Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

Grailhunter said:

That is because you believe that Baptism is the point of being a Christian, rather than the belief in Christ, being the point of being a Christian.

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No - that's what the BIBLE teaches (John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Pet. 3:21) - and what the Church has ALWAYS taught since the Apostles.

Justin Martyr
As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father... and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian
[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, "Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life" (On Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).

When we are about to enter the water — no, just a little before — In the church and under the hand of the bishop, we solemnly profess that we renounce the devil and his pomps and his angels. Thereupon we are immersed three times (The Crown 3:2 [A.D. 211]).

Hippolytus
Where there is no scarcity of water the stream shall flow through the baptismal font or pour into it from above; but if water is scarce, whether on a constant condition or on occasion, then use whatever water is available. Let them remove their clothing. Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D.215]).

Recognitions of Clement
But you will perhaps say, 'What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?' In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).

Cyprian
[l]t behooves those to be baptized . . . so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God . . . because it is written "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (Epistles 72 [73]: 21 [A.D. 252]).

Giuliano said:

I'll admit you had me a little worried there for a while. Never doubt it for a second. God's side has been winning from the beginning; but sometimes it's hard to see from our human perspective.

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Indeed. But this is not unexpected. The Church has always known that she would undergo a final rejection and persecution by the world.

From the CCC :

677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.578The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.579God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgement after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.580

----

Now is not the time to despair, but to hold our heads high, for our redemption draws near!

Maranatha!

BreadOfLife said:

Leviticus 10:8 and Isaiah 28:7 aren't condemnations of drinking.

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Who said they were?

Jesus Himself MADE wine at the Wedding at Cana - and LOTS of it.

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Cana was a wedding, not a church service. How's that for interpreting Scripture?

What makes you think that drinking is forbidden??
You have a LOT to learn about how to interpret Scripture . . .

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Who said drinking was forbidden? Pay attention please. Leviticus and Isaiah are about priests drinking "on the job". . . . People should have known better, but Aaron's two sons got drunk and "offered strange fire." Moses was then told to tell the priests what they should have already known.

BreadOfLife said:

No - that's what the BIBLE teaches (John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Pet. 3:21) - and what the Church has ALWAYS taught since the Apostles.

Justin Martyr
As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father... and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian
[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, "Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life" (On Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).

When we are about to enter the water — no, just a little before — In the church and under the hand of the bishop, we solemnly profess that we renounce the devil and his pomps and his angels. Thereupon we are immersed three times (The Crown 3:2 [A.D. 211]).

Hippolytus
Where there is no scarcity of water the stream shall flow through the baptismal font or pour into it from above; but if water is scarce, whether on a constant condition or on occasion, then use whatever water is available. Let them remove their clothing. Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D.215]).

Recognitions of Clement
But you will perhaps say, 'What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?' In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).

Cyprian
[l]t behooves those to be baptized . . . so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God . . . because it is written "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (Epistles 72 [73]: 21 [A.D. 252]).

Click to expand...

O

BreadOfLife said:

No - that's what the BIBLE teaches (John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Pet. 3:21) - and what the Church has ALWAYS taught since the Apostles.

Justin Martyr
As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father... and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian
[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, "Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life" (On Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).

When we are about to enter the water — no, just a little before — In the church and under the hand of the bishop, we solemnly profess that we renounce the devil and his pomps and his angels. Thereupon we are immersed three times (The Crown 3:2 [A.D. 211]).

Hippolytus
Where there is no scarcity of water the stream shall flow through the baptismal font or pour into it from above; but if water is scarce, whether on a constant condition or on occasion, then use whatever water is available. Let them remove their clothing. Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D.215]).

Recognitions of Clement
But you will perhaps say, 'What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?' In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).

Cyprian
[l]t behooves those to be baptized . . . so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God . . . because it is written "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (Epistles 72 [73]: 21 [A.D. 252]).

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I do not think anyone is going to contest that Baptism should occur. But beliefs differ. So some Protestants beliefs are that baptism is nothing more than a act of obedience and public display...I do not believe that. It should happen and it does mean something. Then if we do battling scriptures may ammo is over 200 scriptures indicating that faith alone is the requirement for salvation. No movement of the body required, in other words no works. How many scriptures do you want?

Giuliano said:

No, I'm just giving typical Catholic doctrine to you. If the Pope says ex cathedra something isn't a sin, then it wouldn't be a sin. Who are you or I to question him or the Holy Spirit

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And now I'm a little worried about you brother,
This sounds like 'if you are the son of God, come down from that cross'...

If you have Christ's authority, only call evil good, and we will acknowledge you... (God forbid!)

