Purpose of the Millennium

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Mal'ak

Member
Jan 15, 2019
75
45
18
40
Cedar City
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Have we today ceased from our works in Christ Jesus? No, not yet. We will when Jesus returns.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Christians will be doing works for the entire thousand years of Jesus' reign, as we are told we will rule with Jesus as "priests", and as we all know priests preaching the Word of God. What most do not understand, is that not every good person was given the gift of faith and others wasted it. There are those that died as children, then there are those that died having lived in the Congo and never even heard about Jesus. Lots of people for on reason or another was not able to be Christians in this life, but that does not mean they are going to the Lake of Fire. Which is why in verse 5 we see that the "dead", which are those that were not gathered by Jesus as his elect, will "lived not again until the thousand years were finished". So we are told the non-elect still have a chance to live after the thousand years, but the only way that can happen is if there are people teaching them, which is why the elect are said to rule as "priests" because they will be the one's teaching. Then satan will be released and he will tempt/test all those that the elect have been teaching for a thousand years, then the "dead" will decide to follow satan to attack Jesus or to stand with Jesus.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Davy and Heart2Soul

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,044
919
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
The prophets make no such claim. That is your fantasy about what will happen.
You objections are over-ruled by the Bible prophets:
Ezekiel 11:15-20 The whole people of Israel [the 10 tribes] to whom Judah [the Jews] have said: The Land is now ours to possess. The Lord says: When I sent Israel far away around the world, for a while I was their protector and blessed them wherever they lived. I shall gather My people from their dispersion and give the Land of Israel to them. I will remove their hearts of stone and put a new spirit in them. They will be My people and I will be their God.

This prophecy says how the Jews believe the holy Land is their possession. But the Lord will give it to His righteous Christian people, the people Jesus came to save; Matthew 15:24, the peoples who have been blessed with prosperity and strength. They will be joined by born again Christians from every race, nation and language. Isaiah 56:1-8, Revelation 5:9-10
THEY are the new owners as Jeremiah 8:10, Isaiah 65:9, Romans 9:24-26, +, plainly tell us. Christians will occupy all of the holy Land, they are seen there in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7

This will happen soon after the forthcoming Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath:

Ezekiel 20:34 By My outpoured wrath, I shall bring you out from the nations and gather you from wherever you are dispersed.
Isaiah 41:8-10 Have no fear, My people - the descendants of My friend, Abraham. Galatians 3:29 I have not rejected you, now I summon you from the four corners of the earth; I am with you and will give you strength.

Only those whom God knows are actual Christian Israelites, Amos 9:9, will be allowed to enter the holy Land:

Ezekiel 20:35-38 I shall bring you out of the nations and I shall state My case against you. I shall make you pass under the Rod of Judgement. Just as I did in the wilderness of Egypt, so I shall indict you. I will count you as you enter, but those who revolt and rebel, I shall take them from the lands where they now live, but they will not set foot in the holy Land. Thus you will know I am the Lord.

These are plainly stated prophesies, not yet fulfilled, but surely will be.
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,523
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Only those whom God knows are actual Christian Israelites, Amos 9:9, will be allowed to enter the holy Land:

Now how can you make the quoted claim based on Amos_9:9?

Amos 9:8-10: - 8 "Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are on the sinful kingdom,
And I will destroy it from the face of the ground;
Yet I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob,"
Says the Lord.

9 "For surely I will command,
And will sift the house of Israel among all nations,
As grain is sifted in a sieve;
Yet not the smallest grain shall fall to the ground.
10 All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword,
Who say, 'The calamity shall not overtake nor confront us.'
Your reference passage as quoted above does not support your claim.

Your first passage translation is also questionable with your statement: - You objections are over-ruled by the Bible prophets.

This is how I understand the translation should read: -

Ezekiel_11:14-21: God Will Restore Israel

14 Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 15 "Son of man, your brethren, your relatives, your countrymen, and all the house of Israel in its entirety, are those about whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, 'Get far away from the Lord; this land/earth has been given to us as a possession.' 16 Therefore say, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Although I have cast them far off among the Gentiles, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet I shall be a little sanctuary for them in the countries where they have gone."' 17 Therefore say, 'Thus says the Lord God: "I will gather you from the peoples, assemble you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land/fertile field of Israel."' 18 And they will go there/come together, and they will take away/remove all its/the detestable things and all its/the abominations from there/amongst them. 19 Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God. 21 But as for those whose hearts follow the desire for their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their deeds on their own heads," says the Lord God.
But you will blow my paraphrase off as the imagination of a mad man because only your understanding and theories are correct. However, the idol of the Land that you worship has long been removed from the table and God is wanting the Israelites to inherit the whole earth, God's Earth. Not a puny little bit of the land of Canaan as you keep tellin us. Now what Interlinear scripture site do you make such poor use of? Do you mind enlightening us as to which site we should use?

