Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

BreadOfLife · Sep 19, 2019

Grailhunter said:
And there is were you and the Church get into trouble, no form of reason or scriptural truth will get through that mind of man-made beliefs. That is why I call it cultic, not that the Catholic Church is a cult, but it can possess the mind. Whether you are a man or a Church that proclaims themselves perfect or infallible, it produces an alternate reality that defies all that is real. The issues of the Church can never be corrected as long as everyone has their head in the sand, cannot be corrected if corrections are not permitted, cannot be corrected if correction is an admission that the doctrines are in error. A vicious circle of denial of the truth. It would be no surprise that if anyone proclaims themselves perfect that some will point out that, that is not possible in this world. Christians understand that no one is perfect, no one, no denomination, but when you say perfect, that is going to draw fire. Priests are not perfect and preachers are not perfect, but a church will kick a preacher out. I know, I have been there. The Catholic Church is better than it has ever been, but it has a lot of room for improvement. To some degree because of this concept of perfection, some hold them to higher standard, and to some degree that is a compliant. The Catholic Church is the single largest religion in the world, not just denomination. Therefore it is in everyone's best interest that the Catholic Church continues to improve. I will dare say that it would be the desire of God, that the Catholic Church continues to improve.

Believe it or not – I’m enjoying our conversation . . .

With that said – I think you are under a couple of erroneous assumptions. The Church is not “perfect” – nor is the Pope. In fact, the Pope is not infallible. He is ONLY considered to be infallible in matters of teaching faith and morals – and it’s NOT because HE is special. It is because if the guidance of the Holy spirit. Jesus guaranteed that the Holy Spirit would guide His Church to ALL truth (John 16:12-15).

However, this doesn’t mean that the individual leaders wouldn’t screw up on their own. It means that the Holy Spirit would only allow them to teach the truth.

And make no mistake – Scripture does NOT teach that salvation is a free gift that requires “nothing” from us. It requires our FAITH – and our cooperation (Matt. 7:21, Gal. 5:6, James 2:19-24)

Philip James · Sep 19, 2019

Grailhunter said:
no form of reason or scriptural truth will get through that mind of man-made beliefs...... Whether you are a man or a Church that proclaims themselves perfect or infallible, it produces an alternate reality that defies all that is real.

You have said it right there!

Now if you are the Church that Jesus founded through the apostles, you are perfected through your union with Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit,

'and the gates of hell will not prevail against it'

And I would expect said Church to not only claim that perfection, but to do so based on FAITH in the Holy Spirit to 'lead us into all Truth'

By your very own statement, you show that a supernaturally infallible Church Is necessary, to prevent people from falling into an alternate Christianity of their own making.

This is why it is imperative that we must be willing to submit our understanding to the mind of the Church!

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Peace be with you!

CovenantPromise · Sep 19, 2019

Giuliano said:
Where in all that does it say it rained at the crucifixion? I may disagree with Bread of Life on other things; but I see no reason to disagree with him about this.

Oh my bad . I was adding accounts from Vatican archives :Acta Pilati (Pilates report to Caesar) about how the author of nature suffered and how nature itself gave testimony to that. There was a great clamor and wind and the city was covered with a veil. I think a post should be made concerning the historical accounts of Christ's death by eyewitnesses not necessarily of scripture only. But I apologizes for blending the two, HISTORICAL accounts and historical biblical accounts.I write from memory of my many studies a lot of times.

But in any case for me from a faith without question stance, I know that God's word comes back to Him fruitful because he said so. So I know the thief was baptized and the water which gushed forth from Christ's side brought it about. And the rocks splitting was a nod to Moses when he split the rock with the staff and water came forth. I mean after all Christ is the Waters of Life.

BreadOfLife · Sep 19, 2019

Giuliano said:
So some things that used to sins aren't sins anymore? Is that what you're saying? Earlier you wrote, "As I stated before - the Pope has never declared a sin, no longer a sin - and definitely NOT ex cathedra." I then asked, "Tell us all then why a Pope couldn't make any statement he wanted ex cathedra and make it binding?" You answered, "Because he is guided by the HOLY SPIRIT to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15). And the Holy Spirit doesn't screw up . . ."

Later you wrote,"Then, if YOU believe that the Holy Spirit is a hypocrite - or that He contradicts Himself - then YOU'VE invented a different god for yourself than the God of Scripture." Now you are saying the Holy Spirit did contradict Himself. First God inspired Moses to forbid priests drinking wine on the job; now you're saying God changed His Mind, and it's okay.

