Teresa of Avila and Watering the Garden

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amadeus

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That's not true. God is just as available today as before. The alternative to fellowship with God is to go to men to be indoctrinated into an excuse to NOT have to go directly to God.

So men declare themselves justified because they haven't yet encountered God.

Those who have encountered God don't claim anything for themselves. They leave the things of God...in the hands of God.
They also continue to listen to Him for direction.
 
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marks

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Actually no more so than to declare one's own righteousness through one's beliefs.
Well, not really, since God declares we are justified by faith. Arrogance is to claim some other way, such as "getting your own righteousness for yourself." That would be hubris.
 
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amadeus

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No, I'm seriously asking. What works did they do in the desert that were filthy rags?
Consider the difference between Joshua and Caleb, and the other adults who were brought out of Egypt [600,000 not counting women and children]. 40 years of trials in the wilderness before entering into the Promised Land versus death within 40 years and no entrance allowed. Who passed God's test?
 
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amadeus

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It's God's Word...His private leadings never contradict the written Word...
Actually the Word of God is Jesus. The written Bible until quickened in a man remains a dead carcass on the cross. Resurrection is needed which is the purpose of the Holy Spirit within us.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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What you BELIEVE IS YOUR DOCTRINE.

John 7:16-18 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. [17] If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. [18] He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

See movement in “seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish (plant)their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Why would anyone want to take away from establishing (planting)“his righteousness” “God’s righteousness” and seeking to glorify Him who sent him.

This is God’s Work...that you believe. Not man’s work that you believe...but This is the Work of God.1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

It is God that gives the increase.
 
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marks

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I also don't understand the difference between what @Episkopos calls a born-again person and a person that is IN CHRIST...although I DO believe we must be IN CHRIST.

But HOW is being IN CHRIST a work?
John 15:5-6
It's not a work. When we believe, God baptises us into Christ, and we are In Christ. "If any be in Christ he is a new creation." If you are not "in Christ", you have not been born again. So this distinction is false according to this and a number of other passages.

Much love!
 

Episkopos

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It's God's Word...His private leadings never contradict the written Word...


But all the works of Jesus could not fit into all the books of the world. You would be so dogmatic as to limit God to one book? If God says...go to Cleveland!...does that go "against" the bible?

Do you not understand who God is? Is He locked in a small book?

And why are you so afraid of anything outside the book? Do you have any faith in God?
 

amadeus

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What else?
Well as we know...

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." I Cor 14:33

Any other author is likely to be confused. That would include you, me and anyone else here when NOT led by the Holy Spirit. We see this issue come up clearly not less than twice in the OT... at tower Babel and in the Babylonian kingdom. But if we are always on God's side we'll be OK.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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That would include you, me and anyone else here when NOT led by the Holy Spirit

If I understood correctly, Epi says there is a difference in righteousness and holiness and that difference is being “led of the Spirit” or “in the Spirit” ...so are you “led” or “in” ...do you support righteousness is separate from Holiness in God? Do you support in the age to come that those Holy and “in” the Spirit will rule over those just righteous and “led” of the Spirit. I’m sorry...but it doesn’t line up. Can you show me how it lines up with what God has said?
 

stunnedbygrace

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SBG, I NEVER said we cannot be cut off.
Romans 11:20-23 addresses your post, and I agree with it.

This would be speaking of eternal security...a different discussion altogether.
We were discussing the meaning of Righteousness and Holiness.
I was NOT discussing eternal security.
St. Teresa, BTW, did NOT believe in eternal security.

I was just giving an example of how indoctrinationss cause men to lose their fear of God. I didn't intend that you would think my example was about you. That's just an example of the phenomenon I chose.
 
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amadeus

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Isaiah 55.11...
"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."

Coming out of a dead mouth, there is no Life in a quoted scripture. Every man born of woman after Adam and Eve were put outside the Garden Gate, was born dead to God. Only when the Holy Spirit was involved in a person was there and is there any Life to be found in the written scriptures. Inspired when written by men as led by the Holy Spirit. Only by the same Holy Spirit will anything good come out of the Bible. This is why a person must be drawn by the Father before coming to Jesus. The drawing power of the Father is in the Holy Spirit.

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44

Without a Resurrection in us, there is no Life in us... ever!
 

VictoryinJesus

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Well as we know...

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." I Cor 14:33

Any other author is likely to be confused. That would include you, me and anyone else here when NOT led by the Holy Spirit. We see this issue come up clearly not less than twice in the OT... at tower Babel and in the Babylonian kingdom. But if we are always on God's side we'll be OK.

What is being taught is righteousness is less than Holy. So I’m thinking I must be seriously deceived and confused. Because if it is His righteousness one is to seek first and to establish God’s righteousness and not our own...how is His righteousness less or inferior to Holiness to where one rules over the other in the age to come?
 

Episkopos

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If I understood correctly, Epi says there is a difference in righteousness and holiness and that difference is being “led of the Spirit” or “in the Spirit” ...so are you “led” or “in” ...do you support righteousness is separate from Holiness in God? Do you support in the age to come that those Holy and “in” the Spirit will rule over those just righteous and “led” of the Spirit. I’m sorry...but it doesn’t line up. Can you show me how it lines up with what God has said?


If you could just be accurate and tell us at what age is a little Hindu girl damned to hell forever by obeying and honouring her parents? From birth? By age 12? Is she saved by dishonouring her parents and refusing to follow their religion?

please explain how you see the bible explaining things like this.

if you can't explain this then what is the point in discussing anything beyond Sunday school lessons?
 

VictoryinJesus

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If you could just be accurate and tell us at what age is a little Hindu girl damned to hell forever by obeying and honouring her parents?

please explain how you see the bible explaining things like this.

if you can't explain this then what is the point in discussing anything beyond Sunday school lessons?

Can you please provide the passage? Thanks.
 

Episkopos

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Can you please provide the passage? Thanks.

You are living in a paper bible...but I'm trying to wake you up into the real world. You don't yet understand the bible.

Can you say...indoctrination?

How many verses do you live in all day? Do you consult the bible in order to dress in the morning? What about food. Is peanut butter biblical? You must be very confused about these things.