Philip James said:

And now I'm a little worried about you brother,
This sounds like 'if you are the son of God, come down from that cross'...

If you have Christ's authority, only call evil good, and we will acknowledge you... (God forbid!)

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Who am I to judge?

Faith and works are one.
James 2:17-19
Faith and Works
…17So too, faith by itself, if it is not complemented by action, is dead. 18But someone will say, “You have faith and I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19You believe that God is one. Good for you! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.…

Faith and works are one as God is one. You speak of works before or outside of faith. Those are works that will never get you into heaven. Like those of whom are called a decent atheist, or Jews who reject Jesus Christ and people of other religions . It is not by works that we receive Grace and Mercy. "I show mercy to whom I choose". Grace is something received without works.....do honor or credit to (someone or something) by one's presence. It is due to Christ coming and by the Grace of His gift and presents received , that we enter into faith. "It is not the healthy who need a physician but the sick" Clearly no self merit for all are sick before they receive Christ, with various conditions.

The correct question is : "Is there salvation outside of Christ"? For an ax is not responsible for its own momentum nor a glove in its wearing. And clearly a church's strength is in obedience to Christ. We are not baptized in the name of our church or any man,we are baptized in the name of Christ. And church, is : "Wherever two or three are gathered in my name there too shall I be in the midst of them". Church is wherever the gospel of Jesus Christ is upheld as the STANDARD.

BreadOfLife said:

No - you're wrong.
Being divorced does NOT make one ineligible to receive the Eucharist - unless they remarry.

I will never "go away" as long as YOU continue to spew nonsense against the Church . . .

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Oh for goodness sake.

DID I SAY DIVORCE MAKE ONE INELLIGIBLE FOR COMMUNION?
NO!

HOWEVER, THERE ARE CIRCUMSTANCES WHEN IT DOES...
FOR INSTANCE IF THE PERSON DIVORCED IN ENGAGING IN FORNICATION.

must I spell it out for you?

AND, BTW, being remarried, according to the CC, IS FORNICATION.

Grailhunter said:

@Giuliano
Having fun! I wrote a 1900 page book...before I started I took the advise of Paul Harvey and Zig Ziglar. You have to write at the 6th grade level unless you are only expect professors to buy your book. lol You are shooting over their heads, you need to lower your aim lol

But I do have a question for the Catholics....when you were in Catholic school did the nuns teach you the Infancy Gospels? They were mentioned a lot when I was in Catholic school.

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For @Giuliano too

This is the first time I ever read a thread page after page.
I ALSO was having a lot of fun.

Basically, BoL does not read, or pay attention to posts.
He's just ready for the attach and doesn't really reply properly.
He either reads stuff INTO a post or takes ideas out of it.

I guess it's difficult for some to admit when they're wrong or when they don't understand the topic at hand.

Yes..it's been fun! (I should do this more often!)

P.S. I can't remember ever hearing about the Infancy Gospels ... not even as an adult.
The CC does teach that we can't know everything for sure...they believe this about Judas too. (lost or saved). They use extra-biblical sources when it suits them....

GodsGrace said:

For @Giuliano too

This is the first time I ever read a thread page after page.
I ALSO was having a lot of fun.

Basically, BoL does not read, or pay attention to posts.
He's just ready for the attach and doesn't really reply properly.
He either reads stuff INTO a post or takes ideas out of it.

Click to expand...

I think he's so used to a certain kind of anti-Catholic rant, he may jump to conclusions at times.

I guess it's difficult for some to admit when they're wrong or when they don't understand the topic at hand.

Yes..it's been fun! (I should do this more often!)

P.S. I can't remember ever hearing about the Infancy Gospels ... not even as an adult.
The CC does teach that we can't know everything for sure...they believe this about Judas too. (lost or saved). They use extra-biblical sources when it suits them....

Click to expand...

I've read some of the Infancy Gospels -- two I think. I think one has a story about him cursing someone who then dies.

CovenantPromise said:

The correct question is : "Is there salvation outside of Christ"? For an ax is not responsible for its own momentum nor a glove in its wearing. And clearly a church's strength is in obedience to Christ. We are not baptized in the name of our church or any man,we are baptized in the name of Christ. And church, is : "Wherever two or three are gathered in my name there too shall I be in the midst of them". Church is wherever the gospel of Jesus Christ is upheld as the STANDARD.

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I'm curious what would you say that Gospel is? When Jesus sent his disciples out to preach the Gospel, what were they preaching?

Giuliano said:

Who said they were?

Cana was a wedding, not a church service. How's that for interpreting Scripture?