So if that could change from being a sin into not being a sin, why couldn't the Pope decree something is no longer a sin?

I don’t know who gets the award for “Most Dishonest Poster” – YOU or Taken.
This is an absolute LIE. I never said that some things that were sins before are “no longer” sins.

A Levitical priest drinking in the Tabernacle wasn’t a sin. It was a PROHIBITION. The sin was disobedience – which is ALWAYS a sin. Besides – the Levitical Priesthood is OVER. It was fulfilled in Christ – or did you forget the lesson I taught you in my last post (Matt. 5:17, Col. 2:16-17).

Like I admonished you before – stop quoting the Bible until you LEARN what it means . . .

CovenantPromise · Sep 19, 2019

Giuliano if you are a protestant then I will stay within the bounds of scripture for you. But the Vatican has many, many historical documents preserved that attest to the convulsing of all of nature at Christ's death. Not just an earthquake and the universe itself answering with an unprecedented eclipse . Even in China there is record of it and the cosmic events associated with Christ's birth. I find the secular accounts of Christ's crucifixion are very useful in helping atheist.

CovenantPromise · Sep 19, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
Believe it or not – I’m enjoying our conversation . . .

With that said – I think you are under a couple of erroneous assumptions. The Church is not “perfect” – nor is the Pope. In fact, the Pope is not infallible. He is ONLY considered to be infallible in matters of teaching faith and morals – and it’s NOT because HE is special. It is because if the guidance of the Holy spirit. Jesus guaranteed that the Holy Spirit would guide His Church to ALL truth (John 16:12-15).

However, this doesn’t mean that the individual leaders wouldn’t screw up on their own. It means that the Holy Spirit would only allow them to teach the truth.

And make no mistake – Scripture does NOT teach that salvation is a free gift that requires “nothing” from us. It requires our FAITH – and our cooperation (Matt. 7:21, Gal. 5:6, James 2:19-24)

Well Jorge has not been doing a good job of that." He is ONLY considered to be infallible in matters of teaching faith and morals" I only address that to you if you believe he is a truly elected Pope.

God Bless!

CovenantPromise · Sep 19, 2019

Giuliano said:
Maybe some are consecrating too much wine? On purpose maybe?

This was an infamous case. Did you hear about it?

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2011/03/akr

"Officers responded to an accident and found the man in the back seat hiding under a coat," Blough said. "He was intoxicated, so they took him to the police station. While the officer was filling out a form, Kury looked at him and said, 'Is there anything on the form about your eyebrows? Because they are gorgeous.' "

He was placed in a holding cell while police contacted someone to pick him up. Police said he then exposed himself.

"We normally do not videotape our holding cells, but he was acting so strangely that we felt we should," Blough said. "He acted very strange until a family member came and picked him up."

Blough said Kury's blood-alcohol level was 0.20 percent, more than twice the legal limit.

"I feel bad for the guy, he just kept saying such outrageous things," Blough said. "At one point he said, 'What do I have do to get out of here, give you a ... [sexual act]?' Then he said that Oprah Winfrey would come after us for what we did to him. He also said he was trying out for 'American Idol.' "

It is a problem. The good news is some people are doing things to help.

Guest House Treats Alcoholic Priests- The Arlington Catholic Herald

One of the most effective treatment and rehabilitation facilities in the world is Guest House, a center for alcoholic Catholic priests and religious in Lake Orion, Michigan. Since 1956 this center has treated over 5,000 priests, deacons, religious, and seminarians, helping them to break free of the bonds of addiction and return to their ministries renewed in their vocations. Guest House was established by Austin Ripley, a Catholic layman who recovered from alcoholism through Alcoholics Anonymous, Ripley was ahead of his time in recognizing that alcoholism was a disease and that often priests and religious were affected. He observed that few priests who tried A.A. were able to persevere in recovery and concluded that their special vocation meant they had special recovery needs. Ripley established Guest House as an environment that is serene, non-clinical, and confidential, where priests can feel safe and comfortable. Men who come there to begin recovery from alcoholism are treated with the utmost love and respect.

Exactly why I say the priesthood must be holy. What is even more disturbing than the fact that this priest is potted , is he is clearly gay. I know men who are straight and potted are not interested in men's eyebrows. And that gay lisp or drawl- very telling.

CovenantPromise · Sep 19, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
The Thief on the Cross was an exception.

God can and DOES make exceptions.

Not everybody has the opportunity to be baptized. Like the Thief, they are blessed with the Baptism of Desire.

