you tell me you have the personal indwelling of the HS which most of you claim, I’m going to ask you to prove it. Maybe the Spirit you have is from the devil. I will NOT take your word for it. The HS dwells in me through the word. In Rom 8 we are told that “the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the sons of God. How does he do that? When we do what the Spirit says in order to become a child of God then we can be assured that is what we are.

Read Gal 3:26-29. The Spirit tells me that when I am baptized into Christ it is at that point that I put on Christ and become a child of God and heir to the promise of Abraham. This is how the Spirit bears witness that I am a son of God. If you don’t do that then you are NOT a child of God, unless through the Spirit you can show me where they did something different. I’ve read the NT and it’s not in there.

But after all this, all you actually mean, when you say "physically prove" is just "by scripture". Yeah? Because if so, you could have ratched down a notch or two any time someone used scripture...even if you disagreed with them over it.
Mostly. But if you are one who says you are personally indwelled with the Spirit I would ask you to prove it by demonstration. All those indwelled with the Spirit in the first century could demonstrate gifts. I know those today who claim this can’t. That would include you too if you are in that camp. But, yes, a lot of how we prove our condition today is through the word of the Spirit which is the Bible.

That would include you too?

(sorry...couldn't quite resist!)
No worries.

I don't believe we recieve *The Word* from the Holy Spirit anymore. Nothing authoritive. But the Holy Spirit is not unmoving today. I think, from experience and from what I read in the bible, that he still imparts different gifts and even messages to individuals. Nothing at all like what happened in the Apostolic time, just...needful things.
I don’t know what the Spirit does today. I personally don’t know if he does that much. I don’t believe he really needs to. He has done all that was needed. I do know that he does NOT reveal new doctrine. I do know that the gifts of 1 Cor 12 are no longer in effect. They were for confirming and revealing the New covenant. I believe he works totally through the word. People that truly love God will want to know his word and will study it.

I've had things like...a totally random bible passage pop into my head. One that I had no reason to be thinking of or to have it applied to my situation, but when I did...oh! It made such a difference! The teaching moment that humbled me. It could only have been the Spirit in that moment. It was for no one else, just me and my growth and walk.
No...he's still active in those he dwells within.
My response to this is...if you had not studied the Bible that verse would have never popped into your mind. The same thing happens to me but only since I have been studying more and more. When I was younger that never happened because I never studied the book. You are right though, I do believe that is the Spirit working in you through the word he has given us.

Since I've just gone back and addressed that post that I missed, I think we can pass over those scriptures in general. But proof, you say. That I am one of the elect. That I have salvation in Christ Jesus?

Well, lets see, should I just give you various verses, or should I give you what I believe? Maybe both. I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who came to earth and live a sinless life and die in my place. I believe he rose from the grave victorious and ascended to heaven where he now interceeds at the Fathers right hand for me. And I believe he will come again for those he calls his own.

I believe all that, but along with mental acknowledgement comes an awakened heart to the truth of it all. Ezekiel referred to it as 'removing the heart of stone' and replacing it with one of flesh, one that not only recognized my sin and my need for a Saviour, but a love for Him.

I think that right there is probably the true test of faith. Does a person have love for Jesus Christ? Do they love the Father for what he has extended to us?
So if you recognize that you are a sinner and need all those past sins forgiven then at what point does Jesus do that for you? Are you saying that he did it at the point of your mental acknowledgment? Because you cannot find one example of that ever happening in the early church., and the apostles never taught that either. This is where I’m asking for bible proof. Just think...if I can make something up by the way I feel even though I can’t prove it from scripture then where does that stop. Anybody can say or do whatever they want and you can’t say anything about it. That means there is no standard to go by.

But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God. -Galatians 4:4–7
When you read chapter 3 how did they become children of God? At what point did they become an heir? He explains it all in 3:26-29. And it wasn’t at the point of “accepting Jesus as their personal savior. Why people teach that I’ll never know. Or maybe I do know.