Who said drinking was forbidden? Pay attention please. Leviticus and Isaiah are about priests drinking "on the job". . . . People should have known better, but Aaron's two sons got drunk and "offered strange fire." Moses was then told to tell the priests what they should have already known.

Click to expand...

And you ignorantly believe that Catholic priests get drunk during communion??

You actually believe that the tablespoon or so that they consume will make them intoxicated??

Jesus instituted the Eucharist at the Last Supper – using bread & WINE. He didn’t instruct the Apostles to guzzle down several bottles – and neither do the priests of today do this.

Your idiotic nitpicking to in a desperate attempt denigrate Catholicism have failed at every turn . . .

Grailhunter said:

O

I do not think anyone is going to contest that Baptism should occur. But beliefs differ. So some Protestants beliefs are that baptism is nothing more than a act of obedience and public display...I do not believe that. It should happen and it does mean something. Then if we do battling scriptures may ammo is over 200 scriptures indicating that faith alone is the requirement for salvation. No movement of the body required, in other words no works. How many scriptures do you want?

Click to expand...

Then you don’t know how to interpret Scripture.

If you are pitting verses against each other – you’re missing the point.

You can take 200 verses about the importance of faith on salvation. HOWEVEVER, you cannot simply discount the dozen or so that state the necessity of Baptism on salvation. They must harmonize. One verse doesn’t “cancel out” another – nor do 200 verses cancel out five or six.

This is the same idiocy that non-Trinitarians use when they try to deny the deity of Christ. They usually refer to John 20:17, when Jesus said:

“I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”

However, they completely ignore the DOZENS of verses that state emphatically that Jesus is also God.
The bible states emphatically that Baptism is NECESSARY for salvation (John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:23, Col. 2:9-15) – not just a “nice” thing to do . . .

BreadOfLife said:

And you ignorantly believe that Catholic priests get drunk during communion??

You actually believe that the tablespoon or so that they consume will make them intoxicated??

Jesus instituted the Eucharist at the Last Supper – using bread & WINE. He didn’t instruct the Apostles to guzzle down several bottles – and neither do the priests of today do this.

Your idiotic nitpicking to in a desperate attempt denigrate Catholicism have failed at every turn . . .

Click to expand...

Maybe some are consecrating too much wine? On purpose maybe?


This was an infamous case. Did you hear about it?


https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2011/03/akr

"Officers responded to an accident and found the man in the back seat hiding under a coat," Blough said. "He was intoxicated, so they took him to the police station. While the officer was filling out a form, Kury looked at him and said, 'Is there anything on the form about your eyebrows? Because they are gorgeous.' "

He was placed in a holding cell while police contacted someone to pick him up. Police said he then exposed himself.

"We normally do not videotape our holding cells, but he was acting so strangely that we felt we should," Blough said. "He acted very strange until a family member came and picked him up."

Blough said Kury's blood-alcohol level was 0.20 percent, more than twice the legal limit.

"I feel bad for the guy, he just kept saying such outrageous things," Blough said. "At one point he said, 'What do I have do to get out of here, give you a ... [sexual act]?' Then he said that Oprah Winfrey would come after us for what we did to him. He also said he was trying out for 'American Idol.' "

It is a problem. The good news is some people are doing things to help.

Guest House Treats Alcoholic Priests- The Arlington Catholic Herald

One of the most effective treatment and rehabilitation facilities in the world is Guest House, a center for alcoholic Catholic priests and religious in Lake Orion, Michigan. Since 1956 this center has treated over 5,000 priests, deacons, religious, and seminarians, helping them to break free of the bonds of addiction and return to their ministries renewed in their vocations. Guest House was established by Austin Ripley, a Catholic layman who recovered from alcoholism through Alcoholics Anonymous, Ripley was ahead of his time in recognizing that alcoholism was a disease and that often priests and religious were affected. He observed that few priests who tried A.A. were able to persevere in recovery and concluded that their special vocation meant they had special recovery needs. Ripley established Guest House as an environment that is serene, non-clinical, and confidential, where priests can feel safe and comfortable. Men who come there to begin recovery from alcoholism are treated with the utmost love and respect.

BreadOfLife said:

The bible states emphatically that Baptism is NECESSARY for salvation (John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:23, Col. 2:9-15) – not just a “nice” thing to do . . .

Click to expand...

Ever wonder about the thief on the cross?

BreadOfLife said:

Then you don’t know how to interpret Scripture.

If you are pitting verses against each other – you’re missing the point.

