What Mormons Believe--according to a Former BYU Professor

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Prayer Warrior

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Please don't take this wrong, but I see this as a big problem. I am willing to openly reveal my doctrinal beliefs here in the public forum. Every church I have ever been involved in has publicly revealed their beliefs. I didn't have to meet privately with anyone to find this out.

Edit: And I certainly never was sworn to secrecy in any church I attended.
 
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Jane_Doe22

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Please don't take this wrong, but I see this as a big problem. I am willing to openly reveal my doctrinal beliefs here in the public forum. Every church I have ever been involved in has publicly revealed their beliefs. I didn't have to meet privately with anyone to find this out.
I misunderstood you earlier post- I thought you were requesting a PM. Sorry for this misunderstanding. It's way late here.
I'm cool talking on the public forum too. My preference for PM
s isn't for secrecy (what could be secret when it's written and share online?), but to have one-on-one where points can more directly and effectively be addressed. Open forums can get rather rabbit trail-y, as demonstrated in this very thread.
 
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Prayer Warrior

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I misunderstood you earlier post- I thought you were requesting a PM. Sorry for this misunderstanding. It's way late here.
I'm cool talking on the public forum too. My preference for PM
s isn't for secrecy (what could be secret when it's written and share online?), but to have one-on-one where points can more directly and effectively be addressed. Open forums can get rather rabbit trail-y, as demonstrated in this very thread.
I hear you about the time. It's even later where I am.
 

Prayer Warrior

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One of the issues that has plagued LDS for many years is the issue of polygamy, and the promotion of polygamy was not a peripheral issue at all in the writings of Joseph Smith and subsequent LDS leaders. Lynn Wilder's husband had to grapple with this issue. She explains this in the following excerpt.

***Please note that I have obtained written permission from the author to quote her work. (Any emphasis in bold in the quoted text has been added.)


The following excerpt is from Chapter 18 of Unveiling Grace: the Story of How We Found Our Way out of the Mormon Church by Dr. Lynn Wilder:

Did God Ordain Polygamy?

Mike [author’s husband] was confused about polygamy. Did God command Joseph Smith to practice it, as Mike had been taught all these years? He was also taught that God commanded Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, and Solomon to practice it. Well, this was pretty good company to be associated with. Mike hated the idea of polygamy, but it must be okay with God if he asked these men to do it. Who was he to tell God what to do?

Through his Bible reading, Mike was learning to trust God’s Word. He thought, I will just reread the Bible and get proof that polygamy is justified. This seemed a simple task. He was positive that an angel had told Sarah to give Hagar to Abraham as a second wife, or at least an angel had told Abraham. He would just read this story and find it. After an intense study of Genesis chapters 11 through 25, he found no commandment given to Abraham to practice polygamy. This must not be translated correctly, he thought, still caught in Mormon anti-biblical thought. Mike read about Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, and Solomon. Nowhere did God tell these men to practice polygamy. It was not in the Word of God.

Where did I read about God giving Abraham the authority to practice polygamy? I know I read it somewhere . . . Then he found it, but not in the Bible. It’s in Mormon scripture D&C 132:1: “I, the Lord [Mormon Jesus], justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, Jacob . . . as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines.” And D&C 132:37: “Abraham received concubines and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness.” D&C 132:65: “I [Mormon Jesus] commanded Abraham to take Hagar to wife.”

The Bible gives no divine authorization for the practice of polygamy. In contrast, the Mormon scriptures do. Joseph Smith supposedly received direct revelation from Jesus Christ himself that polygamy is an eternal doctrine of the Mormon Church commanded by God. Which is right, the Bible or Mormon scripture? They can’t both be correct. They’re polar opposites.​

Wilder, Lynn K.. Unveiling Grace (pp. 280-281). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.
 

Nancy

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And that's totally cool. I completely respect you and your beliefs, Nancy. I also majorly enjoy your posts here.

You are a very kind and sweet woman Jane...I do not see you ever being mean and nasty. Many on here lower themselves with personal attacks. My belief is that God has His Children placed in all places of worship, and it is not our job to place judgement on another. If it is a doctrine of devils that can cause a weak bro or sis to move in any way, away from Jesus...then I might say something and have! Lol...but it was NOT to question their faith but to let them know that God loves ALL men, not just a few "elect".
God Bless you Jane and...ignore, ignore, ignore ...really does make this a nicer place :)
 

Jane_Doe22

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You are a very kind and sweet woman Jane...I do not see you ever being mean and nasty. Many on here lower themselves with personal attacks. My belief is that God has His Children placed in all places of worship, and it is not our job to place judgement on another. If it is a doctrine of devils that can cause a weak bro or sis to move in any way, away from Jesus...then I might say something and have! Lol...but it was NOT to question their faith but to let them know that God loves ALL men, not just a few "elect".
God Bless you Jane and...ignore, ignore, ignore ...really does make this a nicer place :)
Thank you, Nancy.
 
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Jane_Doe22

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One of the issues that has plagued LDS for many years is the issue of polygamy, and the promotion of polygamy was not a peripheral issue at all in the writings of Joseph Smith and subsequent LDS leaders. Lynn Wilder's husband had to grapple with this issue. She explains this in the following excerpt.

***Please note that I have obtained written permission from the author to quote her work. (Any emphasis in bold in the quoted text has been added.)


The following excerpt is from Chapter 18 of Unveiling Grace: the Story of How We Found Our Way out of the Mormon Church by Dr. Lynn Wilder:
There's a million way I could go off on how Lynn Wilder doesn't remotely understand LDS Christian beliefs even at the very foundation (starting with Christ and His role). Doesn't remotely understand it, hence the very start of her confusion. Including in this passage. But I would prefer to not have this be an attack on her because she' not here and I despise any attacks.