It is a sad, cruel word where a child must perform to keep a father happy. Our heavenly Father is not like that, especially when the penalty has already been paid, allowing us to cry, 'Abba, Father!' With verses like this, and so many of the other ones demanding grace as a free gift, I'm not sure where you have left to turn.
I’m not trying to keep God happy, just trying to follow his rules he set for his family. We don’t get to make the rules of the house which is the church. 1 Tim 3:15. But all these denominations do exactly that. They make up their own rules. I do not believe God is happy with that.

So you allow your kids to do whatever they want? There are no rules, no conditions whatsoever for them to live by? What about the prodigal son. He left and fell into destruction and the father never stopped him, but when he came back the father met him with open arms. God will let you leave if you want to. If my kids don’t like my rules and they want to leave they can go. If they change their mind and repent I will always welcome them back.

I'm. Not even sure where to start.
Who ELSE would the elect be but the Church? The Church is the body of Christ, who are made up of people who are saved. Ergo...the elect. And I'm positive that God did, indeed, foreknow them. Predestine them even.
And I know you'll be shocked and appalled when you learn that I find that Lydia's good manners still aren't enough to blow away ALL THE OTHER VERSES THAT SPEAK ABOUT SALVATION BEING A FREE GIFT!
So if I told you I would give you 1 million dollars (I’m not) but if I said...I will give you a million dollars but you have to fly from Australia to New York and meet at the Statue of Liberty to get it, would that be a free gift? Do you think flying to NY is worthy of a million dollars? Would you think that you had worked for that money?

If the ford place in my town ran an add that said.....
If you come to the dealership this Sunday, be immersed in our pool we will give you a new truck? How many people do you think would show up in a bathing suit ready to be immersed? Also do you think this is a free gift or that anybody did anything to earn a truck? They did have to do something though didn’t they. What is the difference? Is being dunked in water worthy of salvation? No. But it is a condition for it whether you like it or not.
 

CNKW3

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Water baptism does not save.
Jn 3 is not speaking of water baptism.
shocker!
I dont know and will never know but I wonder how it feels to make a statement like this and then I post a passage from the Bible that states just the opposite....1 Pet 3:21 baptism doth also now save us. (speaking of water)
Its just like faith alone...I can present a divinely inspired writer stating "we are NOT saved by faith alone" and you people dont care. you will go to ends of the earth to argue against, not me, but divinely inspired people like Peter and James. What a sad place to be in.

lets look at this idea of being born again. All this means is that you now have a new life, you have been regenerated, right?
Does this idea connect to water baptism? Yes or No? lets examine...
when is a person "made alive", "regenerated", "quickened", "raised to walk in newness of life"? After sins are forgiven, correct? You cannot be a "born again" believer until your past sins are forgiven. That is redemption. Your sins are forgiven and you are now in a right relationship with God. You are a "new creation/creature".
were those in Acts 2 "born again"? I hope so, because we are told that the Lord was adding them to the church which is his kingdom. Mt 16:18,19
You cant enter the kingdom unless you are born again.
So, the big question is......At what point in Acts 2 were they "born again"? reading comprehension 101 says.....when there sins were remitted in vs 38 or actually vs 41. It is after they were baptized "for the remission of sins" that they were forgiven, made alive, quickened, regenerated, born again. IF NOT, WHY NOT? A person cannot be born again while still in their sins.

Is "being raised to walk in newness of life" a description of the born again process? IF NOT, WHY NOT?
in Rom 6, at what point did Paul say they had raised to walk in newness of life? Being raised out of baptism. They were buried and then they were raised to walk in newness of life. Born Again? Absolutely! IF NOT, WHY NOT. And I feel pity for the people that try to make this beautiful description of baptism into "baptism in the Spirit". Some do and it is sad.

we have a parallel thought in Eph 5:26 and Titus 3:5 In one we have a washing of regeneration (born again, right) and in the other it says a washing in water. same thought described two different ways. The beautiful thing is that it is in complete harmony with John 3:5 the washing of regeneration happens in the washing of water. Born of water. All three verses teach the same thing. We are born again through the teaching of the word which culminates in water baptism. This is how Peter can say that we are born again through the word. 1 Pet 1:22-23 Its the word that gives us the conditions to be obeyed.

