Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

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GodsGrace

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Yes.
You made this claim back in post #1337.

I told you that I would expose you every you lie . . .
I don't MAKE CLAIMS.
I tell what the catholic church is teaching.

If you wish to discuss my post no. 1337, you'll have to copy and paste it.
I NEVER say what I don't mean or change my mind.

If I said it in post 1337...I'll REPEAT IT AGAIN AND AGAIN because I know I told what IS...
and NOT what YOU think is or what YOU THINK I said.

I've noticed you don't follow conversations very well.
 

Giuliano

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Why would it bother you if Christ baptized that man? Is it because it would uphold His own Words or discredit your men's?

God Bless!
I met a woman from England online years ago. She had been a practicing Wiccan once, but then she started to go to church and believe in Jesus. No one ever talked to her about baptism, she didn't give it much thought. One day she was sitting in the church. She said it was as if a wall or water poured over her, making her feel very blessed and happy. I thought it sounded to me as if she had been baptized spiritually and she agreed. I think the thief was also baptized spiritually. Yes, by Jesus too, but not by using physical water.
 

Giuliano

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I grew up in the states.
I read something once about Jesus making a dead bird come back to life when He was a little boy.
These accounts could be true....
The writers of the gospels were not interested in Jesus' boyhood and could very well have left it out even though they knew some details about it...especially Luke since he actually studied Jesus' life from those that knew Him.

I just don't know, really, what good it would do to know anything about Him when He was little.
I guess it could be interesting. Have never really thought about it.
I doubt any of the Infancy Gospels are that real. I get the idea that Luke may have dragged things out of Mary by telling her it was important for people to know. Mary seems to have been discrete, not given to talking too much.

Luke 2:19 But Mary kept all these things, and pondered them in her heart.

If only more people could be like her, willing to ponder things in their hearts. . . .
 
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Giuliano

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I don’t know who gets the award for “Most Dishonest Poster”YOU or Taken.
This is an absolute LIE. I never said that some things that were sins before are “no longer” sins.
I see Philip James liked this post. I was disappointed I'll admit, but I always try to be realistic in life. Now I know he likely approves of Bread of Life saying I might be the "Most Dishonest Poster."

A Levitical priest drinking in the Tabernacle wasn’t a sin. It was a PROHIBITION. The sin was disobedience – which is ALWAYS a sin. Besides – the Levitical Priesthood is OVER. It was fulfilled in Christ – or did you forget the lesson I taught you in my last post (Matt. 5:17, Col. 2:16-17).

Like I admonished you before – stop quoting the Bible until you LEARN what it means . . .
You're not a bishop; you're not a priest even, so why pretend you are other people's boss? Go join a Catholic site. Bury yourself in Catholic writings. Listen to Catholic music. Recite the Rosary. Make yourself happy.

And oh yes, if you get the time, you might want to read your Bible. You say I don't know what it means? I say you never read yours. If you did, you forgot what you read. Why do I say that? You did not know what blood got shed in the covenants God made with Abraham and Noah. Now you have the stunning audacity to "admonish" me to stop quoting the Bible until I learn what it means? I say you should read yours before pretending to know what it means. I didn't try to embarrass for your ignorance about that before; but I think you richly deserve being embarrassed after this. For shame!
 

epostle

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No not always explicitly, but the equation is always there.The church has no supreme authority if it rejects the supreme authority.
That is IMPOSSIBLE according to the Bible.
And He said what He said and the thief on the cross, based on what He said, was baptized .He would have to be, based solely on God's word. It is kind of like you said before. Just because he did not or it may not be spoken of in specifics in one place, but, is conveyed throughout the scriptures in other places, does not mean it does not apply in the for instance we are discussing. The thief on the cross does not delete out what Christ has said throughout His word. And His word prospers wherever he sends it. Luke 23:42-43
The Crucifixion
…42Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!” 43And Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
John 3:5
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom
of God.

God is not the author of confusion, that man was baptized according to God's own words. You can believe men's over His all you want. I take Him at His word.
Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom
of God.
You and BofL are arguing over what you agree on. Baptism of desire, both/and the baptism of blood, does not negate John 3:5. Confusion comes from a misunderstanding of baptism: we die with Christ and rise with Him. The essence of water baptism exists in the baptism of desire, both/and the baptism of blood. Further confusion comes from the meaning of "Paradise", or the Bosom of Abraham, which is not heaven.

