"Feel free" to read that people can be unwilling to be saved but God will save them anyway.
When, where, or how was free will taken away?
- Thread starter atpollard
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Why don’t you go through Romans 8 and explain how it is all about God choosing those who obeyed the gospel. Given that premise, what is the “gospel” (because a salvation that depends on OUR act of obedience does not sound like good news).
Not “can be unwilling” but “are unwilling” ... “THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD” [Rom 3:11]
Well actually you should go through Romans 10 to establish that FACT.
And it is not "our act of obedience" but "obedience to the Gospel" (repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ -- Acts 20:21).
ROMANS 10
1. PAUL PRAYS FOR THE SALVATION OF ALL ISRAEL (NO UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION FOR SALVATION)
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2. THE JEWS HAVE A ZEAL BUT NOT ACCORDING TO THE GOSPEL
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3. THEY FORGET THAT GOD IMPUTES RIGHTEOUSNESS TO THE BELIEVER
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4. RIGHTEOUSNESS IS IMPUTED TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE ON CHRIST
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5. RIGHTEOUSNESS ACCORDING TO THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6. IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS IS BY FAITH IN GOD AND CHRIST
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above). 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead). 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
7. HERE IS HOW SINNERS ARE SAVED
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
8. THIS IS OBEDIENCE TO THE GOSPEL
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
9. SALVATION IS FOR ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION ("WHOSOEVER")
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
THE PREACHING OF THE GOSPEL IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
PREACHERS ARE SENT BY GOD TO PREACH THE GOSPEL
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
OBEDIENCE TO THE GOSPEL IS A CONSCIOUS DECISION (FREE WILL EVIDENT)
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
SAVING FAITH IS GENERATED BY THE GOSPEL (THE WORD OF GOD)
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
ISRAEL GENERALLY FAILED TO OBEY THE GOSPEL
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
Sorry, I don’t play scripture pong. I quoted Romans 8 and you made empty statements of opinion about Romans 8 that you have yet to support with exegesis of Romans 8.
Do you see how you have simply chosen to ignore Gospel truth as revealed in Romans 10 and explained with appropriate sub-titles?. Romans 8 cannot contradict Romans 10, and Romans 8 does NOT TEACH unconditional election for salvation. Neither does Romans 10.
Who is Paul quoting there?
I feel compelled to ask you if that includes you. Have you ever sought for God? Have you ever wished to abandon evil by repenting and then asking for guidance and help in becoming a better person? If so, did you find it impossible?
Some people seek for God for a while and expect immediate results. They lack staying power. Some may want to save their hides but are not really interested in becoming better people.
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We've been through this.
God is able to work our health problems for our good, somehow.
It may not even be apparent how till years later.
God can use any failure for our good... This is because we are children of God and Father will use evil for our good.
Also, if you notice, the first word in Romans 8.29 is FOREKNOW.
This speaks to How God saves those He foreknows to be saved...
NOT Who will be saved.
Dear Atpollard,,,,
YOURS are also opinions.
I exegeted Romans 8:28 for you (maybe it was Mj) but we could exegete all day long and it won't do any good because we are each set in our ways.
I also have repeatedly brought up the ECFs to you but you have no reply as to how THEY did not believe God chose persons arbitrarily.
Once we become born again we understand how much love God has for His number 1 creation. How could He possibly send many to hell if He loves us?
You say because we deserve it and He was nice enough to save some.
Then why not save all?
Why create us in the first place?
(as a reminder to you....Romans 8:28.....speaks of HOW one will be saved; NOT WHO)
God answers this question in scripture.
Does God save all?
Why does God save those that God saved?
What does God say about His reasons?
Actually, the ECFs LEARNED from the Apostles.
And they did believe in free will.
You do love Augustine, don't you?
The ONLY ECF that had any ideas re not having free will, and who changed his mind about concepts....great source since he seems to have started the whole calvinism thing going because Calvin DID read the ECFs,,,too bad some of them were gnostic.
So many errors in so short a post, I hardly know where to begin. Let’s start with this:
Which ECFs knew Apostles?
What is the Synod of Dort?
Almost missed this....
Here are your questions and my answer:
1. Does God save all?
A. No.
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Romans 3:23
Man is at enmity with God.
Genesis 3:15
Romans 8:7
Man does not understand God.
2 Corinthians 2:14
2. Why does God save those that God saved?
A. Because they have answered to God's calling and have accepted His conditions for salvation.
God planned a way for salvation:
God became man to redeem us from satan.
John 3:16
Romans 5:21
Romans 6:15-17
John 15:14
God gives us the choice to be children of God.
Galatians 3:26
John 1:12
Revelation 3:5
Revelation 3:20
Revelation 21:7
3. What does God say about His reasons?
A. This cannot be answered by me. I don't know that anyone, really, can answer this.
No particular order:
St. Clement of Rome (to 99 AD)
PAUL
PETER
St Ignatius of Antioch (to 107 AD)
PETER
JOHN
St. Polycarp (to 156 AD)
JOHN
These knew the Apostles directly....and others that were not so famous or had extensive writings.
Then there are those that come immediately after the Apostolic Fathers:
St. Justin Martyr
Saint Irenaeus
and more...
I'm not familiar with the synod of Dorf.
I completely agree with your answer and your understanding of those scriptures as supporting your answer.
Even if all of the verses referenced support your statements (and I have some doubts about those verses actually stating that God gave men the choice to be children of God), that answers HOW rather than WHY. Only God can explain WHY he does things, and in this case, we are fortunate that he does tell us WHY in His Word.
[Before you ask me to show you where ... I will not. If I show you, then you will simply argue with ME. If you find it for yourself, you may believe God.]
I know you don't agree with me...
but I do understand scripture and have studied it for many years.
You persist in telling me I'M WRONG, instead of saying you don't agree with me.
We won't know who's wrong till we get to heaven.
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