The Real Jesus
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I have heard this explanation before, but it is simply a belief to which people subscribe. Should we all adhere to it or embrace it simply because others do? So then what do these verses mean?
"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." I Cor 15:24-27
ScottA
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You continue to promote this heresy while misunderstanding and misapplying the meaning of "the everlasting Father" to Jesus.
The Father is NOT the Son, neither is the Son the Father. So how should we understanding Isaiah 9:6?
1. Firstly we should look at what is actually stated in the Hebrew Text:
אֲבִיעַ֖ד (a·vi·'ad or abiad) = Everlasting Father
2. Secondly we should see how we are to understand this when Jesus is NOT God the Father. BDB correctly says that it is a figurative title:
Brown-Driver-Briggs
אָב1191 noun masculine father (Phoenician אב,...)
7 figurative of benevolence & protection Job 29:6 אָב אָֽנֹכִי לָֽאֶבְיוֺנִים, compare Job 31:18; of Eliakim Isaiah 22:21; perhaps also of gracious Messianic king אֲבִי עַד Isaiah 9:6 everlasting father (Ge Ew De Che Brd Di) — others divider of spoil (Abarb Hi Kn Kue BrMP).
3. Thirdly we should see how reliable commentators have explained this:
JOHN GILL
...Christ is a Father with respect to chosen men, who were given him as his children and offspring in covenant; who are adopted into that family that is named of him, and who are regenerated by his Spirit and grace: and to these he is an "everlasting Father"...
MATTHEW HENRY
...He is the everlasting Father, or the Father of eternity; he is God, one with the Father, who is from everlasting to everlasting. He is the author of everlasting life and happiness to them, and so is the Father of a blessed eternity to them. He is the Father of the world to come...
KEIL & DELITZSCH
...The title Eternal Father designates Him, however, not only as the possessor of eternity (Hengstenberg), but as the tender, faithful, and wise trainer, guardian, and provider for His people even in eternity (Isaiah 22:21). He is eternal Father, as the eternal, loving King, according to the description in Psalm 72....
Nancy
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There is only ONE Father according to Malachi 2:10. So if Christ is a Father, He is THE Father.
I do believe that the kjv is correct in translating it as "the everlasting Father". But even if it is to be translated "Father of eternity" it still identifies Christ as the Father; for if He is a Father, He is the Father. For there is only one Father (Malachi 2:10)
As eternal Father, he must needs be the Father, Malachi 2:10.
Mal 2:10, Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?
The scripture above declares that we all have one Father and that He is the God who created us...another evidence that Jesus is the Father...since He is God. And I would remind you that we would all do well to believe that there is one God (James 2:19).
I do recognize that until a man is baptized in Jesus' name, he will not be able to wrap his mind around the Oneness of our Triune God; and will reject the reality of what the scripture truly teaches about it.
Faithful commentators may not be right 100% of the time.
Jesus is the everlasting Father; and I have seen how certain people who want to defend God's threeness to an excessive form, do change the wording of scripture (i.e. from everlasting to eternal; and sometimes even again) in order to make the holy scripture fit their preconceived notions. It is truly unnecessary. Because in proclaiming that Jesus (the Son) is the Father (while also understanding that the Father is not the Son), I am not denying the threeness in the Trinity; but rather am only trying to explain that God is not separate in His personage but distinct (as all the creeds will testify).
You would have to throw out the kjv entirely in order to keep such an interpretation as Jesus is the Father of eternity.
Because it clearly teaches that He is the everlasting Father; and in order to change that to Father of eternity you have to reject the way that it is written in the King James Version. Thus the kjv is no longer a valid Bible in your eyes; and yet it is this Bible that has sustained the people of God for more than four centuries. I believe that it is inspired and inerrant; and that only those with itching ears are even inclined to go to other translations or amateur renderings of the Greek or Hebrew languages as you look to see what words were used in those languages. The problem with that is, that you may pick the wrong word/synonym to portray the word from the original language in English; and it is also true that the sovereign, loving, and Omnipotent Lord of everything took part in the process of translating the versions that we have in English, and especially the kjv (while certain other versions had such people as lesbians on their translation teams and cannot be trusted to have been translated in the Spirit of prayer and dependence and reliance on the Holy Ghost for every word).
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It is a valid explanation that preserves the identity of Jesus Christ as the Son of God, the everlasting Father.
