Rapture in Revelation: Two Witnesses

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101G

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metaphor, and or symbolism. each have it's place in the bible. but one must know when it is used.
here as in the whole book of Revelation, one must determine which is which and and what for, the bible do this for us. for 2Pet 1:20 states, "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation". so let the bible interpret, or explain itself. for example,
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed". here is a good example of this. the fire out of their mouths is not literal fire, but the "WORD OF GOD". let the bible speak, Jer 5:14 "Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them". so clearly the fire here in their mouths is the word of God. and the Lord Jesus and John the baptist both had fiery mouths. the Lord Jesus killed the pharisees and the sadducees with all the scribs (Lawyers) with the word of God, he reproved them all. and John had a fiery mouth that got his head cut off, (and the Lord Jesus cruxfied), both killed. he, John, confronted the king about his brother's wife. and many other things also. so both had fiery mouths, meaning they spoke the truth, God holy Word. and both was martyr, meaning one who bears "witness" by his death. was not the Lord Jesus the Faithful witness, Rev 1:5 "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood". was not also John a witness by death? John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe". and was it not Antipas, (king Herod) their excunitor, father and son? Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth".


so when it comes to symbolism, and or a metaphor, let the bible interpret itself and one cannot go wrong using God own words.

PICJAG.



.
 

Waiting on him

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metaphor, and or symbolism. each have it's place in the bible. but one must know when it is used.
here as in the whole book of Revelation, one must determine which is which and and what for, the bible do this for us. for 2Pet 1:20 states, "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation". so let the bible interpret, or explain itself. for example,
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed". here is a good example of this. the fire out of their mouths is not literal fire, but the "WORD OF GOD". let the bible speak, Jer 5:14 "Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them". so clearly the fire here in their mouths is the word of God. and the Lord Jesus and John the baptist both had fiery mouths. the Lord Jesus killed the pharisees and the sadducees with all the scribs (Lawyers) with the word of God, he reproved them all. and John had a fiery mouth that got his head cut off, (and the Lord Jesus cruxfied), both killed. he, John, confronted the king about his brother's wife. and many other things also. so both had fiery mouths, meaning they spoke the truth, God holy Word. and both was martyr, meaning one who bears "witness" by his death. was not the Lord Jesus the Faithful witness, Rev 1:5 "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood". was not also John a witness by death? John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe". and was it not Antipas, (king Herod) their excunitor, father and son? Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth".


so when it comes to symbolism, and or a metaphor, let the bible interpret itself and one cannot go wrong using God own words.

PICJAG.



.
Revelation 20:4 KJV
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Tecarta Bible
 

Davy

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no need to dump anything, just understand the scriptures. Rev 11:9 "And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves". as given of acts chapter 2, that covered this scripture above. Jerusalem was on an international trade route, so the enemies of the peoples, and kinfolk, diverse tongues of nations was in Jerusalem, even one who helped carry our Lord cross was of another nation. so we still stand on the scriptures. this is no metaphor, nor symbolism.

PICJAG.

I don't know where in the world you're getting that, "as given of acts chapter 2" idea for Rev.11:9. I do believe God's two witnesses will speak the cloven tongue of Pentecost during their time of prophecy. The time of their prophecy per Rev.11 is 1260 days. It will go out to all... nations, not just those in Jerusalem.

At the end of their time of prophecy, they are killed with their dead bodies left laying in the plaza at Jerusalem. Time of the cloven tongue manifesting through them is over when that happens.
 

101G

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I don't know where in the world you're getting that, "as given of acts chapter 2" idea for Rev.11:9. I do believe God's two witnesses will speak the cloven tongue of Pentecost during their time of prophecy. The time of their prophecy per Rev.11 is 1260 days. It will go out to all... nations, not just those in Jerusalem.

At the end of their time of prophecy, they are killed with their dead bodies left laying in the plaza at Jerusalem. Time of the cloven tongue manifesting through them is over when that happens.
first thanks for the reply, second we see you misunderstood us. the world came, or was at Jerusalem in witness to the crucifixion, the cloven tongue is another topic. the analogy of acts chapter 2 that we used was to show that the world was there at Jerusalem. so there is no need to write anything else into the scriptures, as like it must have been on CNN for the world to see. no, just one person from a nation who saw, or witness for all of that, or his nation. so all we was doing was making an analogy here.

PICJAG.
 

