Teresa of Avila and Watering the Garden

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farouk

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How about going directly to God? If we seek the answer in the scripture and our heart is wrong in our search, our answer will not be what we might hope for or even at times what it should be. The scripture does not say that the scriptures will teach you all things...

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26
What the Holy Spirit says will always be in conformity with the Word of God.
 
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marks

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I'm trying to wrap my mind around declaring yourself to be righteous, even if you never do any right thing and declaring yourself to be holy even if you sin. Its all smoke and mirrors.
It's not what you say, it's what God says. Smoke and mirrors to you, but the Gospel of Grace from God.

A mistake people make is in thinking there are degrees of righteousness, or levels of holiness, or some such. It's like saying, "a little pregnant". Either you are or you are not.

Either you sin, or you don't. Either you are a sinner, or you are not.

God is about truth.

Either all your works are right before God, and therefore you are righteous, or that righteousness is a fiction, a delusion. But how can such a thing be?

Either you are set apart for God - holy - or you are not - unholy.

Is anyone, including God, playing "let's pretend"?

Or are we ignoring what God means when He - He - says we are created truly holy?

Much love!
 
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amadeus

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To say I’m justified through works is arrogant.

"And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." James 2:23-24
 

GodsGrace

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I agree, I think, but...some men lose their fear of God. Indoctrination causes them to not heed warnings that are given for their good. They begin to think that since God accepts them because they trust Him, that any subsequent mistrust is of no concern. But God saved Israel. They trusted Him enough to step out under a towering wall of water, but their later lack of trust caused them to be cut off. And we are told to fear God who can also cut us off if our hearts also become unbelieving. Yet indoctrinations cause men to say that He can no longer cut men off for later unbelief. He is patient, but we should not think later unbelief and disobedience of trust will be dealt with regarding us in a different way than it was with Israel in the desert. That would make God a respecter of us. We trust and He saves, just as Israel trusted and He saved. Israel then did not have that obedience of trust still, afterward. They did not continue in trust. They did not learn the obedience of trust. They did not stand firm in it. They abandoned trust in Him over and over in the desert.

The apostle carefully tried to lay this all out. He said, God saved Israel from death. WHO did God save? Wasn't it Israel? Yes, God saved Israel. But WHO did God later cut off and not allow to enter? Wasn't it Israel, those He had already saved? And WHY did He cut off those He had saved? Wasn't it because they didn't abide/continue in trust?

And despite the apostle carefully laying it out for us, we insist we can't be cut off for not continuing and remaining in trust. The apostle could not have BEEN more carefully overt, and yet we insist, because of indoctrination, that it cannot happen. WE can collect more than enough for the day. WE can have the stockpile Israel desired. WE can not have the obedience of daily trust. WE can do exactly like Israel, but we will be treated differently. Right?
SBG, I NEVER said we cannot be cut off.
Romans 11:20-23 addresses your post, and I agree with it.

This would be speaking of eternal security...a different discussion altogether.
We were discussing the meaning of Righteousness and Holiness.
I was NOT discussing eternal security.
St. Teresa, BTW, did NOT believe in eternal security.
 

amadeus

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Phinehas was also justified...same words...for killing idolators. So then are we to kill idolators too in order to be justified?

God CHOOSES whom He will justify. There is no outer pattern to follow. It is an inner pattern.
Phinehas killed idolators among the children of natural Israel. We are to kill the idolatrous beasts within ourselves. God has provided all that is needed for us to do so... but too many don't want to pick the tools and go to work on themselves. The problem is the attractions of sin. Those attractions in our hearts are some our own beasts in need of killing so as to sin no more.

"For all that is in the world, (1) the lust of the flesh, and (2) the lust of the eyes, and (3) the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16 (three beasts)

"She [wisdom] hath killed her beasts..." Prov 9:2

But people also say that Jesus has already killed the old man not realizing that the beasts are the essence of the old man and the sinning continues and too often even increases.

"He [the new man] must increase, but I [the old man] must decrease." John 3:30
 

amadeus

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Actually your verse is not saying what you think...the work of God is NOT what you can do. God's work is ...that you believe TO Jesus. To enter INTO Him.

No one can believe TO Jesus...to be where He is...unless taken there by the Father. It is God's power that does this.

if you are not where Jesus is you will have no victory over all sin. You will walk as a normal human being...and not in the victorious walk of Jesus Christ.
The Father draws us, but we can refuse to approach and to answer.

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44

Little Samuel kept hearing God call to him. Thinking it was old Eli, the high priest, he went to him. Receiving direction, Samuel chose to go and listen again and answer. We also have a choice to make when we feel God drawing us.
 
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marks

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A born again person has a renewed conscience....so that they become as the righteous ones...like children in regards to evil. Now they can serve righteousness...and maybe even go further and enter into Christ...if they seek hard for that.
A born again person who isn't in Christ. There's an oxymoron.