Do you know what I find funny, is this Baptism of desire is not in scripture, just as Guiliano pointed out that the scriptures do not state if it rained or not. But he will take that doctrine which is unsubstantiated by the Word that you speak and have been coached in through tradition. But will not accept that God's Word comes back to Him fruitful ,as God clearly states. So I will speak as creating a new tradition. For the church has to accept what is most in Line with the Word of God.
Isaiah 55:10-12
…10For just as rain and snow fall from heaven and do not return without watering the earth, making it bud and sprout, and providing seed to sow and food to eat, 11so My word that proceeds from My mouth will not return to Me empty, but it will accomplish what I please, and it will prosper where I send it. 12You will indeed go out with joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands.…

Interesting...... He compares His word to water which falls from the heavens as returning having fulfilled its purpose.

1John 5:7-9
Overcoming the World
…7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit, the water, and the blood— and these three are in agreement. 9Even if we accept human testimony, the testimony of God is greater. For this is the testimony that God has given about His Son.…

John3:4_6
Jesus and Nicodemus
…4“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time to be born?” 5Jesus answered,, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit.…

So since there is no proof of what you say, and there is definitely more supporting evidence for my account . I will go with God's word and the Historical accounts of eyewitnesses like Pilot to further bolster up the fact, that God says what He means and means what He says. My argument holds more weight than yours and the balance weighs heavily in my favor.The thief on the cross was baptized by water during Christ's crucifixion. The water and blood from His side and the rocks splitting are speaking to the living waters breaking forth from the Spirit of Christ.

CovenantPromise · Sep 19, 2019

In the scriptures does it speak of the Holy Spirit too as living waters? It is just like the dew which was upon the Ark of the OC , and that dew would too be upon Mother Mary who is that of the New Covenant . For when the power of the most high overshadowed the OC ark there was dew upon it. But this is all done by God Himself. It would be the same with or without rain (concerning scriptural accounts). That thief on the cross would have had to had a water baptism, not according to my word but God's own word.

CovenantPromise · Sep 19, 2019

Hebrews 13:7-9
Christ's Unchanging Nature
…7Remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. 8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. 9Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace and not by foods of no value to those devoted to them.…

To say a concession was made is to imply a change of mind. No change of mind. I know Christ baptized the thief on the cross.God is the same yesterday , today and forever.

God Bless!

BreadOfLife · Sep 19, 2019

CovenantPromise said:
Well Jorge has not been doing a good job of that." He is ONLY considered to be infallible in matters of teaching faith and morals" I only address that to you if you believe he is a truly elected Pope.

God Bless!

Yes, I believe he is a truly elected Pope.
No reason to think otherwise.

He's not my favorite Pope by any means, but he has not taught heresy.
But, then - I'm a John Paul the Great fan . . .

BreadOfLife · Sep 19, 2019

CovenantPromise said:
Do you know what I find funny, is this Baptism of desire is not in scripture, just as Guiliano pointed out that the scriptures do not state if it rained or not. But he will take that doctrine which is unsubstantiated by the Word that you speak and have been coached in through tradition. But will not accept that God's Word comes back to Him fruitful ,as God clearly states. So I will speak as creating a new tradition. For the church has to accept what is most in Line with the Word of God.
Isaiah 55:10-12
…10For just as rain and snow fall from heaven and do not return without watering the earth, making it bud and sprout, and providing seed to sow and food to eat, 11so My word that proceeds from My mouth will not return to Me empty, but it will accomplish what I please, and it will prosper where I send it. 12You will indeed go out with joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands.…

Interesting...... He compares His word to water which falls from the heavens as returning having fulfilled its purpose.

1John 5:7-9
Overcoming the World
…7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit, the water, and the blood— and these three are in agreement. 9Even if we accept human testimony, the testimony of God is greater. For this is the testimony that God has given about His Son.…

John3:4_6
Jesus and Nicodemus
…4“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time to be born?” 5Jesus answered,, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit.…

So since there is no proof of what you say, and there is definitely more supporting evidence for my account . I will go with God's word and the Historical accounts of eyewitnesses like Pilot to further bolster up the fact, that God says what He means and means what He says. My argument holds more weight than yours and the balance weighs heavily in my favor.The thief on the cross was baptized by water during Christ's crucifixion. The water and blood from His side and the rocks splitting are speaking to the living waters breaking forth from the Spirit of Christ.

