Philip James
Well-Known Member
Ah yes, i presume the destruction of the temple was surprising to many, as were Jesus words that care of the vineyard would be turned over to others...
Peace!
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Ah yes, i presume the destruction of the temple was surprising to many, as were Jesus words that care of the vineyard would be turned over to others...
Peace!
No. In fact Luke 22:23-26 refutes your belief.
No. The 'therefore' refers to Jesus having all power and all authority in heaven and in earth. The text you cite says nothing about giving the apostles all authority and power anywhere. The just were to live by faith...not in their own power, but in Christ's.
Yes, it is clear that they couldn't accomplish that alone. But the church did reach as far as China and south-east Asia within a few hundred years...not because the church had authority, but because Jesus kept His promise to be with them, and His authority and power worked on their behalf.
Precisely. It is because of Him, and His presence and Spirit in us that enables us and empowers us to overcome the world. It has nothing to do with any man lording it over others as a chosen one to name and shame others, then call for their execution if they don't surrender to the church's usurped authority.
Are you a do- it- yourself theologian? Do you have something that would like to share with the class?
The first do- it- yourself theologian who fancied himself a follower of Christ (Judas) was a scholar born of Sadducees' . Like men today, he thought he knew a better way than God. It would seem, that is the continuing trend- par for course, concerning the "scholars". And many take their doctrines hook, line and sinker like :"A priest in mortal sin can serve Christ"
.No one is denying the levels of designation. At least no educated person concerning scripture is. There is no issue with what you post concerning that. It is your understanding behind it and your unbalanced charge. Which by all reasonable standards, appears to be focused on hierarchy alone. If you are not a power or throne , you certainly like to stay close to it, regardless of who is sitting on it. Even when it is devoid of God's presents. You sound more like a lap dog than a person concerned with ALL designations.
There is no issue when those you deem to be an authority have NOT abused their power and positions. The reason for the offices you point out, is a matter of checks and balances. Just like our government. There needs to be a balance of power or people run amuck at the top. If that hierarchical system gets out of control, which is the case throughout the history of the RCC ,it is the duty of the other offices to CONFRONT them who stand condemned. And no man is above that!
What's you end game anyways? What role do you play in all this, concerning offices? So far I see no checks and balances being contributed to the body of Christ from you? So on whose behalf do you speak in here?
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ScottA
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I don't want to derail your discussion, but there is Christ's church, and then there is also the "I never knew you" would-be group who consider themselves to be His church and yet are not.
Carry on.
And you have confirmed my premise that it is very rare for any Catholic to recognise God's working anywhere other than in their own church...despite the abhorrent failings and crimes of the leaders thereof. The gates of hell haven't prevailed against HIS church. But they did prevail against Rome...in a very big way.
You know what apostasy means right? It means falling away...now you cannot fall away from something that doesn't exist. So there must have been at some time a favourable relationship before the apostasy. So how do you apply Jesus' words 'the gates of hell shall not prevail against His church' when a few short years later Paul declares prophetically that the church would indeed not only fall away, but become the Antichrist?
Now you are inventing a new parable that Jesus never made to avoid the fact that you have no grounds to bind me or any one else to a particular belief. Individualism has done perhaps as much damage to the entire reformation as the unbiblical "sola scriptura" premise. "ME, the Bible, and the Holy Spirit" as some kind of authority is an ideology THAT IS NOT IN THE BIBLE. I am sure you are correct most of the time, but you cannot bind others to what you claim to be revealed to you privately. We don't even give that much credit to our saints.
Philip James
Well-Known Member
Hello Scott,
Indeed.
You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!
Peace be with you!