Then there is the ecumenism of blood, which is off topic and an entirely different thing. Christians of all faiths and stripes who are killed for their faith have something very powerful in common that urges us to go forward on the path to full Christian unity.
 
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GodsGrace

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I see Philip James liked this post. I was disappointed I'll admit, but I always try to be realistic in life. Now I know he likely approves of Bread of Life saying I might be the "Most Dishonest Poster."


You're not a bishop; you're not a priest even, so why pretend you are other people's boss? Go join a Catholic site. Bury yourself in Catholic writings. Listen to Catholic music. Recite the Rosary. Make yourself happy.

And oh yes, if you get the time, you might want to read your Bible. You say I don't know what it means? I say you never read yours. If you did, you forgot what you read. Why do I say that? You did not know what blood got shed in the covenants God made with Abraham and Noah. Now you have the stunning audacity to "admonish" me to stop quoting the Bible until I learn what it means? I say you should read yours before pretending to know what it means. I didn't try to embarrass for your ignorance about that before; but I think you richly deserve being embarrassed after this. For shame!
I gave up a long time ago.
As to sin....before it was a sin to remarry and receive communion.
Now it is no longer a sin....according to this very Pope...
Amores Laetitia chapter 8 footnote 351 (maybe 350).

Before you had to go to confession every time before receiving communion...
Now you only have to go to confession for mortal sins.

I seem to see changes BoL doesn't see.
 
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epostle

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I am not the one putting limits on what Christ can do, you are. And why would what I say give you concern? It is without a doubt possible for Christ do exactly what I said. The only wooden thing is when men think that every single doctrine which comes out of the RCC is infallible.
What is wooden is this chronic redefinition of terms like "doctrine" and "infallible". Using the same terms with entirely different meanings is what makes discussions like these so frustrating. In order for anything to be a doctrine, it must flow from what has been divinely revealed from Jesus and the Apostles, by word or letter. Infallibility is a gift from God that prevents teaching on faith and morals from falling into error.

Matt. 10:20; Luke 12:12 – Jesus tells His apostles it is not they who speak, but the Spirit of their Father speaking through them. If the Spirit is the one speaking and leading the Church, the Church cannot err on matters of faith and morals.

Matt. 16:18 – Jesus promises the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church. This requires that the Church teach infallibly. If the Church did not have the gift of infallibility, the gates of Hades and error would prevail.

Matt. 16:19 – for Jesus to give Peter and the apostles, mere human beings, the authority to bind in heaven what they bound on earth requires infallibility. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the holiness of the person receiving the gift.

Matt. 18:17-18 – the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation.

Matt. 28:20 – Jesus promises that He will be with the Church always. Jesus’ presence in the Church assures infallible teaching on faith and morals. With Jesus present, we can never be deceived.

Luke 22:32 – Jesus prays for Peter, that his faith may not fail. Jesus’ prayer for Peter’s faith is perfectly efficacious, and this allows Peter to teach the faith without error (which means infallibly).

1 & 2 Peter Peter denied Christ, he was rebuked by his greatest bishop (Paul), and yet he wrote two infallible encyclicals. Further, if Peter could teach infallibly by writing, why could he not also teach infallibly by preaching? And why couldn’t his successors so teach as well?

Gen. to Deut.; Psalms; Paul – Moses and maybe Paul were murderers and David was an adulterer and murderer, but they also wrote infallibly. God uses us sinful human beings because when they respond to His grace and change their lives, we give God greater glory and His presence is made more manifest in our sinful world.

John 14:16 – Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would be with the Church forever. The Spirit prevents the teaching of error on faith and morals. It is guaranteed because the guarantee comes from God Himself who cannot lie.

John 14:26 – Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would teach the Church (the apostles and successors) all things regarding the faith. This means that the Church can teach us the right moral positions on such things as in vitro fertilization, cloning and other issues that are not addressed in the Bible. After all, these issues of morality are necessary for our salvation, and God would not leave such important issues to be decided by us sinners without His divine assistance.