But they can "enter into Christ" if "they . . .".

Always focusing on works instead of faith, yourself instead of Christ.
 

GodsGrace

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Correct. But that doesn't mean we take over the judgement. God counted him as righteous. He himself did not account himself as righteous.
You're using the human, man-made description of righteous again.

Can't you just accept that righteous means RIGHT WITH GOD?

Do YOU think YOU are right with God?

And if you do,,, is that arrogant, or is it just something God has told you?
 

amadeus

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If you're talking about all this stuff on YouTube which should not even be watched by a new Christian...then I agree. It's a world of confusion.
The confusion is not restricted to YouTube by any means.
 

GodsGrace

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A born again person who isn't in Christ. There's an oxymoron.

But they can "enter into Christ" if "they . . .".

Always focusing on works instead of faith, yourself instead of Christ.
I also don't understand the difference between what @Episkopos calls a born-again person and a person that is IN CHRIST...although I DO believe we must be IN CHRIST.

But HOW is being IN CHRIST a work?
John 15:5-6
 

VictoryinJesus

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A born again person has a renewed conscience....so that they become as the righteous ones...like children in regards to evil. Now they can serve righteousness...and maybe even go further and enter into Christ...if they seek hard for that.

But where do we go from a new birth? To an indoctrinating man-made church?
Or to God?

Almost nobody today goes to God. There is just so much man-made ministry stuff available. It is the easy way. The wide road of religion.

But God is available to they who seek after Him.

very few will try this however.

That is where I always struggle with your post. Whosoever is born of God overcomes the world. But you seem to make it about the children born of God must please their Father or else ...He forsakes them. That is not what I hear at all. When a person is truly born of the Spirit is the question...whether one is natural as the natural branches warned can be cut off...but not whosoever is born of God and is a New creature. The word does not say the New creature born of God is cut off. It is His Spirit that justifies and wherever His Spirit is, there is Life and freedom from death...no more condemnation. God chooses when and where to give His Spirit ...what you say suggest He makes a mistake in giving to some that do not “whatsoever is born of God overcomes the World”.

Same reason in the wilderness they didn’t go into the promised land. God said He would not be mocked. Do you think He is mocked by birthing children of the Spirit of God to fall short?

Romans 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

1 Peter 1:4-5 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, [5] Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

There is something Paul knew well and that is Paul knew “He who is in you is Greater than he that is in the world”.
1 John 4:4-8 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. [5] They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. [6] We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. [7] Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. [8] He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.


He is either “in you” and IS Greater than he that is in the World” and whatsoever is ‘in you’ ...overcomes the world(in fear not for I have overcome the world)...because He IS Greater indeed. Or it is tossed about on the waves never coming to the full knowledge of the truth but walking a fence, limping between two opinions ...saying He is Greater but denying it by works that must be maintained or they fail which by nature are our own works or they would not fail. God does not fail. God does not grow weary nor faint...that is the point of “little children” you are born of God.

Yes there is an urging to be certain you will never hear “I never knew you” meaning where there is NO Spirit of God there is no Life...and in Works He never knew you. Paul knew what was in Him was Greater and nothing could separate Paul from the love of God...which was fully displayed in his fearlessness of what men could do to him....KNOWING nothing could separate him from God. What you keep speaking is there are no reassurance in the abilities of God but all assurance rest solely on the child even after birthed of God and Life...to possibly not endure. That is not what He says of where His Spirit is but the opposite as His Spirit overcomes and endures all things and is faithful and true. Acts 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

Perfect soundness of the Spirit of God...how can this be when God is painted as a God who bears children of His Spirit ...then decides whether they are New creatures worthy of the New creation. That is not what the Word says ...but those of HIM will build the old waste places. Doesn’t say anything about God aborting children born of Him.
 
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GodsGrace

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It's not what you say, it's what God says. Smoke and mirrors to you, but the Gospel of Grace from God.

A mistake people make is in thinking there are degrees of righteousness, or levels of holiness, or some such. It's like saying, "a little pregnant". Either you are or you are not.

Either you sin, or you don't. Either you are a sinner, or you are not.

God is about truth.

Either all your works are right before God, and therefore you are righteous, or that righteousness is a fiction, a delusion. But how can such a thing be?

Either you are set apart for God - holy - or you are not - unholy.

Is anyone, including God, playing "let's pretend"?

Or are we ignoring what God means when He - He - says we are created truly holy?

Much love!
I agree 100% with your above statemens.

I just want to say that I do believe holiness means the same for everyone...

But we cannot deny that some of our works are superior to others.
For instance: St. Francis --- who even dreams of being at this level of doing God's works?

Or St. Teresa.
Or St. Joan of Arc?
etc.

They surely have done more works than any of us here....
But we are still holy. Set apart for the works of God (whatever they may be).