Divorcement? dead to the Law by the body of Christ?

VictoryinJesus said:

Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: [15] And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Why are the Jews not included in “my brethren, you also are become dead to the Law by the body of Christ ...that we bring forth fruit unto God.” And “then were all dead...that they should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.”

Why are the Jews not included...did He not die for all and all were dead by the body of Christ...that they should not hereforth live unto themselves but bring forth fruit unto God?

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Not sure I understand your question.

Much love!

VictoryinJesus said:

Are the Jews dead to the Law by the body of Christ?

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Those who have been born again, yes, certainly.

In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek . . .

Much love!

GodsGrace said:

I'm going to post some links...I'm no expert on Romans 9 to 11, but it deals with the state of Israel and the Jews and the plans God had and has for them...

Romans 9 - Expository Comments On Romans 9-11


Romans 9-11: A New View of the Doctrine of Election

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Did the references help?

GodsGrace said:

God did NOT give Moses the teaching on divorce.
Jesus brought the law back to how it was in the beginning in Genesis.

It is the firm understanding of some theologians that:

NOT EVERY LAW was given by God.
Some of the law was man-made.


Have you read all the laws in the Torah?
Do you need proof that some of it was NOT WRITTEN BY GOD?

Many problem arise due to this belief.
The bible is inspired...
Men wrote it.
God didn't sit at his computer and type it out.


Inspire(v. t.)

To infuse into; to affect, as with a superior or supernatural influence; to fill with what animates, enlivens, or exalts; to communicate inspiration to; as, to inspire a child with sentiments of virtue; to inspire a person to do extraordinary feats.

source: definitions.com

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False.... The law came from God.There are no man made scriptures,that is unbiblical 2 tim 3:16-17

Giuliano said:

We have to remember that the right way to interpret the Law of Moses involves love. In this case, what is the loving thing to be done for the woman who's married to a man with a hard heart? Never mind the husband -- what about the wife?

Suppose a man's wife starts to age a little and he wants a younger one. Suppose then that he starts treating his current wife in abusive ways. If a man has a hard heart, why should his wife be punished for what's wrong with him? The sin is his. Insisting that he can't divorce her would punish her.

In a way, a divorce does punish her, especially if she still cares about him and would prefer to work things out; but insisting that both maintain a nonloving relationship isn't fair to her.

In that culture, she may have been forced into another marriage. If she was still emotionally attached to her first husband, that would tear her apart emotionally. It could feel like committing adultery every time she had sex with her second husband. Second marriages like that have the potential for trouble. How could she love her second husband if she was still in love with the first?

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wrong, carnal reasoning

Anthony D'Arienzo said:

wrong, carnal reasoning

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Thank you for your opinion.

VictoryinJesus said:

I’m sorry but this is important as you said I’ve confused it with personal salvation. Were not all under the bondage of death...in all die. Were not all subjected to vanity and corruption. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

“Instruction in righteousness” His. Philippians 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

I take that to say all scripture is profitable by the Spirit of God and God’s doctrine spoken of by Jesus Christ who said his doctrine was not His but The doctrine of the Father who sent The Son. That man’s doctrine speaks of man. But the Son speaks of the Father; God. Flesh profits nothing but it is the Spirit which profits...when He said the words He speaks are Life. Get what the link you gave said about The Mosaic Law was given to the Jew...but pertaining to according to the flesh...I also was under the ministration of death but as a gentile can now taste of the ministration of the Spirit and of Life; as He came to set the captives free...Jew and gentile. Why put the Word of God in a vacuum when it is profitable for the whole of mankind as pertaining to the Spirit? God is not a respecter of persons.

From the link: “Bro. Robert Turner observes: " ... we find three 'what ifs' implied. [1] what if God had vessels of mercy as well as vessels of wrath? [2] What if both Jew and Gentile are vessels of mercy? ... [3] What if God saves only those who trust Christ? He makes Christ the testing stone for Jew or Gentile." This is all God's business, His plan and His will.