John 16:12 – Jesus had many things to say but the apostles couldn’t bear them at that point. This demonstrates that the Church’s infallible doctrine develops over time. All public Revelation was completed with the death of the last apostle, but the doctrine of God’s Revelation develops as our minds and hearts are able to welcome and understand it. God teaches His children only as much as they can bear, for their own good.

John 16:13 – Jesus promises that the Spirit will “guide” the Church into all truth. Our knowledge of the truth develops as the Spirit guides the Church, and this happens over time.

1 Cor. 2:13 – Paul explains that what the ministers teach is taught, not by human wisdom, but by the Spirit. The ministers are led to interpret and understand the spiritual truths God gives them over time.

Eph. 4:13,15 – Paul indicates that attaining to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God to mature manhood is a process. We are to grow up in every way into Christ. Doctrine (which means “teaching”) develops as we understand God’s Revelation.

Acts 15:27-28 – the apostles know that their teaching is being guided by the Holy Spirit. He protects the Church from deception.

Certain ecumenical councils, or parts thereof, are infallible. They are modeled after the infallible Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15). Cherry picking from the infallible Council of Nicae, 325, are errors of omission.
 

CovenantPromise

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I wouldn't give Acta Pilati too much credence unless you also want to believe Satan was bound in Hades.

I also wouldn't equate Jesus with the Waters of Life.

I doubt you could produce credible evidence of a solar eclipse.

Crucifixion darkness - Wikipedia

The Gospel of Luke account states "and the sun was darkened". However, the biblical details do not accord with an eclipse: a solar eclipse could not have occurred on or near the Passover, when Jesus was crucified, and would have been too brief to account for three hours of darkness. The maximum possible duration of a total solar eclipse is seven minutes and 31.1 seconds. The only total eclipse visible in Jerusalem in this era occurred late in the year AD 29, on 24 November at 11:05 AM. Around the Sea of Galilee, it would have been visible for just one minute and forty-nine seconds.

Why would you not equate Christ with the waters of life? What flowed out of Him when He was pierced? And what flows from His and the Father's throne?

He is the Bread of life which comes down from heaven. He is the Rod which budded which the Rod of Aaron denotes. And every word spoken from Him is living waters. As for satan being chained in hell His chains reach to hell HE is CHAINED IN THE KNOWLEDGE he CHOSE- HELL . Just because he moves about does not mean his portion is not in hell. That is a kingdom in which he is chained to. I suppose now you know how long his spiritual chains are? And still this does not discredit Christ's words. "Unless a man be born of both water and spirit he can not enter the kingdom of heaven". PERIOD!

And if His believers shall have living waters flow from them, this means the Holy Spirit is not just fire but water.
John 7:37-39
Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.1Corinthians 12:13For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
Rev.22:1
The River of Life
1Then the angel showed me a river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb

It would seem with speculation doctrine like that BOL and you cling to is not a strong enough case for you to be arguing against me . I am simply stating facts concerning God's word. I will take Him at His word you can go with speculation. And no matter how you turn it is ONLY speculation you cling to. PERIOD!
You convinced me of nothing just as I have not convinced you of the truth.
God Bless!
 

CovenantPromise

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One thing I can say is though, I have united you all in one effort, even if it is simply against me. Yet it is not simply against me but the Word. You argue amongst yourselves concerning what is and is not the language of the scriptures, but all make an united front against me. That is okay. But it does not change the fact that God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. What He speaks , He means, and does not contradict Himself or change what He has said.

Numbers 23:19
19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? John 3:4-6
Jesus and Nicodemus
…4“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time to be born?” 5Jesus answered,, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit.…

The only thing one can conclude is that ,you all simply want to replace Christ with this weed belief. Christ is clear. He would do NOTHING outside of His own doctrine. That simply requires commonsense to understand. Christ baptized the thief PERIOD!

God Bless!
 

CovenantPromise

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What is wooden is this chronic redefinition of terms like "doctrine" and "infallible". Using the same terms with entirely different meanings is what makes discussions like these so frustrating. In order for anything to be a doctrine, it must flow from what has been divinely revealed from Jesus and the Apostles, by word or letter. Infallibility is a gift from God that prevents teaching on faith and morals from falling into error.

Matt. 10:20; Luke 12:12 – Jesus tells His apostles it is not they who speak, but the Spirit of their Father speaking through them. If the Spirit is the one speaking and leading the Church, the Church cannot err on matters of faith and morals.