Waiting on him

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first thanks for the reply, second we see you misunderstood us. the world came, or was at Jerusalem in witness to the crucifixion, the cloven tongue is another topic. the analogy of acts chapter 2 that we used was to show that the world was there at Jerusalem. so there is no need to write anything else into the scriptures, as like it must have been on CNN for the world to see. no, just one person from a nation who saw, or witness for all of that, or his nation. so all we was doing was making an analogy here.

PICJAG.
We understand, it’s where He chose to stake Him up for the world to see, right there in the religious capital of the world.
 

Davy

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first thanks for the reply, second we see you misunderstood us. the world came, or was at Jerusalem in witness to the crucifixion, the cloven tongue is another topic. the analogy of acts chapter 2 that we used was to show that the world was there at Jerusalem. so there is no need to write anything else into the scriptures, as like it must have been on CNN for the world to see. no, just one person from a nation who saw, or witness for all of that, or his nation. so all we was doing was making an analogy here.

PICJAG.

The Revelation 11 events haven't happened yet. So it's crazy to even do the kind of speculation you're doing, because Acts 2 is past history. The peoples present at Pentecost in Acts 2 are NOT... the same peoples in Rev.11:9. The difference is that in Acts 2 we are told those peoples from every nation were gathered there in one place. No such idea in the Rev.11 Scripture.

So it's not me that is trying to add to The Scripture, like you try to accuse me of. It is you that is trying to add to the Rev.11 Scripture. In Rev.11 it's speaking of the whole... world.

Rev 11:9-10
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
KJV
 

101G

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We understand, it’s where He chose to stake Him up for the world to see, right there in the religious capital of the world.
BINGO, correct, thank you. could not have said it better myself. if you don't mind I would like to use that please.
again, thank you.

PICJAG.
 

Naomi25

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Why have you assumed that the two witnesses in Revelation 11 are churches? There is absolutely nothing to justify that interpretation.

Ah...nothing? How about scripture?

As for the mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands, the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches. -Revelation 1:20

We are TOLD the lampstands ARE the Churches. And, surprise, surprise, there are only two faithful churches to be found in the letters sent out.

While not absolute proof that this is who the two witnesses are, it is still biblical evidence pointing directly towards it, and therefore deserves keen and sincere debate, not scorn and belittlement.
 
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Enoch111

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We are TOLD the lampstands ARE the Churches.
Yes. And we are told in Revelation 11 that the two lampstands (candlesticks in the KJV) are PROPHETS.

So should we not go by what is in Revelation 11, when it is plain as day that these are two individuals who are actually prophets and also called witnesses, but are metaphorically called lampstands and olive trees?

Those metaphors indicate the power of the Holy Spirit operating in and through them, therefore they do many miracles, and also preach the Gospel with great impact.
 
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Naomi25

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Yes. And we are told in Revelation 11 that the two lampstands (candlesticks in the KJV) are PROPHETS.

So should we not go by what is in Revelation 11, when it is plain as day that these are two individuals who are actually prophets and also called witnesses, but are metaphorically called lampstands and olive trees?

Those metaphors indicate the power of the Holy Spirit operating in and through them, therefore they do many miracles, and also preach the Gospel with great impact.
We are also told Jesus is a lamb and a lion, and yet I don't see you insisting upon a literal interpretation for that. It is quite possible for the two witnesses to be the Church. Prophets were 'truth tellers' a good portion of the time, sometimes even more often than 'foretellers'. Are the two witnesses not called upon to declare truth? To call judgement down upon those who ignore the truth? Is that not a clear calling for the Church? Now or in any time? And is not the Church persecuted for such pronoucements?
 

Davy

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The two witnesses are two flesh men, simply because their flesh bodies are killed and lay in the street of Jerusalem.

But mention of two candlesticks is about 2 Churches that represent some of Christ's elect in the nations that will give a Witness for Him, as written...

Mark 13:9-11
9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them.

10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

KJV

I understand why those on the Pre-trib Rapture theory would miss that event our Lord Jesus forewarned us about. It's because their teachers are deceived and say that is only meant for the Jews in Jerusalem and not for Christ's Church. It is in fact emphatically... meant for Christ's Church during the great tribulation, and that is the timing of God's two witnesses in Rev.11 also. Only those with The Holy Spirit will be able to give that Testimony against them for Jesus. That means Christians, period.
 

