The Problem With The Trinity

gadar perets · Sep 15, 2019

justbyfaith said:
1Ti 4:1, Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2, Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3, Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1Ti 4:4, For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Ti 4:5, For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
1Ti 4:6, If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

This is the word of God that sanctifies what was previously considered unclean:

The "word of God" that Timothy had access to was the Tanakh. Paul's letter to one person, Timothy, did not sanctify anything. Lev 11 & Deut 14 sanctifies food. Does "every creature" and "nothing to be refused" include eating humans?

Luk 11:41, But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you.

Click to expand...

So unclean spirits are clean to us?

It should also be clear that God did not institute food laws on Noah and his descendants (the food laws are only for the Jewish people outside of Christ):

Gen 9:3, Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

The distinction between clean and unclean animals existed in Noah's day. In fact, they existed from creation since Lev 11 identifies unclean animals based on how they were created (no cloven hoof, doesn't chew the cud, etc.).

"Every moving thing" must be qualified. If not, then it is saying we can eat humans. "Every moving thing that lives and is a clean animal shall be meat for you."

Your statement is in contradiction to the scripture that you had been addressing previous to it:

Rom 14:14, I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

I suppose that now you are going to try to say that nothing doesn't really mean nothing?

I guess you failed to read my post. The problem is the word "unclean". Your inerrant KJV wrote "unclean" where the Greek word "koinos" means "common". How strange that in almost every other use of koinos throughout the NT, the KJV translates it "common" except in Romans 14:14. How convenient of them in order to justify eating unclean meat.

justbyfaith · Sep 15, 2019

gadar perets said:
Does "every creature" and "nothing to be refused" include eating humans?

In extreme circumstances, yes. Of course eating humans is repulsive to us; and there is no need for a law to be existent for us to normally abhor the eating of humans. But in a situation a few years ago, people were trapped on a mountain and had no food; and in order to survive some of them ate the people who had died in the frozen temperatures of the mountain. And I am certainly not their judge; and neither are you.

gadar perets said:
So unclean spirits are clean to us?

Are spirits things? To me, a "thing" is a physical object.

Also, if anyone considers something to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

An unclean spirit that is not possessing someone is not unclean to me; it is not affecting anyone adversely.

gadar perets said:
The "word of God" that Timothy had access to was the Tanakh.

Luk 8:39, Return to thine own house, and shew how great things God hath done unto thee. And he went his way, and published throughout the whole city how great things Jesus had done unto him.

Act 10:37, That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

Act 13:49, And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

The word of the Lord being spoken of in Acts 10:37 and 13:49, is the gospels written by Matthew, Mark, and Luke (John was written later).

As such, Luke 11:41 was included in what Timothy would have held to be holy scripture.

For Timothy came on the scene at around Acts 16:1.

justbyfaith · Sep 15, 2019

Also, the word of the Lord is known to us now to be all of scripture (the closed canon of holy scripture).

If some of it wasn't written yet when Paul wrote 1 Timothy 4, it does not nullify the fact that other writings of Paul are holy scripture in the eternal scheme of things.

justbyfaith · Sep 15, 2019

gadar perets said:
Paul's letter to one person, Timothy, did not sanctify anything.

It is holy scripture according to 2 Peter 3:15-16. Therefore it is the word of God.

And the holy scripture declares that every creature is sanctified by the word of God and prayer; nothing is to be refused.

gadar perets · Sep 15, 2019

justbyfaith said:
In extreme circumstances, yes. Of course eating humans is repulsive to us; and there is no need for a law to be existent for us to normally abhor the eating of humans. But in a situation a few years ago, people were trapped on a mountain and had no food; and in order to survive some of them ate the people who had died in the frozen temperatures of the mountain. And I am certainly not their judge; and neither are you.

Paul was not referring to extreme starvation cases, but to daily life.