Matt. 16:18 – Jesus promises the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church. This requires that the Church teach infallibly. If the Church did not have the gift of infallibility, the gates of Hades and error would prevail.

Matt. 16:19 – for Jesus to give Peter and the apostles, mere human beings, the authority to bind in heaven what they bound on earth requires infallibility. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the holiness of the person receiving the gift.

Matt. 18:17-18 – the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation.

Matt. 28:20 – Jesus promises that He will be with the Church always. Jesus’ presence in the Church assures infallible teaching on faith and morals. With Jesus present, we can never be deceived.

Luke 22:32 – Jesus prays for Peter, that his faith may not fail. Jesus’ prayer for Peter’s faith is perfectly efficacious, and this allows Peter to teach the faith without error (which means infallibly).

1 & 2 Peter Peter denied Christ, he was rebuked by his greatest bishop (Paul), and yet he wrote two infallible encyclicals. Further, if Peter could teach infallibly by writing, why could he not also teach infallibly by preaching? And why couldn’t his successors so teach as well?

Gen. to Deut.; Psalms; Paul – Moses and maybe Paul were murderers and David was an adulterer and murderer, but they also wrote infallibly. God uses us sinful human beings because when they respond to His grace and change their lives, we give God greater glory and His presence is made more manifest in our sinful world.

John 14:16 – Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would be with the Church forever. The Spirit prevents the teaching of error on faith and morals. It is guaranteed because the guarantee comes from God Himself who cannot lie.

John 14:26 – Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would teach the Church (the apostles and successors) all things regarding the faith. This means that the Church can teach us the right moral positions on such things as in vitro fertilization, cloning and other issues that are not addressed in the Bible. After all, these issues of morality are necessary for our salvation, and God would not leave such important issues to be decided by us sinners without His divine assistance.

John 16:12 – Jesus had many things to say but the apostles couldn’t bear them at that point. This demonstrates that the Church’s infallible doctrine develops over time. All public Revelation was completed with the death of the last apostle, but the doctrine of God’s Revelation develops as our minds and hearts are able to welcome and understand it. God teaches His children only as much as they can bear, for their own good.

John 16:13 – Jesus promises that the Spirit will “guide” the Church into all truth. Our knowledge of the truth develops as the Spirit guides the Church, and this happens over time.

1 Cor. 2:13 – Paul explains that what the ministers teach is taught, not by human wisdom, but by the Spirit. The ministers are led to interpret and understand the spiritual truths God gives them over time.

Eph. 4:13,15 – Paul indicates that attaining to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God to mature manhood is a process. We are to grow up in every way into Christ. Doctrine (which means “teaching”) develops as we understand God’s Revelation.

Acts 15:27-28 – the apostles know that their teaching is being guided by the Holy Spirit. He protects the Church from deception.

Certain ecumenical councils, or parts thereof, are infallible. They are modeled after the infallible Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15). Cherry picking from the infallible Council of Nicae, 325, are errors of omission.

"In order for anything to be a doctrine, it must flow from what has been divinely revealed from Jesus and the Apostles, by word or letter"

No kidding. In this for instance (the thief on the cross), you all got it wrong. That, simply based on the character of God and His word.
 

epostle

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I gave up a long time ago.
As to sin....before it was a sin to remarry and receive communion.
Now it is no longer a sin....according to this very Pope...
Amores Laetitia chapter 8 footnote 351 (maybe 350).
You are grossly misrepresenting Amores Laetitia because the Pope said no such thing.
pope-thats-not-what-i-said-pn.jpg

footnotes of Chapter 8.
350 inTernaTionaL TheoLoGicaL commission, In Search of a Universal Ethic: A New Look at Natural Law (2009), 59.
351 In certain cases, (not every case) this can include the help of the sacraments. Hence, “I want to remind priests that the confessional must not be a torture chamber, but rather an encounter with the Lord’s mercy” (Apostolic Exhortation Evangelii Gaudium [24 November 2013], 44: AAS 105 [2013], 1038). I would also point out that the Eucharist “is not a prize for the perfect, but a powerful medicine and nourishment for the weak” (ibid., 47: 1039).
Amores Laetitia
Before you had to go to confession every time before receiving communion...
FALSE. Hearing confession for every communicant is impossible, as well as ridiculous.
Now you only have to go to confession for mortal sins.
Before and after Vatican II, a Catholic must go to confession at least once a year, and must go to confession as soon as possible in the event a mortal sin has been committed. Anything less than that makes a phoney Catholic.
I seem to see changes BoL doesn't see.
For a catechist, you are not well informed.
 