I notice a trend with certain men in here. They speak as though the RCC is the only assembly, and with that- it is the ONLY assembly which is Christ's church??? So I am going to L.A.R.P and go along for a bit. Based on this train of thought, then the Letters to the Churches all pertain to this ONE group?They are then in a HEAP of trouble! They are guilty of everything written in the Letters and the whole book of the Revelation and the Harlot church is all about this ONE assembly. That would mean every CHARGE against the Harlot and every bad Church action mentioned in Revelation is directly about this assembly. But there are TWO letters with NO Faults, so which one of those could apply to this assembly? They can not be Two good churches when they are one assembly?
BAAAACK TOOOO REALITTTTTY. You are clearly not the ONLY assembly-church. So get off your high horse and start coming in meek and humble on a donkey.
BAAAACK TOOOO REALITTTTTY. You are clearly not the ONLY assembly-church. So get off your high horse and start coming in meek and humble on a donkey.
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Philip James
Well-Known Member
Those who fall away are these:
They went out from us, but they were not really of our number;
if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.
You do not know me very well if you think that of me.
God can work anywhere He chooses in whatever manner He chooses.. And all things work for the good of those who love Him.
Those who are not against us are with us...
Peace!
In prophecy, women represent churches. The harlot of Revelation, an apostate church...the chaste woman of Revelation 12, the true church. This paradigm of imagery is found throughout scripture, in both testaments. We, the church, are told not to love the world. John tells us that if we love the world, the love of the Father is not in us. God alone is to be our "Husband". If we engage in any activity or relationship that raises others as rulers over us other than Christ, or that uses worldly rulers in a way that instills their authority over other believers, that is termed as spiritual adultery, and Israel was guilty of this on many occasions. The whore of Babylon in Revelations is described as being guilty of this.
1 ¶ And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
This metaphorical language speaks of a church who has fallen away (apostatised) and is now in an illicit relationship with the kings and rulers of this world in a way that dishonours Christ, as those kings and rulers are used in ways that denies Christ's power and authority in the religious life. How can the Papacy, which took on the mantle of civil power in Rome in place of the empirical government, not be guilty and not be identified as this adulterous whore whose relationships with kings and queens and worldly rulers epitomises Papal history?
Romans 11:1-36
The Remnant of Israel
1I ask then, did God reject His people? Certainly not! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says about Elijah, how he appealed to God against Israel: 3“Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars.( For anyone who has a problem with altars and didn't know they have been a part of worship FOR A VERY LONG LONG TIME).
I am the only one left, and they are seeking my life as well”?
4And what was the divine reply to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.
7What then? What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see,
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”
9And David says:
“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”
The Ingrafting of the Gentiles
11I ask then, did they stumble so as to lose their share?f Certainly not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. 12But if their trespass means riches for the world, and their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
13I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14in the hope that I may provoke my own people to jealousy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the first part of the dough is holy, so is the whole batch; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either.
22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
All Israel Shall Be Saved
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come from Zion;
He will remove godlessness from Jacob.
27And this is My covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. 29For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.
30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 32For God has consigned all men to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all.
A Hymn of Praisehttps://biblehub.com/bsb/jude/1.htm#24
33O, the depth of the riches
of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable His judgments,
and untraceable His ways!
34“Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been His counselor?”
35“Who has first given to God,
that God should repay him?”i
36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
To Him be the glory forever! Amen.
The Remnant of Israel
1I ask then, did God reject His people? Certainly not! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says about Elijah, how he appealed to God against Israel: 3“Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars.( For anyone who has a problem with altars and didn't know they have been a part of worship FOR A VERY LONG LONG TIME
).I am the only one left, and they are seeking my life as well”?
4And what was the divine reply to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.
7What then? What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see,
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”
9And David says:
“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”
The Ingrafting of the Gentiles
11I ask then, did they stumble so as to lose their share?f Certainly not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. 12But if their trespass means riches for the world, and their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
13I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14in the hope that I may provoke my own people to jealousy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the first part of the dough is holy, so is the whole batch; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either.
22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
All Israel Shall Be Saved
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come from Zion;
He will remove godlessness from Jacob.
27And this is My covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. 29For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.
30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 32For God has consigned all men to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all.