I look forward to your revelation as to the most appropriate interlinear scripture site we all should use.

Shalom
 
Last edited:

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,581
7,857
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Your question isn't really aligned with the Scripture you posted. The "times of refreshing" and "times of restitution of all things" is about the future when Jesus returns. There will be a 2nd coming of Christ back to this earth, ya know. It is written.

Ok. I’m ready for the refreshing and the restitution os all things. Kind of worn down and don’t feel too refreshed. That why I asked ...is it supposed to be now or what is to come. Thanks.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Ok. I’m ready for the refreshing and the restitution os all things. Kind of worn down and don’t feel too refreshed. That why I asked ...is it supposed to be now or what is to come. Thanks.

The main thing, like our Lord Jesus forewarned, is to not allow any man to deceive us (Matthew 24:4; 2 Corinthians 11:13; Ephesians 4:14; Ephesians 5:6-7; Col. 2:8; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4). Deception is the main danger for these last days leading all the way up to our Lord Jesus' return.

The doctrines of men are designed to lead us astray from what is written in God's Holy Writ. The test upon those in Christ Jesus is to see who we will listen to, God in His Holy Writ, or instead listen to men's doctrines. Like the Bereans of Acts 17, we are to check our teachers out in God's Word for ourselves. The only way to do that is to get down to Bible study for ourselves, chapter by chapter, line upon line, while asking God's help in it by The Holy Spirit.

The Bible seminaries don't teach preachers to cover all of God's Word chapter by chapter, line upon line in the Churches. Someone asked me one time why they didn't and I told him to ask his Sunday school teacher. His Sunday school teacher laughed at him, and said something like he must think they had all the time in the world. Truth is, it doesn't take a lifetime to cover all The Bible line upon line, it just may seem like it to those kind of folks who don't think they have the time. The lesson is, you're just not going to get that kind of teaching in most Churches today. What you get instead is a couple of verses here and there, and then an hour of preaching on it, often leaving the actual context and flow of the whole chapter.

Bottom line is, you either have to rely on one of those preachers, and they do mean well, because their job is really to preach The Gospel to those who haven't heard. But a real pastor per God's Word is one who feeds His sheep, which is where the idea of a pastor comes from. And it means to pastor the sheep in all... of God's Word, not with fragments like the twelve baskets of fragments the disciples gathered up (Matthew 16:5-12).

God has given us some good Bible scholars of the past to help us in our Bible study. The basic tools are a 1611 KJV Bible and a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance which is based on the KJV, giving definitions of every word and phrase from the manuscripts. The Treasury of Scripture Knowledge is a great cross-reference tool, giving you look-ups of Scripture topics as they appear in other Bible Books. These tools and more can be gotten in simple software like Biblesoft. You can go to their website at Biblesoft.com and purchase it which will include many more tools. But these I mention here are the basic ones. I only suggest one other as a minimum, a Brown-Driver-Briggs lexicon dictionary, which is especially helpful with translation of Old Testament names and places. Oft times more is revealed once the name of a place or person is translated.
 

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,044
919
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
I look forward to your revelation as to the most appropriated interlinear scripture site we all should us.
Be nice if you wrote in English!
Now how can you make the quoted claim based on Amos_9:9?
Obviously, from the Ezekiel 11 quote, that Israelites are not just Jews. In fact they are every faithful Christian, the Overcomers for God; His true Israelite people. And God does have a secret: who and where are the ten Northern tribes of Israel? The answer to that is obvious; they are the ones Jesus came to save; Matthew 15:24 and are now Christians!

Jay, there is no gain to be had by getting hot under the collar. We must try to rationally and sensibly understand what the Lord has planned for His people. It IS for our good and it will be good to live in all of the holy Land; from the Nile to the Euphrates, under the Lord's protection and Blessings, while the rest of the worlds people will belong to the One World Govt.
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,523
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Jay, there is no gain to be had by getting hot under the collar. We must try to rationally and sensibly understand what the Lord has planned for His people. It IS for our good and it will be good to live in all of the holy Land; from the Nile to the Euphrates, under the Lord's protection and Blessings, while the rest of the worlds people will belong to the One World Govt.