The Father who inhabiteth eternity descended into time and took on human flesh. He is outside of time; and He is also the Lord of heaven and earth. Jesus, the Son, is the descended Father. And the Father who inhabiteth eternity remains in eternity as the singular Lord of everything. But He also descended into time and from time's perspective He is bringing all things in subjection to the Lordship of the Son. Once all have been brought into subjection to the Lordship of the Son, the Son (the descended Father) will submit to His former self (God the Father) because God the Father is Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent and when He gives the Lordship of creation to His future self, He does not relinquish it from Himself but retains Lordship over all of creation.
Valid to some, and perhaps correct, but I haven't seen it so clearly yet, so still I won't embrace it. I will simply trust God without having a more specific identification. He is, most certainly, and will given us what is needed when it is needed, if we keeping of trusting.
Thank you for taking the time to present your view. I have nothing more definite although I am sure on some points if pressed I would likely differ. I simply take the verses of scripture as they come and as God gives me an interpretation when He does. Many of them I don't understand yet, but how often do we need them simply to converse or debate with anyone? God has more important tasks for us. He will provide what is needed when it is needed without a doubt if we are simply ready and willing. He is God!
How is it possible, in your mind, that Jesus is God (for you have said that you believe that He is) and yet less than the Father; if it is not in His humanity that this is the case?
For the Jehovah's Witnesses use the scripture in question as an argument in denial of Christ's Deity; and we say in favour of Christ's Deity that it is only in His humanity that He is less than the Father.
But if He is truly less than the Father in any other way, how is He also God?
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Then He died on the Cross, saying to the Father, Into thy hands I commend my Spirit; which Spirit was then poured out on the early church on the Day of Pentecost and has been in the church ever since.
It is this Spirit that sheds abroad His love in our hearts (Romans 5:5), which is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6) and also the bond of perfectness (Colossians 3:14).
When we love our brothers and sisters the way we are supposed to, there is none occasion of stumbling in us (1 John 2:10); and if we give diligence to make our calling and election sure, we shall never fall (2 Peter 1:10). He is able to keep you from falling and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy (Jude 1:24).
Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it (1 Thessalonians 5:24). Do what?
1Th 5:23, And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified (Hebrews 10:14).
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9 )
1Jo 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jo 2:17, And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
1Jo 3:7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jo 3:3, And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Jo 2:6, He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1Jo 2:27, But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1Jo 2:28, And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
1Jo 2:29, If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
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In a sense Jesus and His words are the same thing. Jesus is God's spoken message made flesh.
Everything that is eternal is God. In Jesus the essence of who He is is God, but not it's complete expression. If Christ was the Father no one could see His face and live. Christ had to be the message without judgement, an expression of the Father to show His heart but not destructive.
What we are is between rebellion and communion, with a choice.
Christ is the Father veiled in flesh.
Jhn 14:7, If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Jhn 14:8, Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jhn 14:9, Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Jhn 14:10, Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Jhn 14:11, Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Jhn 1:18, No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
You may wonder what it means that Jesus is in the bosom of the Father. How is He the Father if Hr is in the bosom of the Father? The answer is, Jesus is come in the flesh; and as a human being He is less than the Father and dwells within His bosom (while in His Deity He is equal to the Father, John 5:18). But in His Spirit He is the same Person as the Father; and also has a human nature from Mary. Thus His personality is different from that of the Father, who inhabiteth eternity (Isaiah 57:15) as a Spirit (John 4:23-24).
While your replies are interesting they do not answer the question.
What evidence do you have that only one name or title can be used by Jesus?
You and others have already decided what God is. I have not been so quick to presume I fully understand the nature of God, nor do I blindly follow the beliefs of others. I simply believe and allow God to fill the blanks when and if He chooses to do so. I believe Jesus is God because I believe the scriptures:
"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." Who is calling who, God, here?
Yet again...
"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I." John 14:28
What was Jesus praying for here other than for you and me and each of us here to be as He already is?
"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." John 17:20-21
The problem for some is that they have already decided what Jesus is [as well as what God is]... even though they probably at best only know in part. What do they know? What part do they only believe that they know?
Consider:
God the Father of all has all knowledge and complete authority, Jesus does not.
"But of that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Mark 13:32
"Jesus answered and said, "You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?'' They said to Him, "We are able.'' So He said to them, "You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with; but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father.'' Matt 20:22-23
But... in spite of these things Jesus is God, because God named him as God. Should we receive man's definition of what God is rather than accepting what God says?
And only in the throne was Joseph less than Pharaoh: Gen 41:40
Was Joseph not less than Pharaoh?