Enoch111

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The two witnesses are two flesh men, simply because their flesh bodies are killed and lay in the street of Jerusalem.

But mention of two candlesticks is about 2 Churches that represent some of Christ's elect in the nations that will give a Witness for Him, as written...
You are suggesting that there are two different things being presented in Revelation 11 -- two individuals and two churches. But since those individuals are metaphorically called candlesticks and olive trees, there is no justification for bring churches into the picture.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth....

So the same TWO witnesses (mentioned as "these") are also prophets who are metaphorically olive trees and candlesticks.
 

Waiting on him

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Yes. And we are told in Revelation 11 that the two lampstands (candlesticks in the KJV) are PROPHETS.

So should we not go by what is in Revelation 11, when it is plain as day that these are two individuals who are actually prophets and also called witnesses, but are metaphorically called lampstands and olive trees?

Those metaphors indicate the power of the Holy Spirit operating in and through them, therefore they do many miracles, and also preach the Gospel with great impact.
Sounds like the church to me too.
 

101G

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Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth".
sackcloth? penance, prophesy? preach. the thousand two hundred and threescore days, or 42 months is the exact time of the Lord Jesus ministry... 3 1/2 years.

PICJAG.
 

Davy

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You are suggesting that there are two different things being presented in Revelation 11 -- two individuals and two churches. But since those individuals are metaphorically called candlesticks and olive trees, there is no justification for bring churches into the picture.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth....

So the same TWO witnesses (mentioned as "these") are also prophets who are metaphorically olive trees and candlesticks.

Rev 1:20
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

KJV

Not suggesting, Jesus revealed it. The candlesticks that Apostle John was shown represent the seven Churches.

Either one listens to Him, or they listen to other things (doctrines of men).

Lot of brethren haven't put simply two and two together for the end involving the Testimony some saints will give by The Holy Spirit at the end (Mark 13). It is also what the Joel 2 quote is about that Apostle Peter quoted in Acts 2 about the cloven tongue. God is going to speak to all nations through His elect during the tribulation, by The Holy Spirit speaking the cloven tongue through His delivered up saints. The two candlesticks represents those two Churches of Christ's elect that will have that duty for the end. They are the symbolic Churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia.
 

Davy

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Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth".
sackcloth? penance, prophesy? preach. the thousand two hundred and threescore days, or 42 months is the exact time of the Lord Jesus ministry... 3 1/2 years.

PICJAG.

Nah, that's based on the assumption that His appearance to His disciples after His death and resurrection be included. He didn't appear in public then, but to His disciples only. 3 years was the time of His public Ministry.

Some like to wrongly assume the final 70th week in the Book of Daniel as having already been fulfilled, so they try to prove that the 70th week prophecy was completed and applied to Christ's Ministry. So stretching Christ's Ministry to 3 and 1/2 years is designed to make it fit the 1260 days of the latter half of the symbolic "one week" (final 70th week). Doing that is adding to Scripture though.

Moreover, the 42 months idea in Rev.11 and 13 is about Satan and his hosts. Prophecy given in months there represents Satan's working.
 

101G

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ah, that's based on the assumption that His appearance to His disciples after His death and resurrection be included. He didn't appear in public then, but to His disciples only. 3 years was the time of His public Ministry.
you error, no assumption, bible facts. also he did appear in piblic to other beside the 12 apostles after his death and resurrection.
1Cor 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1Cor 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1Cor 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

it's amazing how people get stuck on something and refused to believe. the two witness are men, not two churches. and these two men witness is still in the earth to day. and every church, every abide, or at least suppose to abide in each one of the two wistness doctrine. #1. baptism, which John did. and #2. the preaching of the gospel, ....... of the Lord Jesus.
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

BINGO, THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST, AND THE WATER BAPTISM OF JOHN.

PICJAG.
 
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07-07-07

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There's plenty enough Scripture to show that Christ's faithful will be here for the time of "great tribulation" He warned His Church about for the very end. Even in Luke 21 He said for those of His in the countries to not enter into Jerusalem when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies (Luke 21:21). That should have showed you how those two Churches, i.e., candlesticks, don't have to all be in Jerusalem, but are scattered throughout the countries.

Except the Scripture points to it:

Revelation 11
[7] And when they [the Two Witnesses] shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
[8] And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Jesus was crucified just outside of the gate of Jerusalem.