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brakelite

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You have said it right there!

Now if you are the Church that Jesus founded through the apostles, you are perfected through your union with Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit,

'and the gates of hell will not prevail against it'

And I would expect said Church to not only claim that perfection, but to do so based on FAITH in the Holy Spirit to 'lead us into all Truth'

By your very own statement, you show that a supernaturally infallible Church Is necessary, to prevent people from falling into an alternate Christianity of their own making.

This is why it is imperative that we must be willing to submit our understanding to the mind of the Church!

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Peace be with you!
The issue is not that God isn't able to preserve His people... The issue is on what basis do Catholics claim that their church is the one God preserved. The Catholic church wasn't the only church in town Philip. It just happened to garner the most power, and that through politics and war. There was nothing supernatural in that my friend. The supernatural part was in the preservation of the truth despite the opposition and the constant attempts by Rome to stamp out her competitors.
 
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brakelite

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I met a woman from England online years ago. She had been a practicing Wiccan once, but then she started to go to church and believe in Jesus. No one ever talked to her about baptism, she didn't give it much thought. One day she was sitting in the church. She said it was as if a wall or water poured over her, making her feel very blessed and happy. I thought it sounded to me as if she had been baptized spiritually and she agreed. I think the thief was also baptized spiritually. Yes, by Jesus too, but not by using physical water.
Just as Jesus died on behalf of man, and live a righteous life on behalf of man, His baptism also was on behalf of those who couldn't be baptised themselves for whatever reason. I think the idea of Jesus baptizing the thief rather far fetched myself. After all, baptism is a response to the heart decision to die to self and surrender to the Saviour... This the thief did.
 
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epostle

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"In order for anything to be a doctrine, it must flow from what has been divinely revealed from Jesus and the Apostles, by word or letter"

No kidding. In this for instance (the thief on the cross), you all got it wrong. That, simply based on the character of God and His word.
The character of God and His word DEFINES the validity of the Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. I don't have anything wrong. Throwing up a wooden version of John 3:5 does not negate the truth, or Jesus would have baptised the Good Thief with water.
 

CovenantPromise

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You have said it right there!

Now if you are the Church that Jesus founded through the apostles, you are perfected through your union with Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit,

'and the gates of hell will not prevail against it'

And I would expect said Church to not only claim that perfection, but to do so based on FAITH in the Holy Spirit to 'lead us into all Truth'

By your very own statement, you show that a supernaturally infallible Church Is necessary, to prevent people from falling into an alternate Christianity of their own making.

This is why it is imperative that we must be willing to submit our understanding to the mind of the Church!

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Peace be with you!
The Church can be a body of believers amongst liars. Whether those liars are intentional or not. Church simply means assembly of believers. That can be a collective body that is opposed to a certain in number which claims to be church.
1Corinthians 11:17-19
17In the following instructions I have no praise to offer, because your gatherings do more harm than good. 18First of all, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. 19And indeed, there must be differences among you to show which of you are approved.…

The approved are church . It is against the APPROVED that the gates of hell shall not prevail. Clearly there are two types of people being addressed here. Those who are approved do not cling to man made doctrines which are full of compromise and deceit. So no to you- in the manner you speak which is one wide brushstroke of all inclusiveness of doctrines. The RC assembly in its entirety is NOT perfect. But there are people who have brought certain perfect doctrines to the table, due to the loyalty which makes them approved.
 
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brakelite

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@BreadOfLife , @epostle @Philip James and others keep telling us that the church is
Infallible because of Christs promise to preserve "His church". The Gates of hell shall not prevail etc. But when you fellas speak of the church, we are all well aware that you actually mean the Catholic church. And according to the Catholic church, it is impossible for the Catholic church to teach error because the Catholic church is Infallible seeing that Jesus promised that the Catholic church would never be overcome by error because it's impossible otherwise it would not be Infallible. But the Catholic church is Infallible in teaching faith and morals because Jesus promised she would... Anyone detect just a little circular reasoning here? And a district lack of historical perspective by ignoring those distinctly immoral doctrines and teachings of faith and immorality?
 