Again you presume your definition of God as well as your definition of Jesus are absolute, while they are simply what you believe. Who and what is God? Is He not as he defines Himself rather than what I say or what you say?
Many evangelicals are not prepared to encounter "the real Jesus" in His full humanity.
(1) "... who though He [Christ] was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be expoited, but emptied Himself...(Philippians 2:6-7)."
Emptied Himself of what? His divine prerogatives--omniscience, omnipotence, etc. He had to empty Himself in this way to become fully human. This fact explains why He needed to receive the Holy Spirit at His baptism to perform miracles and why prior to this
(2) His family saw nothing special in Him that would prepared them to accept Him as the Messiah.
"For His own brothers did not believe in Him (John 7:5)."
"When His family heard it, they went out to physically restrain Him, for they were saying, "He is out of His mind (Mark 3:21)."
"Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor, except...among his own kin and in his own house (Mark 6:4)
(3) "His mother said to Him, "Why have you mistreated us like this? Look! Your Father and I have been searching for you with great anxiety!" Jesus increased in wisdom and...in divine favor (Luke 2:48, 52)."
For the boy Jesus to increase in wisdom and divine favor implies that He was previously less wise and less in divine favor. Luke is referring back to the incident in which Jesus (age 12) left His family enourage without permission and without notifying His parents during their journey back to Galilee from Jerusalem, forcing them to search for Him for 3 days and causing them great distress that foul play had befallen Him. Mary's rebuke is warranted. Jesus had to learn by trial and error just like the rest of us. But learning by trial and error does not mean that Jesus sinned in His lack of consideration for His parents feelings.
(4) "Although He was a Son, He learned obedience through the things He suffered (Hebrews 5:8)." So there was a prior period in which Jesus was not yet obedient.
(5) "We do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weakness, but one who in every respect has been tested, just as we are, yet without sin (Hebrews 4:15)."
Jesus needed all our limitations to serve as our moral and spiritual example and His human limitations were essential to His status as our role model.
(6) "A man...asked Him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone (Mark 10:17-18)."
Jesus distinguishes Himself from God and implies that He is not "good." This explains why He feels the need to accept John's baptism of repentance. Jesus' response to John's protest (Matthew 3:14-15) does not remove this implication. But Jesus is simply distinguishing Himself from the Father and implying that the Father is the ultimate source of all His goodness. The word "repent" means "to change" direction; so we can't assume from Jesus' baptismal act of repentance that He was a sinner.
(7) And He could do no deed of power there, except...(Mark 6:5)."
For all His miracles Jesus sometimes tried and failed to perform them because of their unbelief. "Could do no" does no mean "chose not to do."
(8) Jesus' limitations in knowledge and endurance sometimes caused Him to doubt His spiritual path and filled Him with a terror that made Him want to escap His fate:
"In the days of His flesh Jesus offered up prayers and supplications with loud cries and tears to the one who was able to save :Him from death, and He was heard because of His reverent submission (Hebrews 5:7)."
("He said, "Abba Father, for you all things are possible; remove this cup from me (Mark 14:36)!"
"At 3 o'clock Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "My God, God, why have you forsaken me (Mark 15:34)?"
(1) "... who though He [Christ] was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be expoited, but emptied Himself...(Philippians 2:6-7)."
Emptied Himself of what? His divine prerogatives--omniscience, omnipotence, etc. He had to empty Himself in this way to become fully human. This fact explains why He needed to receive the Holy Spirit at His baptism to perform miracles and why prior to this
(2) His family saw nothing special in Him that would prepared them to accept Him as the Messiah.
"For His own brothers did not believe in Him (John 7:5)."
"When His family heard it, they went out to physically restrain Him, for they were saying, "He is out of His mind (Mark 3:21)."
"Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor, except...among his own kin and in his own house (Mark 6:4)
(3) "His mother said to Him, "Why have you mistreated us like this? Look! Your Father and I have been searching for you with great anxiety!" Jesus increased in wisdom and...in divine favor (Luke 2:48, 52)."
For the boy Jesus to increase in wisdom and divine favor implies that He was previously less wise and less in divine favor. Luke is referring back to the incident in which Jesus (age 12) left His family enourage without permission and without notifying His parents during their journey back to Galilee from Jerusalem, forcing them to search for Him for 3 days and causing them great distress that foul play had befallen Him. Mary's rebuke is warranted. Jesus had to learn by trial and error just like the rest of us. But learning by trial and error does not mean that Jesus sinned in His lack of consideration for His parents feelings.