I wouldn't count out the idea that it may have rained at the Crucifixion. However - NOT everything we believe as Christians is explicitly stated in Scripture. For example - nowhere is the Trinity mentioned - yet it is one of the basic tenets of Christianity. We also never read the word "Incarnation" - yet, this is another basic tenet of the faith.

All this being said - I don't think it's necessary for the Thief on the cross to have gotten wet to have been Baptized. He was Baptized with the Baptism of Desire. Christ gave His Church SUPREME Authority on earth - that WHATEVER His Church ordained on earth would also be ordained in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, John 20:21-23). He promised His Church that the Holy Spirit would guide it to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15).
He told the leaders of His Church that whoever listened to or rejected His Church, listed to or rejected HIM and the ONE who sent Him.

If the Church teaches the Baptism of Desire - then I believe it because CHRIST said that it was true.

CovenantPromise · Sep 19, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
I wouldn't count out the idea that it may have rained at the Crucifixion. However - NOT everything we believe as Christians is explicitly stated in Scripture. For example - nowhere is the Trinity mentioned - yet it is one of the basic tenets of Christianity. We also never read the word "Incarnation" - yet, this is another basic tenet of the faith.

All this being said - I don't think it's necessary for the Thief on the cross to have gotten wet to have been Baptized. He was Baptized with the Baptism of Desire. Christ gave His Church SUPREME Authority on earth - that WHATEVER His Church ordained on earth would also be ordained in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, John 20:21-23). He promised His Church that the Holy Spirit would guide it to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15).
He told the leaders of His Church that whoever listened to or rejected His Church, listed to or rejected HIM and the ONE who sent Him.

If the Church teaches the Baptism of Desire - then I believe it because CHRIST said that it was true.

No not always explicitly, but the equation is always there.The church has no supreme authority if it rejects the supreme authority. And He said what He said and the thief on the cross, based on what He said, was baptized .He would have to be, based solely on God's word. It is kind of like you said before. Just because he did not or it may not be spoken of in specifics in one place, but, is conveyed throughout the scriptures in other places, does not mean it does not apply in the for instance we are discussing. The thief on the cross does not delete out what Christ has said throughout His word. And His word prospers wherever he sends it. Luke 23:42-43
The Crucifixion
…42Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!” 43And Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
John 3:5
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom
of God.

God is not the author of confusion, that man was baptized according to God's own words. You can believe men's over His all you want. I take Him at His word.
Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom
of God.

You speak what you have always known , I will continue in the new song Rev.14, it is the everlasting gospel. God Bless!

CovenantPromise · Sep 19, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
Yes, I believe he is a truly elected Pope.
No reason to think otherwise.

He's not my favorite Pope by any means, but he has not taught heresy.
But, then - I'm a John Paul the Great fan . . .

Well that depends on who you ask and what the scriptures say.
God Bless!

BreadOfLife · Sep 19, 2019

CovenantPromise said:
No not always explicitly, but the equation is always there.The church has no supreme authority if it rejects the supreme authority. And He said what He said and the thief on the cross, based on what He said, was baptized .He would have to be, based solely on God's word. It is kind of like you said before. Just because he did not or it may not be spoken of in specifics in one place, but, is conveyed throughout the scriptures in other places, does not mean it does not apply in the for instance we are discussing. The thief on the cross does not delete out what Christ has said throughout His word. And His word prospers wherever he sends it. Luke 23:42-43
The Crucifixion
…42Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!” 43And Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
John 3:5
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom
of God.

God is not the author of confusion, that man was baptized according to God's own words. You can believe men's over His all you want. I take Him at His word.
Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom
of God.

You speak what you have always known , I will continue in the new song Rev.14, it is the everlasting gospel. God Bless!

And you should pray that God isn't as wooden and literal as YOU take His word.
The Thief on the cross is an exception. He was kind of "busy" and didn't have time to be baptized - yet Christ told him that he was saved based on his faith.

Baptism is the norm - but God DOES make exceptions - and this is a perfect case.
Another is aborted babies. Do you believe that they burn in hell because they weren't Baptized?

CovenantPromise · Sep 19, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
And you should pray that God isn't as wooden and literal as YOU take His word.
The Thief on the cross is an exception. He was kind of "busy" and didn't have time to be baptized - yet Christ told him that he was saved based on his faith.

Baptism is the norm - but God DOES make exceptions - and this is a perfect case.
Another is aborted babies. Do you believe that they burn in hell because they weren't Baptized?