First off, I am not getting hot under the collar as you have stated. What saddens me is your belief that your understanding of the Prophets is correct.

Even when a better understanding of what the Hebrew text is presented to you, you ignore it and just keep repeating the same old lies based on your theories that the Promised land is still on the table. But the "Promised land" was taken off of the table in 70 AD with no promise of it ever being a suitable place of residency for Israel every again during the age of the ages.

Yes, some of Abraham's descendants returned to the Land of Canaan in their own strength in 1948, but their occupation of the land has been tenuous and challenged by those who are living around Israel today. They are still worshipping the idol of the promised land. They have not repented of their idolatrous worship. Jesus told them in Luke 14 that they would not have the means to rebuild the temple and that they would look foolish and cause all of the nations of the world to come up against Israel to put an end to the nation of Israel.

Even in what I quoted from your previous post, you deny the Summer harvest of souls during the Millennium Age when Christ rules as priest from Heaven with those that have already lost their heads for 1,000 years.

Christ warns us against trying to save our souls and tells us that those that do try will lose their lives and have no rest.

You post, tells us which camp you are in.

Shalom
 

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,048
785
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
And what age might that be? The one before sin entered the world? Because, if you look at the verses that speak of 'this age', we can see it covers an age of sin, of Satan 'ruling' over it, of material rewards, of false philosphy and wisdom of man, of marriage. And these things have been present since the fall of mankind.
Now, we might, I suppose, for the sake of study or conversation, break up 'this age' into smaller sections; like Pre-Christ, Post-Christ for example. But that doesn't seem to touch upon those essential facts the bible lists as 'this age'. And as for 'the age before'...well, I'm sure it was amazing, sin free in the garden. But that time doesn't really impinge upon us apart from informing us of how mankind fell and set Gods plan of redemption on track. And it most certainly doesn't give us leave to insert an extra 'age' inbetween 'this age' and 'the age to come'.

Nope the one before satan sinned.

TABLE OF CONTENTS
The World That Was, The First Earth Age
Should help you,if not no worries.........
 

Waiting on him

Well-Known Member
Dec 21, 2018
11,674
6,096
113
56
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This guy you reference should read psalm 19 and meditate on it for a while.

I think the guy did a great job explaining what God showed His faithful in His Holy Writ.

The problem with those who don't understand it is that they are too sunken into men's traditions of this world, and their mind is in chains, like our Lord Jesus pointed to with those not given eyes to see, and ears to hear.
 
  • Like
Reactions: n2thelight

Naomi25

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2016
3,199
1,801
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Hebrews 11:3 KJV
[3] Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Ephesians 3:21 KJV
[21] Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.


Tecarta Bible
Tecarta Bible

I'm sorry....I'm not sure I follow your point with these particular verses....
 

Naomi25

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2016
3,199
1,801
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia

The first age is certainly an interesting topic of discussion. But, I'm not sure it actually impinges on this topic in any meaningful way. What is done, is done, and clearly there is no going back and changing it. The conversation is about what is future and what the bible says about it. I think the bible, when talking about the 'future' speaks of 'this age', which we must include because we are still in it, and 'the age to come' which is the real one of interest.
But I suppose, even given the 'first age', there still doesn't leave any room for this 'millennial' age...a strange hybrid sort of age which is stuck between heaven and earth; sharing some qualities of both, but not really fully embracing or ridding the best or worst of the new or old.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The first age is certainly an interesting topic of discussion. But, I'm not sure it actually impinges on this topic in any meaningful way. What is done, is done, and clearly there is no going back and changing it. The conversation is about what is future and what the bible says about it. I think the bible, when talking about the 'future' speaks of 'this age', which we must include because we are still in it, and 'the age to come' which is the real one of interest.
But I suppose, even given the 'first age', there still doesn't leave any room for this 'millennial' age...a strange hybrid sort of age which is stuck between heaven and earth; sharing some qualities of both, but not really fully embracing or ridding the best or worst of the new or old.

That's the wrong thinking. Christ's future Millennial reign and the new heavens and a new earth has everything to do with that old world of the past which God destroyed because of Satan's rebellion. Revelation and Genesis have direct parallels.