Instead, do YOU have any questions here @Prayer Warrior that you would like me to clarify the record?
 
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Prayer Warrior

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There's a million way I could go off on how Lynn Wilder doesn't remotely understand LDS Christian beliefs even at the very foundation (starting with Christ and His role). Doesn't remotely understand it, hence the very start of her confusion. Including in this passage. But I would prefer to not have this be an attack on her because she' not here and I despise any attacks.

Instead, do YOU have any questions here @Prayer Warrior that you would like me to clarify the record?
I appreciate the offer, JD, but I really don't have any questions for you. :)
 
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brakelite

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The thing is @Jane_Doe22 , we all know what your beliefs are. You have written extensively of your love for Jesus and your commitment to the LDS church. You have also, with total unswerving loyalty, denied every attempt by others who have quoted explicit LDS books... Quoted ex LDS members... To publish what the church actually teaches. Now of course you enter the conversation and state that this is not what you believe. That we should ask you what Mormons believe and teach. And that what we should be doing is asking you what you believe. But Jane, we already know what you believe. What we are discussing is what the actual LDS church teaches, both historically and currently... And what not just ex members said the church taught them... But current members also... Which you deny. ( My wife's first cousin and her husband were long members of the church, and even after their divorce, still are. He was an elder at the local temple. He, in front of his wife, testified to his firm belief that polygamy was fully approved of God and justifiable... And if the law of the land allowed it, he would take another wife. Now I really don't mind if you believe this is a wrong teaching... Good on you... So do I. The thing is, your church does not think it a wrong teaching and many members of your church agree with it.
You keep asking us to ask you your o pinion. Why? Your opinion isn't in doubt nor is it being challenged. It is your church that concerns us. It is the teachings of your church that concerns us. You on the other hand seem to have beliefs completely different to the LDS church. One wonders why you would continue to be a member there if you disagree with so many of their teachings.
 

Prayer Warrior

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There's a million way I could go off on how Lynn Wilder doesn't remotely understand LDS Christian beliefs even at the very foundation (starting with Christ and His role). Doesn't remotely understand it, hence the very start of her confusion. Including in this passage.
This is the way I look at it. I doubt that Lynn would have become a tenured professor at Brigham Young University if she didn't understand LDS doctrine, but she did. Plus, her husband served as a high priest. There's just no room in mind to think that she doesn't understand Mormonism.
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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PrayerWarrior:

I'm going to be direct here: I'm an actual member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, nicknamed "Mormon". What you are pointing here does not remotely match up to my or other LDS Christians beliefs.

Now, I'm going to directly state this: I don't give a rat's tail what you believe. Both about what your personal beliefs about deity, and whatever it is you want to believe about what I believe.

If you want to learn and get your facts straight from a person who has zero conversion agenda (like I said, I don't give a rat's tail about what you believe), then you can ask and I will answer the facts about what I actually believe.

If you want to believe that mountain of false info given by axe grinders, you can believe that and you can shout it from the mountain tops. Doesn't change anything for anyone. But no, I shall not be adjusting my beliefs from any conversation with you, and will view any such ill-founded prostlzing attempts as personal attacks and place you on "ignore".
You explain away the truth by making excuses.
These are not axe grinders.They are people who were saved out of these errors.
Facts are facts. You do not have some unique view that changes the errors of this works gospel into a believable gospel. It was false right from the lying Joseph Smith to this present day.
 

Willie T

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On Polygamy… Is it not odd that the Bible should specify that it seems to be only if a man wants to be an Elder, that having just one wife comes into play? Doesn't that seem like Polygamy was probably an accepted practice among the rank-and-file Christian membership years after Jesus returned to Heaven? When/where does the Bible direct that to stop?

(BTW, "No", I'm not for Polygamy.)
 

Jane_Doe22

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I appreciate the offer, JD, but I really don't have any questions for you. :)
And you of course can do that.

This is the way I look at it. I doubt that Lynn would have become a tenured professor at Brigham Young University if she didn't understand LDS doctrine, but she did. Plus, her husband served as a high priest. There's just no room in mind to think that she doesn't understand Mormonism.
Did Lynn bother to tell you that her husband being a high priest simply mean that he's a LDS Christian male over the age of 40?
Or the BYU doesn't have any religious requirements for it's tenured faulty and some are openly atheist? (Same with the non-tenured, students, and staff).
 

4Jesus

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You explain away the truth by making excuses.
These are not axe grinders.They are people who were saved out of these errors.
Facts are facts. You do not have some unique view that changes the errors of this works gospel into a believable gospel. It was false right from the lying Joseph Smith to this present day.

Technically speaking though, Joseph Smith could've been telling the truth, but was just a "useful idiot" to an evil angel who was the liar and deceiver. God does tell us to "test the spirits" in 1 John 4:1 "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

Perhaps Smith failed to do so, and propogated the deception he incurred.
 
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brakelite

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This is the way I look at it. I doubt that Lynn would have become a tenured professor at Brigham Young University if she didn't understand LDS doctrine, but she did. Plus, her husband served as a high priest. There's just no room in mind to think that she doesn't understand Mormonism.
That is Jane's standard response. Any quote, whether from ex Mormons or from church records, is a misunderstanding... Am ignorant opinion of the one quoted... A personal attack on a fellow Christian... And that we should ask her because she is the authority here on all things Mormon. Everyone else is not worthy of our attention... There is a pattern of denial regardless of the source.
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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Technically speaking though, Joseph Smith could've been telling the truth, but was just a "useful idiot" to an evil angel who was the liar and deceiver. God does tell us to "test the spirits" in 1 John 4:1 "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

Perhaps Smith failed to do so, and propogated the deception he incurred.
Yes....it was a demon spirit that found him to be easy prey.
 
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