(4) "Although He was a Son, He learned obedience through the things He suffered (Hebrews 5:8)." So there was a prior period in which Jesus was not yet obedient.
(5) "We do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weakness, but one who in every respect has been tested, just as we are, yet without sin (Hebrews 4:15)."
Jesus needed all our limitations to serve as our moral and spiritual example and His human limitations were essential to His status as our role model.
(6) "A man...asked Him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone (Mark 10:17-18)."
Jesus distinguishes Himself from God and implies that He is not "good." This explains why He feels the need to accept John's baptism of repentance. Jesus' response to John's protest (Matthew 3:14-15) does not remove this implication. But Jesus is simply distinguishing Himself from the Father and implying that the Father is the ultimate source of all His goodness. The word "repent" means "to change" direction; so we can't assume from Jesus' baptismal act of repentance that He was a sinner.
(7) And He could do no deed of power there, except...(Mark 6:5)."
For all His miracles Jesus sometimes tried and failed to perform them because of their unbelief. "Could do no" does no mean "chose not to do."
(8) Jesus' limitations in knowledge and endurance sometimes caused Him to doubt His spiritual path and filled Him with a terror that made Him want to escap His fate:
"In the days of His flesh Jesus offered up prayers and supplications with loud cries and tears to the one who was able to save :Him from death, and He was heard because of His reverent submission (Hebrews 5:7)."
("He said, "Abba Father, for you all things are possible; remove this cup from me (Mark 14:36)!"
"At 3 o'clock Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "My God, God, why have you forsaken me (Mark 15:34)?"
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No, actually He doesn't...in this passage Jesus is drawing the man out to make the conclusion that because the man knew that Jesus was good, he might come to the faithful realization that Jesus was also God.
In John 8:24; John 8:58; John 8:59; John 10:31-33; and Exodus 3:14, it should be clear that Jesus broke normal grammatical usage to make a claim and that the Pharisees understood His claim; to the extent that they tried to stone Him twice for what they considered to be blasphemy. When He asked them the reason why they had picked up stones to stone Him, they said, "because thou, being a man, makest thyself God."
This is incontrovertible evidence that Jesus claimed to be God. He even made it a salvation issue that we believe in this doctrine (the Deity of Christ) in John 8:24.
Jesus therefore is either a liar on the level of the devil of hell; or He is a lunatic on the level of someone who thinks he is a poached egg; or He is the Lord God who created us, just as He said. But none of this business about Jesus being merely a great moral teacher. A lunatic or a devil would never qualify as a great moral teacher. I conclude that because He was a great moral teacher, and also claimed to be God, that He is the Lord God even as He said. Because a deceiving liar would have neither the moral rectitude nor the desire to teach great moral virtue to the people; and a lunatic would not have the capacity of mind to do so. That leaves only one option: Jesus is God. And since he also made it a salvation issue in John 8:24 to believe that He is, those who deny the doctrine of the Deity of Christ are faced with the fate that is coming to them, that they will die in their sins unless they repent of their unbelief and receive Jesus Christ as the God who created them; for without receiving Him they cannot have within them the love that God requires; for God is love: and in rejecting Him they are rejecting love.
concept gotten from C.S. Lewis.
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Nevertheless the following scriptures are true and faithful:
1Co 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Jesus and the Father are the same Lord; for the Father is Lord (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21); and there is only one Lord (Ephesians 4:5).
Therefore the fact that Jesus appears to not have all authority would seem to be because of, in part, His humanity. It is His former self who is Omniscient and better able to decide who will sit at Jesus' right hand and at His left. But His former self is still Jesus Christ; for it is written, that, whatsoever spirit confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God.
This is true whether you believe that Jesus was eternally begotten or whether you believe that He was begotten in the incarnation, as Luke 1:35 declares.
Personally, I do not believe that 1/3 of God descended to become a Man; and neither do I believe that it was a 2nd God who did this. God is one; and we would all do well to believe this (James 2:19).
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Very good, my friend! You have collected some good verses in support of what you believe. I can see why, but I already knew about everyone of those verses. Not one of those scriptures do I reject. On the contrary, but all the more reason NOT to draw conclusions which allow for less or more than what is written.
Yes, God is clearly One, but He is certainly something more that I cannot completely understand... but then still ahead of those make it with Him to the end there is a face to face vision. I for one do not know exactly how that vision is. I would be surprised if any one else yet walking around in their flesh today does either...
The appearance is within for those who will see it clearly...
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