Even though Genesis 1 doesn't specifically show Satan's original rebellion, that's what the state of the earth at Genesis 1:2 was about. In Revelation 12:3-4 we are shown about that old time of rebellion when he drew a third of the angels ("stars") to earth with him. Even for those who don't understand about the first world age, it's easy to know Satan's original rebellion happened before Adam and Eve. In Revelation 13 we are shown about Satan's world kingdom in final on earth for the end, which is still future to us today. Hebrews 2 shows us the power of death was assigned to Satan, and that the lake of fire has already been prepared for the devil and his angels (Matt.25:41). In Genesis death was assigned to man, in Revelation death is destroyed in final. In Genesis 2 God's River and His Garden are shown on earth, in Revelation it shows a return. Many parallels.

What this means is, the more you understand what happened back in that past, the better you will understand what is prophesied for the future. So it's very much like the old saying, those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it, and also as in Ecclesiastes, for there is no new thing under the sun.
 

Naomi25

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2016
3,199
1,801
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
That's the wrong thinking. Christ's future Millennial reign and the new heavens and a new earth has everything to do with that old world of the past which God destroyed because of Satan's rebellion. Revelation and Genesis have direct parallels.

Even though Genesis 1 doesn't specifically show Satan's original rebellion, that's what the state of the earth at Genesis 1:2 was about. In Revelation 12:3-4 we are shown about that old time of rebellion when he drew a third of the angels ("stars") to earth with him. Even for those who don't understand about the first world age, it's easy to know Satan's original rebellion happened before Adam and Eve. In Revelation 13 we are shown about Satan's world kingdom in final on earth for the end, which is still future to us today. Hebrews 2 shows us the power of death was assigned to Satan, and that the lake of fire has already been prepared for the devil and his angels (Matt.25:41). In Genesis death was assigned to man, in Revelation death is destroyed in final. In Genesis 2 God's River and His Garden are shown on earth, in Revelation it shows a return. Many parallels.

What this means is, the more you understand what happened back in that past, the better you will understand what is prophesied for the future. So it's very much like the old saying, those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it, and also as in Ecclesiastes, for there is no new thing under the sun.

The problem, as I see it, with the idea of 'understanding the past to understand the future' is that speculation is relied upon more than scripture.
Yes, Genesis tells us that Satan was present before Adam and Eve fell, but it doesn't go into how long or what this looked like in any sort of way. All we know for sure is that before Satan stuck his nose into garden business, Adam and Eve dwelt in the garden in the presence of God without sin.
When it comes to a Millennial reign of Christ apon the earth it requires such a hodge podge of ideas that I just cannot see where and how it is knitted together from scripture.
There will be some living in glorified bodies and some who are not. But, I can't see how this will be, as scripture tells us when Christ returns he will raise the dead and judge the living. That sort of deals with everyone; no one will be getting past the event of Christ's return without judgement which then sees them moving on to the body that will see them through their eternal life.
We also see, apparently, in this Millennial Kingdom, things being made new. Except, there will still be the influence of those who can sin. How can these things be together, when the brokeness of the world is a reflection of the sin that exists here?
We have Jesus Christ himself ruling and reigning with a rod of iron and perfect love and justice. And yet people still rebel and revolt in another grand battle. It's like one armeggedon wasn't enough, we need to 'go around' again.
People seem to be given another chance to come to Christ...and that's after the second chance after the Rapture. How many chances do we get? I was under the impression the bible says we ought to be in Christ when he showed up...full stop.
And none of that even touches on the blasphemous nature of the rebuilt temple and sacrifices nonsense. That's in a whole category by itself.

My point is: plucking threads of what was; from Genesis and even from Revelation, does not flesh out a decent enough picture to then put down money on what is coming. Especially when there does not seem to be any biblical evidence for a mirror image of what happened then to be repeated on the end of history. What we DO see in scripture about what is coming, lends itself away from an earthly reign where some people are saved and glorified and others are not. Where the earth is somewhat glorified as well but not all the way to 'the new earth'. Where people have the chance to be saved or to rebel yet again. There is simply no picture drawn of this. And yet this is what people consistently try and push.
 

Earburner

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2019
6,467
1,539
113
74
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This shows your desire to denigrate and abuse anyone who contradicts you.
Accusing me of not knowing any of the ancient texts, is not right. I don't claim to be an expert, but I do have some understanding and I make good use of the Interlinear Scripture site.

It isn't me that is 'right', it is the Prophets. They wrote very detailed accounts of history in advance. Some as an allegory, but most as a literal story of future events. Even the allegories can be explained literally from other Bible passages.