To be "made alive" or "quickened" is to be born again, right? IF NOT, WHY NOT
In Col 2 we are told that a person is quickened, made alive AFTER they have been buried with Christ in baptism. They are "born again". IF NOT WHY NOT. Water baptism is a burial. Spirit baptism doesnt look like anything, certainly not a burial. i say that because people will continue to argue against this as water baptism which is juvenile. Water baptism was the one commanded by Christ and water baptism is the only one man can administer.

In 2 Cor 5 we see that a person who is "in Christ" is a new creature. old things have passed away behold all things become new.
Born again, right?
well, how does one get "into Christ"? Rom 6 and Gal 3 tells us we are baptized into Christ. Once we are baptized into Christ we become a new creature. Born again.
I have more but I'm getting tired and I know this wont be accepted. But this should be plenty of evidence to connect baptism to the born again process. Feel free to show us all the passages that connect being born again to "faith alone". How a person is regenerated, made alive, etc at the point they accept Christ as their savior without doing anything whatsoever.
 

Kermos

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shocker!
I dont know and will never know but I wonder how it feels to make a statement like this and then I post a passage from the Bible that states just the opposite....1 Pet 3:21 baptism doth also now save us. (speaking of water)
Its just like faith alone...
...snip
Behold, the Apostle Peter writes "not the removal of dirt from the flesh" in 1st Peter 3:21, so Peter is not talking about water bath in a tub rather Peter is talking about immersion in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ where in the Holy Spirit-filled believer appeals to God for a good conscience. Here is the whole verse 1 Peter 3:21 of which you severely truncated in order to twist scripture into your false theology.

"Corresponding to that, immersion now saves you?not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3:21)

Behold, the Apostle John writes of Living Water of God and the immersion of us believers in (receive) the Spirit of God "Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, 'If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, "From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water."' But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive" (John 7:37-39).

Behold, the Apostle Peter said to be immersed in the of the Name of Jesus, Lord and God and His innermost being flows rivers of Living Water (John 20:28), "Repent, and each of you be immersed in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself" (Acts 2:38-39) - do not forget that the Apostle Peter also wrote "not the removal of dirt from the flesh" (1 Peter 3:21).

Lord Jesus also said this "whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life" (John 4:14) - that is "water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life"!!!

The word baptize is immerse, so the immersion is in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ!

CNKW3, you're very first citation in your post is in your attempt at deception, but your deception is exposed.

A liar cannot be trusted. You are caught in a lie about 1 Peter 3:21. You are caught lying about scripture AGAIN.

Lord Jesus is the Truth (John 14:6), and in the Gospel according to the Apostle Matthew, we find:

When the disciples heard [this], they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?"
And looking at [them] Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
(Matthew 19:25-26)

IMPOSSIBLE for people - impossible to be obedient for salvation - impossible to choose Jesus - impossible to do any deeds that please God; however, that leaves God alone for people's salvation - faith/belief in a believer is a work of God (John 6:29), obedience in a believer is a work of God (1 Peter 1:21), birth by the Spirit in a believer is a work of God (John 3:3-8), seeing the Kingdom of God is a work of God (John 3:3-8).

God alone saves man by God's grace for God's glory.

THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS. LORD JESUS SPEAKS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME BECAUSE HE ALSO SAID "I DO NOT ASK ON BEHALF OF THESE ALONE, BUT FOR THOSE ALSO WHO BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD" (JOHN 17:20)! ALL THESE WORDS OF JESUS ARE AT THE SAME SUPPER! ALL GLORY IS GOD'S! WITH MAN, SALVATION IS IMPOSSIBLE (MATTHEW 19:25-26)! ALL GLORY IN THE SALVATION OF MAN IS GOD'S (JOHN 15:5, ISAIAH 42:8)!
 
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