Also, if anyone considers something to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Still quoting the verse incorrectly. You refuse to be corrected.

gadar perets · Sep 15, 2019

You have yet to address all the Romans 14 verses I replied to.

justbyfaith · Sep 15, 2019

gadar perets said:
When the Scriptures say "all" it does not necessarily mean "all". For example, in 1Co 10:23, Paul said, "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not." Is Paul saying it is lawful for him to murder, steal, commit adultery and idolatry? Of course not.

He is saying that there is no more condemnation from the law for those who believe in Jesus Christ, even if they were to do such things. But, it is hypothetical; because those who believe in Jesus are new creatures in Him; the love of the Lord is shed abroad in our hearts; and therefore we would simply not do any of those things except in extreme circumstances.

justbyfaith · Sep 15, 2019

And Acts 10:14 (thank you for mentioning it) makes common and unclean synonyms of each other.

justbyfaith · Sep 15, 2019

gadar perets said:
Paul was not referring to extreme starvation cases, but to daily life.

In daily life, we might abhor the eating of other human beings, by nature. And there is nothing in scripture that defines humanity as an unclean animal (just telling it like it is). So then, in extreme circumstances, the eating of human flesh is permissible; and in circumstances that are not so extreme, we simply abhor the notion; and therefore how is anyone going to violate any law concerning human flesh being unclean (if such a law existed)? Not only is there none; but it is true that this is the case because we do not need a law dictating such behaviour. We abhor it in the natural.

justbyfaith · Sep 15, 2019

Now I believe that you have lost the debate.

I answered your contentions with the Romans 14 passage by declaring what is, biblically, all permissible food.

gadar perets · Sep 15, 2019

Ok. Enough. Your ears are shut, but your mouth isn't. Stay with your supposedly inerrant KJV and your doctrines of men. I will say a prayer for your enlightenment and move on.

Shalom.

justbyfaith · Sep 15, 2019

gadar perets said:
Ok. Enough. Your ears are shut, but your mouth isn't. Stay with your supposedly inerrant KJV and your doctrines of men. I will say a prayer for your enlightenment and move on.

Shalom.

Amen; and I will do the same for you.

shnarkle · Nov 18, 2019

JesusIsFaithful said:
Although there is a Triune God and that there are 3 Witnesses within the One God; the concept of the Trinity is not how God the Father wants us to worship Him by. And He will judge believers by this too.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

The Holy Spirit is sent to dwell within us to testify of the Son in glorifying the Son. Now how is He going to do that? Through us.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.14 He shall glorify me: .........

A witness cannot speak of himself in seeking his own glory or otherwise it is a false witness.

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Therefore the Holy Spirit will not speak of Himself through the believers in seeking His own glory for then that would mean there is unrighteousness in the Holy Spirit, but there is none.

It is when believers have been misled into thinking they are to honor & glorify the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son, but they do so not by the scripture nor by the Holy Spirit leading them to say this.

The errant Nicene creed introduced the unBiblical practice and believers need to narrow the way back to the straight gate in the wrship place and in fellowship and in prayer when coming to God the Father at all.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Please hear His words; the Son is the only way to honor & glorify God the Father by. That is what the Holy Spirit has been sent to lead us to do as dwelling within us.

John 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed...........

Paul stressed that focal point in worship to be on the Son.

Even in fellowship.

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

So God the Father is not honored by honoring the Holy Spirit nor the "Trinity", because the Holy Spirit and scripture is leading believers to do the Father's will by honoring & glorifying the Son and by doing so, we are honoring & glorifying God the Father. Jesus really is the only way to come to God the Father in anything in prayer, fellowship, and worship as those led by the Spirit of God & scripture shall do by His grace & by His help.

So ask Jesus for confirmation on how the Father wants you to only honor Him by today, and help to do His will by only honoring the Son in all things.

Essentially what all of this is pointing out is that one can only objectively worship God's image, but God's image isn't God. The Spirit indwelling within us allows us to see and worship who the image points to which is the father. This can only be accomplished by the power of the Spirit revealing these distinctions.