This idea is not what the Prophetic Word tells us will happen during the end times.
Revelation 21:27 is quite clear how there will always be some ungodly people.
27 and there shall in no wise enter into it anything unclean, or he that maketh an abomination and a lie: but only they that are written in the Lamb's book of life.
> Of course there won't be anything that is corruption or corruptible to enter in, there will be NONE left to do so!! Only those who are "born again" are His! All else are "none of His". Romans 8:9
 

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,044
919
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Of course there won't be anything that is corruption or corruptible to enter in, there will be NONE left to do so!!
Why do you feel the need to contradict Bible verses?
I told you that Revelation 21:27 mentions the ungodly people still around after the Millennium. They won't enter the holy City, sure; but they still exist. Why, only God knows and your ideas on this subject have zero value.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The problem, as I see it, with the idea of 'understanding the past to understand the future' is that speculation is relied upon more than scripture.

That's an assumption many make because they are more used to listening to men instead of God in His Word by The Holy Spirit. You want to talk about speculation, attend 10 different Churches today and you'll get an ear full in 8 of them, a preaching on one or two Bible verses taken completely out of the context of the Chapter where they are written. God's Word is to be taught and understood line upon line, chapter by chapter, that so you get the flow in our minds and not just a reliance on what the preacher says.

God uses allegory and metaphor to teach with in His Word. So any Christian who doesn't understand how that works and deems it as speculation shows they have missed another level of God's teaching in His Word. Those allegories and metaphors are not speculation, they are tools. Our Heavenly Father uses them to make it easier to understand, not more difficult. But the Bible student must first pay attention to them.

The below is an allegory, not speculation. God uses the title of the king of Tyrus (ancient Tyre), but that's not really who He is pointing this to...

Ezek 28:11-19
11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, "Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.


Those statements in red should immediately get the attention of the true Christian Bible student. When was the flesh historical king of Tyrus ever in God's Garden of Eden? He never was, but Satan was. Whenever was the king of Tyrus 'an anointed cherub that covereth"? The flesh king of Tyrus never was, but that is what Satan was before he rebelled in the time of old. The stones of fire refer to God's Altar in Heaven, the flesh king of Tyrus never was at that Altar.

So is God speaking of the flesh king of Tyrus like verse 12 states, or is He using allegory talking about Satan?

Even some Bible scholars tread too carefully with that allegory about Satan, and are afraid to mention that it might point to Satan. They will instead 'speculate', and compare all that to the flesh king of Tyre of how he exalted himself like God, doing those things. But comparing the flesh king to a cherub guarding the Mercy Seat that was in God's Garden of Eden is speculating too far when thinking that's about some flesh king.

Ezek.28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
KJV

The above shows God has already judged and sentenced that one to the future lake of fire. What flesh man today has already been judged and sentenced to perdition into the future "lake of fire" at the end of Revelation 20? NO... flesh man has, not as of yet. Not even Judas Iscariot has been judged and sentenced yet! But Satan and his angels already have. Is that 'speculation' then? No, of course not. It is understanding our Heavenly Father in His Word. Just because someone doesn't see that yet doesn't mean it is speculation.

You should look at the Ezekiel 31 allegory, it's even more telling, for those given to understand it. And the allegory in Isaiah 14 about Satan is also easy.


 
  • Like
Reactions: Heart2Soul

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
My point is: plucking threads of what was; from Genesis and even from Revelation, does not flesh out a decent enough picture to then put down money on what is coming. Especially when there does not seem to be any biblical evidence for a mirror image of what happened then to be repeated on the end of history. What we DO see in scripture about what is coming, lends itself away from an earthly reign where some people are saved and glorified and others are not. Where the earth is somewhat glorified as well but not all the way to 'the new earth'. Where people have the chance to be saved or to rebel yet again. There is simply no picture drawn of this. And yet this is what people consistently try and push.

And I say, you don't realize how misguided you are with that thinking.

Isa 21:9
9 And, behold, here cometh a chariot of men, with a couple of horsemen. And he answered and said,
"Babylon is fallen, is fallen"; and all the graven images of her gods he hath broken unto the ground.
KJV

Rev 14:8
8 And there followed another angel, saying,
"Babylon is fallen, is fallen", that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
KJV


Notice that Revelation 14:8 quotes the exact phrase, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen" that was said back in the days of Isaiah the prophet when historical Babylon fell.

Is that just a coincidence? Hardly.

That is to let us know that God is using the 'past'... to show things yet to happen in the 'future'. The old Babylon history serves as a blueprint for the future, even things yet in OUR future.