But whatever anybody says about it, one thing is certain: It is fair! Because anybody - regardless of race, income, gender, education or social standing - anybody can hear, believe and obey the gospel of Christ and be saved! Anybody. Now who wants to reply against that? Will you please notice the last phrase in Romans nine: "... whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame!" But, Paul will point out in the next chapter, "... not all obeyed the gospel," (10:16).”

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All you've said is good,,,
but it does not detract from the fact that Romans chapters 9 to 11 does not address personal salvation but the salvation of the Jews as a nation.

Grailhunter said:

Did the references help?

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The links did NOT help the other member who is still talking about personal salvation.

I guess it takes some time for this to sink in.
I sometimes whish those 3 chapters of Romans (9, 10, 11) were a separate book.
Do they even belong there??
I don't think so...this makes for much confusion.

Anthony D'Arienzo said:

False.... The law came from God.There are no man made scriptures,that is unbiblical 2 tim 3:16-17

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I didn't mention the law...
If by the law you mean the 613 (and more) rules in the Torah....
Then I do not agree with you.

God did NOT establish some of those rules.
I'm not listing them...you've read the Torah, I assume.
You can figure out for yourself if some of those rules are from God.

GodsGrace said:

The links did NOT help the other member who is still talking about personal salvation.

I guess it takes some time for this to sink in.
I sometimes whish those 3 chapters of Romans (9, 10, 11) were a separate book.
Do they even belong there??
I don't think so...this makes for much confusion.

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Romans 9-11
Of course this is mostly about his reflection on Israel.
The year, around 58 ad, eight years after the decision of the Council of Jerusalem. The Jewish Messiah had been crucified and to what end for Israel, they had rejected Him! A few had believed but that was no consolation for the nation that had cursed itself.

Matthew 27:22-26 Pilate said to them, “Then what shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?” They all *said, “Crucify Him!” And he said, “Why, what evil has He done?” But they kept shouting all the more, saying, “Crucify Him!” When Pilate saw that he was accomplishing nothing, but rather that a riot was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd, saying, “I am innocent of this Man’s blood; see to that yourselves.” And all the people said, “His blood shall be on us and on our children!” Then he released Barabbas for them; but after having Jesus scourged, he handed Him over to be crucified.

Hard to recover from that. This part of Romans is emotion. Like the old soldier that sits down at a campfire after a long day, the battle, the war was won, but at what cost? He lights up a cigarette and pours a drink to reflect. He thinks of all the tragedies and all the triumphs. Like that old soldier, I believe in this part of Romans, Paul wrote down his thoughts and his feelings. As you read these scriptures it seems like he is rambling, reflections, sorrow, and hope. He was reflecting on the history and the promises that had gotten the Jews to that point, and for what? What about the promises? He knew that Christ was God, put what about His people? To some degree he is arguing with himself. Romans 10:21-11:1-7 “I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of the Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom he foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.” But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.” The remnant are the Jews that believed in Jesus, but what about the rest? They had waited so long for the Messiah, but greater than the Messiah had come and they had Him Crucified! The covenant would turn to the Gentiles, the promise would be fulfilled through them. How regrettable for the Jews, how ironic, throughout history they had been their own worst enemy!

He reflects on all that had happened and still expresses hope for his people. What would happen to them? In his heart he sincerely hoped that they would come around and join the fold under that Good Shepherd. But how could that happen? 10:1-2 “Brethren my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. For not knowing about God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.” And he also reflects on the bitter sweets, 10:15-16 “And how shall they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring glad tidings of good things.” However, they did not all heed the glad tidings; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”

Grailhunter said:

Romans 9-11
Of course this is mostly about his reflection on Israel.
The year, around 58 ad, eight years after the decision of the Council of Jerusalem. The Jewish Messiah had been crucified and to what end for Israel, they had rejected Him! A few had believed but that was no consolation for the nation that had cursed itself.

Matthew 27:22-26 Pilate said to them, “Then what shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?” They all *said, “Crucify Him!” And he said, “Why, what evil has He done?” But they kept shouting all the more, saying, “Crucify Him!” When Pilate saw that he was accomplishing nothing, but rather that a riot was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd, saying, “I am innocent of this Man’s blood; see to that yourselves.” And all the people said, “His blood shall be on us and on our children!” Then he released Barabbas for them; but after having Jesus scourged, he handed Him over to be crucified.