In other words, to worship Christ is to worship the image rather than God in the image. Another way of putting it would be to look at the window rather than looking through the window. Christ is the window, the gate, the door, etc. We have to walk through that door rather than simply admiring it.

It's actually more than that because we have to become window or doors ourselves. We have to let the image of God be seen through us as well. Christ calls us into that same relationship he has with the father through his spirit.

shnarkle · Nov 19, 2019

oldhermit said:
Would you agree that a discontinuity exists between the reality of God and man's perception of God that is compounded by the limitations of both the human mind and the human use of language?

Physicists have shown that there is a radical discontinuity between not just reality, but the interface of reality and our perceptions. We're only able to process the world conceptually, and the concepts simply are not reality.

Our thoughts are restricted and conformed to our language. We think according to the rules of the language we use.

oldhermit · Nov 20, 2019

That is absolutely true. Creation is so constructed that man has no actual contact with the natural world. The world only comes to us in a series of representations which are interpreted by the brain.

stunnedbygrace · Nov 20, 2019

JesusIsFaithful said:
Although there is a Triune God and that there are 3 Witnesses within the One God; the concept of the Trinity is not how God the Father wants us to worship Him by. And He will judge believers by this too.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

The Holy Spirit is sent to dwell within us to testify of the Son in glorifying the Son. Now how is He going to do that? Through us.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.14 He shall glorify me: .........

A witness cannot speak of himself in seeking his own glory or otherwise it is a false witness.

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Therefore the Holy Spirit will not speak of Himself through the believers in seeking His own glory for then that would mean there is unrighteousness in the Holy Spirit, but there is none.

It is when believers have been misled into thinking they are to honor & glorify the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son, but they do so not by the scripture nor by the Holy Spirit leading them to say this.

The errant Nicene creed introduced the unBiblical practice and believers need to narrow the way back to the straight gate in the wrship place and in fellowship and in prayer when coming to God the Father at all.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Please hear His words; the Son is the only way to honor & glorify God the Father by. That is what the Holy Spirit has been sent to lead us to do as dwelling within us.

John 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed...........

Paul stressed that focal point in worship to be on the Son.

Even in fellowship.

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

So God the Father is not honored by honoring the Holy Spirit nor the "Trinity", because the Holy Spirit and scripture is leading believers to do the Father's will by honoring & glorifying the Son and by doing so, we are honoring & glorifying God the Father. Jesus really is the only way to come to God the Father in anything in prayer, fellowship, and worship as those led by the Spirit of God & scripture shall do by His grace & by His help.

So ask Jesus for confirmation on how the Father wants you to only honor Him by today, and help to do His will by only honoring the Son in all things.

God is Spirit. So the Holy Spirit IS God.

shnarkle · Nov 20, 2019

stunnedbygrace said:
God is Spirit. So the Holy Spirit IS God.

One could just as easily say that it is God's spirit, therefore the spirit is divine.

shnarkle · Nov 20, 2019

oldhermit said:
That is absolutely true. Creation is so constructed that man has no actual contact with the natural world. The world only comes to us in a series of representations which are interpreted by the brain.

The human body comes into direct contact with the natural world. Man is contingent between the natural world and God. We are placed in this position of contingency in, with, through, and by Christ.

What you're pointing out is that humanity has introduced an additional mediator to reality, namely the intellect. This is superfluous due to the fact that the only mediator necessary is Christ. Instead of reflecting God, we reflect ourselves which only serves to separate us from God as well as the world.

Search

Search

The Problem With The Trinity

gadar perets

Well-Known Member

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member

gadar perets

Well-Known Member

gadar perets

Well-Known Member

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member

gadar perets

Well-Known Member

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member

shnarkle

Well-Known Member

shnarkle

Well-Known Member

oldhermit

Active Member

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member

shnarkle

Well-Known Member

shnarkle

Well-Known Member

Similar threads