I am not the one putting limits on what Christ can do, you are. And why would what I say give you concern? It is without a doubt possible for Christ do exactly what I said. The only wooden thing is when men think that every single doctrine which comes out of the RCC is infallible. No matter what you say, what I say shows full trust in the Lord and His word. If you disagree that is your choice . But my choice is clear, I trust in the Lord and do not lean on my own understanding nor second guess His authority and word.

As for anyone being busy......Well Christ was busy about His Father's business and He took care of business according to His word . Christ made sure that man was baptized according to His righteous Words.
Psalm 12:5-7
…5“For the cause of the oppressed and for the groaning of the needy, I will now arise,” says the LORD. “I will bring safety to him who yearns.” 6The words of the LORD are flawless, like silver refined in a furnace, like gold purified sevenfold. 7You, O LORD, will keep us; You will forever guard us from this generation.…

Why would it bother you if Christ baptized that man? Is it because it would uphold His own Words or discredit your men's?

God Bless!

Giuliano · Sep 19, 2019

CovenantPromise said:
Oh my bad . I was adding accounts from Vatican archives :Acta Pilati (Pilates report to Caesar) about how the author of nature suffered and how nature itself gave testimony to that. There was a great clamor and wind and the city was covered with a veil. I think a post should be made concerning the historical accounts of Christ's death by eyewitnesses not necessarily of scripture only. But I apologizes for blending the two, HISTORICAL accounts and historical biblical accounts.I write from memory of my many studies a lot of times.

But in any case for me from a faith without question stance, I know that God's word comes back to Him fruitful because he said so. So I know the thief was baptized and the water which gushed forth from Christ's side brought it about. And the rocks splitting was a nod to Moses when he split the rock with the staff and water came forth. I mean after all Christ is the Waters of Life.

I wouldn't give Acta Pilati too much credence unless you also want to believe Satan was bound in Hades.

I also wouldn't equate Jesus with the Waters of Life.

CovenantPromise said:
Giuliano if you are a protestant then I will stay within the bounds of scripture for you. But the Vatican has many, many historical documents preserved that attest to the convulsing of all of nature at Christ's death. Not just an earthquake and the universe itself answering with an unprecedented eclipse . Even in China there is record of it and the cosmic events associated with Christ's birth. I find the secular accounts of Christ's crucifixion are very useful in helping atheist.

I doubt you could produce credible evidence of a solar eclipse.

Crucifixion darkness - Wikipedia

The Gospel of Luke account states "and the sun was darkened". However, the biblical details do not accord with an eclipse: a solar eclipse could not have occurred on or near the Passover, when Jesus was crucified, and would have been too brief to account for three hours of darkness. The maximum possible duration of a total solar eclipse is seven minutes and 31.1 seconds. The only total eclipse visible in Jerusalem in this era occurred late in the year AD 29, on 24 November at 11:05 AM. Around the Sea of Galilee, it would have been visible for just one minute and forty-nine seconds.

Giuliano · Sep 19, 2019

CovenantPromise said:
Exactly why I say the priesthood must be holy. What is even more disturbing than the fact that this priest is potted , is he is clearly gay. I know men who are straight and potted are not interested in men's eyebrows. And that gay lisp or drawl- very telling.

We can hope that soon the Church will allow married priests.

Giuliano · Sep 19, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
I don’t know who gets the award for “Most Dishonest Poster” – YOU or Taken.
This is an absolute LIE. I never said that some things that were sins before are “no longer” sins.

A Levitical priest drinking in the Tabernacle wasn’t a sin. It was a PROHIBITION. The sin was disobedience – which is ALWAYS a sin. Besides – the Levitical Priesthood is OVER. It was fulfilled in Christ – or did you forget the lesson I taught you in my last post (Matt. 5:17, Col. 2:16-17).

Like I admonished you before – stop quoting the Bible until you LEARN what it means . . .

I would call your redefining words dishonest. Sin is breaking the law.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

It was a sin. Now you say things were changed.

GodsGrace · Sep 20, 2019

Grailhunter said:
And that was what I was wondering. Our Lady Mary Queen of Peace, Saint Rita, Saint Roch, Christ the King, and Bishop Dubourg, most of these had something to talk about in regard to the Infancy Gospels. Maybe it is an American thing. Christ had a childhood so people are curious.

I grew up in the states.
I read something once about Jesus making a dead bird come back to life when He was a little boy.
These accounts could be true....
The writers of the gospels were not interested in Jesus' boyhood and could very well have left it out even though they knew some details about it...especially Luke since he actually studied Jesus' life from those that knew Him.

I just don't know, really, what good it would do to know anything about Him when He was little.
I guess it could be interesting. Have never really thought about it.

Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

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