Hard to recover from that. This part of Romans is emotion. Like the old soldier that sits down at a campfire after a long day, the battle, the war was won, but at what cost? He lights up a cigarette and pours a drink to reflect. He thinks of all the tragedies and all the triumphs. Like that old soldier, I believe in this part of Romans, Paul wrote down his thoughts and his feelings. As you read these scriptures it seems like he is rambling, reflections, sorrow, and hope. He was reflecting on the history and the promises that had gotten the Jews to that point, and for what? What about the promises? He knew that Christ was God, put what about His people? To some degree he is arguing with himself. Romans 10:21-11:1-7 “I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of the Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom he foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.” But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.” The remnant are the Jews that believed in Jesus, but what about the rest? They had waited so long for the Messiah, but greater than the Messiah had come and they had Him Crucified! The covenant would turn to the Gentiles, the promise would be fulfilled through them. How regrettable for the Jews, how ironic, throughout history they had been their own worst enemy!

He reflects on all that had happened and still expresses hope for his people. What would happen to them? In his heart he sincerely hoped that they would come around and join the fold under that Good Shepherd. But how could that happen? 10:1-2 “Brethren my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. For not knowing about God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.” And he also reflects on the bitter sweets, 10:15-16 “And how shall they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring glad tidings of good things.” However, they did not all heed the glad tidings; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”

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Great post.

I sure hope @VictoryinJesus sees this.

Thanks for such a good reply....

VictoryinJesus said:

Thank you for the correction. You are right. Better to quote it Mark 10:3-5
[3] And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? [4] And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. [5] And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.

^ whatever that means, to me, it still speaks clearly against a hardened heart.

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Most men can’t see who their husband is.

GINOLJC, to all. first, thanks for the topic. second, not having read all the responses, but this and a few others are one of the big discussion in the body of Christ today. and yes, this needs to be addressed, because God is not the author of confusion. you asked,

VictoryinJesus said:

A few questions are: did God give Israel a bill of divorcement or not?

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let the bible speak, Isa 50:1 "Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away". ok, who did God put away, and who did he divorce? scripture, Jer 3:6 "The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
Jer 3:7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also".
so backsliding Israel was put away and given a bill of divorcement.

now, this,
Jer 3:10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.
Jer 3:11 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
Jer 3:12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.
Jer 3:13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.
Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
Jer 3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding".

so both was "put away", only Israel was given a bill of divorcement, and this is very IMPORTANT. the key to understanding marriage and divorcement, is to be fed with "KNOWLEDGE & UNDERSTANDING". Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage, all these things are addressed in the bible with examples.

now, one, maybe two thing one need to know about Marriage and Divorce is this, both are two fold, or have two steps in both processes to be fully married or fully divorce.

A. “The Marriage”
Step #1. Espousal, or engage in Marriage.
Step #2. Consummated, or fully married.

B. “The Divorcement”
Step #1. The Putting Away, or (the Departing, or separation).
Step #2. The Bill of Divorcement, or fully divorced.

Please understand both of these concepts. In an espouse marriage one is not fully married, not in the eyes of the Lord, and is not in need of a bill of divorcement, if some uncleanness is found, (hence “Fornication”). On the other hand if the marriage is consummated and some uncleanness is found, (hence, "adultery"), then a bill of divorcement is required. but this is based on, if the innocent, or injured party decide to end the marriage. see the difference so far. (the rules for a virgin at home and or away form home have different rules), as with a divorce spouse.