Now what was it you were saying about there being no relationship between the past and future prophecy?
 

Naomi25

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2016
3,199
1,801
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
That's an assumption many make because they are more used to listening to men instead of God in His Word by The Holy Spirit. You want to talk about speculation, attend 10 different Churches today and you'll get an ear full in 8 of them, a preaching on one or two Bible verses taken completely out of the context of the Chapter where they are written. God's Word is to be taught and understood line upon line, chapter by chapter, that so you get the flow in our minds and not just a reliance on what the preacher says.
Who's making assumptions now? I don't attend 10 different churches, so I couldn't very well be espousing 'out of context' doctrines by them, could I?
In point of fact, if you read back, all I'm saying is that trying to build a picture of what the earth will be like at Christ's return based solely upon what scripture says about life pre-garden fall....good luck with getting much detail on that. Hence, people end up leaning on speculation. We have a few hints and references, but not enough to flesh out any sort of real doctrine; for back then, and certainly not for 'mirroring' it forward.

God uses allegory and metaphor to teach with in His Word. So any Christian who doesn't understand how that works and deems it as speculation shows they have missed another level of God's teaching in His Word. Those allegories and metaphors are not speculation, they are tools. Our Heavenly Father uses them to make it easier to understand, not more difficult. But the Bible student must first pay attention to them.

The below is an allegory, not speculation. God uses the title of the king of Tyrus (ancient Tyre), but that's not really who He is pointing this to...

Ezek 28:11-19
11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, "Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.


Those statements in red should immediately get the attention of the true Christian Bible student. When was the flesh historical king of Tyrus ever in God's Garden of Eden? He never was, but Satan was. Whenever was the king of Tyrus 'an anointed cherub that covereth"? The flesh king of Tyrus never was, but that is what Satan was before he rebelled in the time of old. The stones of fire refer to God's Altar in Heaven, the flesh king of Tyrus never was at that Altar.

So is God speaking of the flesh king of Tyrus like verse 12 states, or is He using allegory talking about Satan?

Even some Bible scholars tread too carefully with that allegory about Satan, and are afraid to mention that it might point to Satan. They will instead 'speculate', and compare all that to the flesh king of Tyre of how he exalted himself like God, doing those things. But comparing the flesh king to a cherub guarding the Mercy Seat that was in God's Garden of Eden is speculating too far when thinking that's about some flesh king.

Ezek.28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
KJV

The above shows God has already judged and sentenced that one to the future lake of fire. What flesh man today has already been judged and sentenced to perdition into the future "lake of fire" at the end of Revelation 20? NO... flesh man has, not as of yet. Not even Judas Iscariot has been judged and sentenced yet! But Satan and his angels already have. Is that 'speculation' then? No, of course not. It is understanding our Heavenly Father in His Word. Just because someone doesn't see that yet doesn't mean it is speculation.

You should look at the Ezekiel 31 allegory, it's even more telling, for those given to understand it. And the allegory in Isaiah 14 about Satan is also easy.

Again, if you had taken note of what I was referring to, it was the time period BEFORE the fall in the garden. That was the period bought up, anyway.
As for the time period AFTER the fall, I have never, ever denied that God uses allegory or metaphor...in fact, of the many people on this forum, I'm often the one accused of using them too often.
The problem with metaphor and allegory, however, is that one mustn't sling them around willy nilly. And even when used, they still must be used in context.
Consider the example you gave above with Tyre. It sounds very much like it could be talking of the fall of Satan. And in part I suspect that is where it deliberately pulls our mind. It wants us to use that comparison...but it is still very much talking about the fall of a city. Because while it calls on us to make the comparison between the fall of a once great, mighty and beauty angel and an echoing city, it still leads us, at the end of the passage, to where we must abandon the imagry of Satan and land entirely where a fallen city must go. Satan has not yet been exposed before Kings or consumed by fire and turned to ashes by all who witnessed it. That did happen to Tyre. And thus through the clever use of imagry we see that, like Satan, having everything; wealth, success, beauty and power...can not and will not save us if we turn from God. In the end only death, devestation and ruin will come. Like is in store for Satan.
So...does the passage refer to Satan? Perhaps. Can we use that passage to determine what Satan was like pre-fall and therefore come to some conclusions of what the future post-parousia will be like? No.
The OT is full of type and shadow metaphor and imagry, this is absolutely true. But I still feel strongly that these types and shadows will only point to two things: the coming of Christ the first time, and then his second coming that ushers in that 'age to come', where all things are made new.