You can take 200 verses about the importance of faith on salvation. HOWEVEVER, you cannot simply discount the dozen or so that state the necessity of Baptism on salvation. They must harmonize. One verse doesn’t “cancel out” another – nor do 200 verses cancel out five or six.

This is the same idiocy that non-Trinitarians use when they try to deny the deity of Christ. They usually refer to John 20:17, when Jesus said:

“I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”

However, they completely ignore the DOZENS of verses that state emphatically that Jesus is also God.
The bible states emphatically that Baptism is NECESSARY for salvation (John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:23, Col. 2:9-15) – not just a “nice” thing to do . . .

Click to expand...

You are the one missing the point. You think your beliefs dominated 4th century Christianity and your are wrong. And I never said Baptism was not important. And if you have a dozen scriptures that support your interpretation but over a hundred that supports another interpretation you might consider the truth...Advise.....don't go to the psychiatrist and say, "Doc I do not understand, everyone has went crazy but me."
You might find yourself in a white jacket. Oh and on the harmonize thing, please get into that topic.

GodsGrace said:

For @Giuliano too

This is the first time I ever read a thread page after page.
I ALSO was having a lot of fun.

Basically, BoL does not read, or pay attention to posts.
He's just ready for the attach and doesn't really reply properly.
He either reads stuff INTO a post or takes ideas out of it.

I guess it's difficult for some to admit when they're wrong or when they don't understand the topic at hand.

Yes..it's been fun! (I should do this more often!)

P.S. I can't remember ever hearing about the Infancy Gospels ... not even as an adult.
The CC does teach that we can't know everything for sure...they believe this about Judas too. (lost or saved). They use extra-biblical sources when it suits them....

Click to expand...

And that was what I was wondering. Our Lady Mary Queen of Peace, Saint Rita, Saint Roch, Christ the King, and Bishop Dubourg, most of these had something to talk about in regard to the Infancy Gospels. Maybe it is an American thing. Christ had a childhood so people are curious.

Giuliano said:

Maybe some are consecrating too much wine? On purpose maybe?

This was an infamous case. Did you hear about it?

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2011/03/akr

"Officers responded to an accident and found the man in the back seat hiding under a coat," Blough said. "He was intoxicated, so they took him to the police station. While the officer was filling out a form, Kury looked at him and said, 'Is there anything on the form about your eyebrows? Because they are gorgeous.' "

He was placed in a holding cell while police contacted someone to pick him up. Police said he then exposed himself.

"We normally do not videotape our holding cells, but he was acting so strangely that we felt we should," Blough said. "He acted very strange until a family member came and picked him up."

Blough said Kury's blood-alcohol level was 0.20 percent, more than twice the legal limit.

"I feel bad for the guy, he just kept saying such outrageous things," Blough said. "At one point he said, 'What do I have do to get out of here, give you a ... [sexual act]?' Then he said that Oprah Winfrey would come after us for what we did to him. He also said he was trying out for 'American Idol.' "

It is a problem. The good news is some people are doing things to help.

Guest House Treats Alcoholic Priests- The Arlington Catholic Herald

One of the most effective treatment and rehabilitation facilities in the world is Guest House, a center for alcoholic Catholic priests and religious in Lake Orion, Michigan. Since 1956 this center has treated over 5,000 priests, deacons, religious, and seminarians, helping them to break free of the bonds of addiction and return to their ministries renewed in their vocations. Guest House was established by Austin Ripley, a Catholic layman who recovered from alcoholism through Alcoholics Anonymous, Ripley was ahead of his time in recognizing that alcoholism was a disease and that often priests and religious were affected. He observed that few priests who tried A.A. were able to persevere in recovery and concluded that their special vocation meant they had special recovery needs. Ripley established Guest House as an environment that is serene, non-clinical, and confidential, where priests can feel safe and comfortable. Men who come there to begin recovery from alcoholism are treated with the utmost love and respect.

Click to expand...

So there are some priests who are alcoholics – and YOU think its because they’re consuming too much consecrated altar wine during mass??

What an asinine observation. Apparently, you’ve never attended a mass. The priest literally takes a sip from the chalice.

Soooo, by your moronic logic – if there are overweight priests out there – it’s because they are eating WAY too many consecrated hosts. What kind of nonsense are you peddling?

This is one of the most idiotic anti-Catholic attacks I’ve ever heard – and I’ve heard some pretty stupid ones . . .

Giuliano said:

Ever wonder about the thief on the cross?

Click to expand...

The Thief on the Cross was an exception.

God can and DOES make exceptions.

Not everybody has the opportunity to be baptized. Like the Thief, they are blessed with the Baptism of Desire.