Now, in the "putting away" of a spouse, one is not fully divorced and is in need of a bill of divorcement to be completely divorce if the uncleaness is "adultery". So in the case of “Fornication”, an espouse marriage, no bill of divorcement is needed, just the putting away. these concepts will reveal the truth about marriage, and divorce.

when one understand these concepts given above, then the confusion disappear.

the OT is certified in the NT, as the NT is Justified by the OT when one understand the complete steps in a Marriage, and the complete steps in a Divorce. but let me warn you, what is revealed in a marriage and a divorce might suprise you. for it is at the CORE of God basic LAW. meaning his Spiritual "LAW" written in our hearts vs the old stoney heart under the OT written in stone.

so when the Lord Jesus said, "I'm not come to destroy the LAW, but to fulfil it", one better be perpared to know what Law he is speaking of. and it's not the Mosaic law of the OT covenant, but his, God, his Law written in the heart of men before the nation of Israel was even born. THIS IS GOD LAW THAT IS IN PLAY. and divorcement was added by God for several reason, which might surprise many. but as our Lord Jesus said, "it was not so in the beginning". but because of men evil, hard hearts God allowed it in orther to saved many, and to balance the Judgment correctly.

this topic is going to be an eye opeaner for some.

PICJAG.

VictoryinJesus said:

Yes, It is a great post. Still ...can you show all mankind is not subjected to Hope in Ezekiel 11:19-20 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: [20] That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Tables of Stone=Natural. A heart of stone. Every “natural” ground in the parables presented by Christ ...can not endure: either burn and wither, lack water, or Falls on stone...some ate by fowls. The word aligns with natural does not endure but one must be born again...born from above, given a new heart and spirit from above. Mark 4:16-1 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; [17] And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

That seed sown in ‘stone’ endures but for a time...when affliction or persecution comes for the words sake...they are offended. 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Jesus Christ said it to John: blessed is he who is not offended in Me. And he meant it. Blessed are those Who receive Christ and the Kingdom of God and bring forth fruit ...obedience unto righteousness: born from above no longer “natural” but born of the Spirit of God. Mark 4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

In you will know them by their fruit. It is either: Tables of stone (natural) or given a new heart, a new spirit...born of God from above. Natural which endures for a time ...or Spirit which endures all things, hopes all things, believes all things ...and bears all things. As far as the passage in Romans we can argue over it all day long but it won’t resolve anything...yet the vessels have a purpose: either vessels built for destruction...built to destroy and waste which is seen in a “consumption” God determined upon the whole earth ...as in a “wasting” a bringing low....consuming...Who created the waster that wastes? It is in men ...built for destruction and to waste. Natural man with no rebirth given from above. If you don't already see this everywhere then I don’t know what else to say. There is a wasting going on: a consumption(consuming). Have you ever considered the curse God showed in the OT and said it enters a house and begins to eat(consume) until it falls. Yet there are vessels of Mercy...Mercy given of God from above ....not “natural” vessels built for destruction...but vessels built (born Anew)for Mercy. This comes and is given from above so from the very beginning...God chooses on whom He will have Mercy and given a new birth from above to walk in newness of Life. God chooses when one is born again from above. When and where...in God knows where the wind blows. Guess you can argue it ...but for me ....a person is either Natural or Spiritual (given a new birth and a new heart(the mind of Christ) ...they either destroy or build in Christ. They either have a heart of stone and are natural...or been given a new heart in Ezekiel 11:19-20. Being born of the Spirit. All the word is profitable which means Spirit...in Spirit there is no Jew, nor Greek, nor male, nor female...yet we force there to be these divisions and “respecters” which pertain to the natural ...and not the Spirit.

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I didn't say that all of the bible, or even the O.T. is only for the Jews.
What I posted concerns Romans chapters 9 to 11.
Of course the word if for everyone....
You continue to understand those chapters in your own way,,,as I can tell from your statements on the vessels.

The vessels spoken of here are THE JEWS,,,not each one of us individually.
As I said,,, I'm not an expert on this, @Grailhunter knows a lot more than I do.
As you can see from the beginning of chapter 9 in Romans, Paul has great grief in his heart for his fellow countrymen. Why? Romans 9:1-4 sets the tone for the rest of the three chapters.

Maybe this is a new idea for you and you could read up on it some more.
Or maybe you cannot accept this idea.
It IS a known fact for every denomination except for calvinism.
I sent you some good links,,,I cannot do more.
Maybe Grailhunter can help you?

Just want to say that this is not a matter of opinion...
It's accepted theology.