A Hymn of Praisehttps://biblehub.com/bsb/jude/1.htm#24
33O, the depth of the riches
of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable His judgments,
and untraceable His ways!
34“Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been His counselor?”
35“Who has first given to God,
that God should repay him?”i
36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
To Him be the glory forever! Amen.
Yet God's people are found there, so the commandment to come out of her. What physical church is perfect? Don't we all start off in churches that are imperfect one way or another?
Philip James
Well-Known Member
Dear brakelight,
The people of Rome asked their bishop to rule (civily) over them when the Empires authority melted away...
It was the kings of Europe, who freely submitted themselves to Christ through His Church...and they prospered!
And Christendom grew and took the gospel to the ends of the Earth, and it reigned for 1000 years with an iron rod...
The false church is the one that supports goverments without Jesus as their king...
There is yet one great Christian monarch (albeit estranged from Rome) and her heir has publicly stated he will take the title 'defender of faiths' in place of 'defender of the Faith'
God save the Queen!
To know who Babylon is, I suggest a prayerful study of Habbukuk and Jer 50 and 51.
Peace!
For the fourth time, a priest in mortal sin can serve Christ, like the woman who dried His feet with her hair, if he repents. If he does not repent, he gets defrocked by the Church, after guilt is determined by the courts, not Newsweek or the National Enquirer. 99.997% of priests since the last study was done have no legal allegations against them. Any sane person would want it to be 100%. Unfortunately, public opinion is formed by main stream media, who is at war with the Church. The anti-priest drumbeat on this thread is in step with a whole culture that despises her.Are you a do- it- yourself theologian? Do you have something that would like to share with the class?
The first do- it- yourself theologian who fancied himself a follower of Christ (Judas) was a scholar born of Sadducees' . Like men today, he thought he knew a better way than God. It would seem, that is the continuing trend- par for course, concerning the "scholars". And many take their doctrines hook, line and sinker like :"A priest in mortal sin can serve Christ"
I only defend the hierarchical nature of the Church WHEN IT IS DENIED.
A bad pope, or all ten of them, does not disprove the doctrine of the papacy. Yes, sometimes the hierarchical system got out of control, but the gates of Hades have not prevailed, and never will. Satan tried to kill the Church by killing 40 of the first leaders. Well, that didn't work so he is using other tricks. You either believe the Bible where it says the Church is infallible and indefectible, or you don't. Either you have the faith needed to believe that God would protect His Church, even in times of corruption, or you don't.
I am in love with Jesus who is intricately united with the Church He founded. When I use the word "Church", that includes you.
The "I never knew you" group talked to look good, but ignored the biblical Works of Mercy.
none of this is possible without the grace of Christ!
carry on.
ScottA
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And you have invented me inventing a parable...which is a cool compliment, but proves nothing except that you don't have the capacity for simple reasoning on the level that Christ himself used.
Otherwise...it sounds like you have an ax to grind. I do not.
And if they didn't "freely" submit, their entire nation was placed under interdict which brought the entire population into great of eternal damnation with no opportunity of repentance except to submit in humiliating fashion to the tyrant presiding over a corrupt cult. Otherwise, yeah, they did great. Philip of Spain for example... Spent the nation's entire treasury and set forth with numerous priest,and papal blessings and hangers on in the name of God to bring Britain " back to Jesus"... Sorry no, back to Rome. Guess we all know what God thought of that idea.
Jesus used every day things with analogies and metaphors to clarify His teachings. To claim that Jesus used the same reasoning as you, by twisting scripture to support a false presupposition, is dishonest and an insult to His parables.
I don't read scripture with an axe. Anti-authority, anti-priest, and anti-hierarchy is anti-biblical.
"ME, the Bible and Holy Spirit" mentality as authoritive is not authoritive at all. It is dangerous, it invites division. Such people are theologically undereducated, full of pride, and have no business binding anyone to a particular belief.
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