CovenantPromise

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The character of God and His word DEFINES the validity of the Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. I don't have anything wrong. Throwing up a wooden version of John 3:5 does not negate the truth, or Jesus would have baptised the Good Thief with water.
Are you saying that Christ's spirit , like that which overshadowed the Ark and sprinkled it with dew (Water) would not do the same for the thief on the cross based solely on His character and His own Words,(this I ask assuming it did not rain)? You just want to be right in your speculation doctrine. Clearly that man had a desire and clearly Christ has said all He has said from beginning to end. And that End is His Doctrine. He does not compromise or change His mind . Whatever to your assertions . You lost this battle. Christ baptized the thief with water according to His own words.Period!

Psalm 12:5-7
…5“For the cause of the oppressed and for the groaning of the needy, I will now arise,” says the LORD. “I will bring safety to him who yearns.” 6The words of the LORD are flawless, like silver refined in a furnace, like gold purified sevenfold. 7You, O LORD, will keep us; You will forever guard us from this generation.…
Hebrews 13:7-9
Christ's Unchanging Nature
…7Remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their ( "THEIR"-Those who gave us the gospel of Jesus Christ not simply compiled it)-their way of life and imitate their faith. 8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. 9Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace and not by foods of no value to those devoted to them.…
Numbers 23:19
19God is not a man, that He should lie, or a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?
John 3:5
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom
of God.

He baptized the thief on the cross according to His own doctrine. Call Him a liar all you want.
 
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brakelite

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Are you saying that Christ's spirit , like that which overshadowed the Ark and sprinkled it with dew (Water) would not do the same for the thief on the cross based solely on His character and His own Words,(this I ask assuming it did not rain)? You just want to be right in your speculation doctrine. Clearly that man had a desire and clearly Christ has said all He has said from beginning to end. And that End is His Doctrine. He does not compromise or change His mind . Whatever to your assertions . You lost this battle. Christ baptized the thief with water according to His own words.Period!

Psalm 12:5-7
…5“For the cause of the oppressed and for the groaning of the needy, I will now arise,” says the LORD. “I will bring safety to him who yearns.” 6The words of the LORD are flawless, like silver refined in a furnace, like gold purified sevenfold. 7You, O LORD, will keep us; You will forever guard us from this generation.…
Hebrews 13:7-9
Christ's Unchanging Nature
…7Remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their ( "THEIR"-Those who gave us the gospel of Jesus Christ not simply compiled it)-their way of life and imitate their faith. 8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. 9Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace and not by foods of no value to those devoted to them.…
Numbers 23:19
19God is not a man, that He should lie, or a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?
John 3:5
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom
of God.

He baptized the thief on the cross according to His own doctrine. Call Him a liar all you want.
So ummmm, I have a sincere question. When did this baptism take place?
 

CovenantPromise

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It is called reason and deduction. We can deduce from the language of the Word , that He did indeed do according to His own words. The equation tells us that and therefore my sum is correct. Do the math. Yours just does not add up. I say YES to His will,and His Word is BOND! That man was baptized by water according to the Character of Christ and the integrity of His Word, which is the Father's will DONE!
 

CovenantPromise

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So ummmm, I have a sincere question. When did this baptism take place?
What does this say: Luke 23:43 The Crucifixion
…42Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!” 43And Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” 44It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness came over all the land until the ninth hour.…

I already know what questions will arise from this, but let's see what answers you come up with concerning paradise and the kingdom of heaven. Keep in mind John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. and this:
John 20:26-28
Jesus Appears to Thomas
…26Eight days later, His disciples were once again inside with the doors locked, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 27Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and look at My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28Thomas replied, “My Lord and my God!”…
So it would appear that Christ ascended more than once? For if he could not be touched before He ascended then how is it that Thomas could touch Him? Our God is an awesome God and the gospel is eternal. This in itself proves the FULL RC assembly is not perfect, those who think it is a wrap are living a lie. If you state you are part of a perfect assembly and don't know you still have much to learn, then you are deceived.
Lastly 'be in the world but not of it" if we are OF Christ and not OF the world are we OF Paradise?
God Bless!