Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

Just curious do you people not know Christ is God? A God who cannot contradict Himself because He is pure without shadow or deviations from His own Words? You really can not see that? Wow! And what's the end game in here? Is it a pursuit of truth or a pursuit to indoctrinate and forgo truth? Are people to believe you are all just simply lay people who have no agenda to indoctrinate? And that indoctrination is not with the pure gospel either but rather with the precepts of men. Has your assembly not gotten enough money? Why are you all soooo concerned if people know that you are ALL not all that and a bag of chips, that you have some failings and shortcomings? It's okay to concede to having failed in many things as well as recognize truths you have preserved. There seems to be a lack of humility and much pride.

Proverbs 16:17-19
…17The highway of the upright leads away from evil; he who guards his way protects his life. 18Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall. 19It is better to be lowly in spirit among the humble than to divide the spoil with the proud.…

I have not rejected the truths preserved in the RCC but I will not accept is faults. I am to be present to one husband as a pure virgin. Not having multiple husbands- men with contradicting doctrines. If it is not in and of Christ I am not in union with you. Period.
2 Corinthians 11:1-3
Paul and the False Apostles
1I hope you will bear with a little of my foolishness, but you are already doing that. 2I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. For I promised you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. 3I am afraid, however, that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may be led astray from your simple and pure devotion to Christ.…

The RCC is an assembly which is like Eve and brings forth two offspring, those like Cain and those like Abel. Those loyal to Christ are like Abel and have one mother and it is not your Mother- your church but rather Mother Mary who has been warning its Cains for centuries.

GodsGrace said:

No M,,,916 doesn't ring a bell.
Should I be looking at that post?

I also showed you that YOU are wrong.

My friend C accepted that a doctrine had been changed right away.
Mr friend L took some time and denied it...but she came around.

Not to mention the priests I know....I live in a small place.
The new Bishop down in the city (our Bishop) is liberal and is happy with the Pope's beliefs.


So I GIVE YOU MY PERMISSION to believe as you will and whatever makes you happy.
Consider me as one of those Catholics that believes a doctrine has been changed.
Surely you know a few.

A doctrine involves teaching FROM THE BIBLE AND JESUS....
Corinthians states that we are to examine ourselves before communion,
and be worthy....
THIS is a teaching, not from the church, but from scripture, from the bible.
The teaching from scripture CANNOT BE CHANGED...
And yet remarrieds are receiving communion. (not in every case).
As Amores Laetitia states...it is left to the pastor of the church and the couple.

WHEN did you ever hear of this before this pope and Am. Lat???
NEVER.
We cannot receive communion while in mortal sin.

• 

Click to expand...

I quoted Church law and it agrees with you.

I can't figure out why you are still trying to argue with me.

Mary

CovenantPromise said:

What does this say: Luke 23:43 The Crucifixion
…42Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!” 43And Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” 44It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness came over all the land until the ninth hour.…

I already know what questions will arise from this, but let's see what answers you come up with concerning paradise and the kingdom of heaven. Keep in mind John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. and this:
John 20:26-28
Jesus Appears to Thomas
…26Eight days later, His disciples were once again inside with the doors locked, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 27Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and look at My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28Thomas replied, “My Lord and my God!”…
So it would appear that Christ ascended more than once? For if he could not be touched before He ascended then how is it that Thomas could touch Him? Our God is an awesome God and the gospel is eternal. This in itself proves the FULL RC assembly is not perfect, those who think it is a wrap are living a lie. If you state you are part of a perfect assembly and don't know you still have much to learn, then you are deceived.
Lastly 'be in the world but not of it" if we are OF Christ and not OF the world are we OF Paradise?
God Bless!

Click to expand...

You are trying to get me to answer my own question... But it wasn't me who is making the claim that the thief was baptised. I'm not about to go about trying to substantiate your claim. That is why I asked the question... Which you did not answer.

brakelite said:

You are trying to get me to answer my own question... But it wasn't me who is making the claim that the thief was baptised. I'm not about to go about trying to substantiate your claim. That is why I asked the question... Which you did not answer.

Click to expand...

Christ answered it. You do not have to substantiate anything He clearly says. But I add that is to your demise not mine. Does God contradict Himself YES or NO? it is not complicated. Did I contradict Him?

CovenantPromise said:

Christ answered it.

Click to expand...

No He didn't. He said that day, that they would meet on Paradise. Neither of them went to Paradise that day. The thief may not even have died for another day or two. And Jesus testified that He didn't go to heaven/Paradise at least until after He met with Mary.
KJV Revelation 2
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
KJV Revelation 22
Jesus Is Coming Soon
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

You mention maths and logic... Use those gifts to understand where Paradise is from the above scripture.

CovenantPromise said:

Does God contradict Himself YES or NO? it

Click to expand...

No. But note that Jesus didn't give the command to baptise anyone until after the resurrection.

brakelite said:

You are trying to get me to answer my own question... But it wasn't me who is making the claim that the thief was baptised. I'm not about to go about trying to substantiate your claim. That is why I asked the question... Which you did not answer.

Click to expand...

That is right just as Christ gets people all the time to answer their own questions. I do not question Christ I question a doctrine in the RCC, which questions God's word. Just because men then did not see what is clear now, is not my problem. And no matter how many centuries something has been taught, does not make it truth. Some things are simply elementary like : Numbers 23:19God is not a man, that He should lie, or a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?

I more than answered enough. No amount of answering will get men to let go of their false doctrines. Period. No answer will suffice when pride is ones master and men's precepts are set up as the standard.
If you cannot do the math I can not impart that insight. I'll leave you to God who gives the growth I simply am throwing out seed.

Take comfort if you must in your quantity in number I take comfort in quality. You are all entitled to believe what you want, that is the beauty of choice. But know, God already knows who are His "I know mine and mine know Me" . That is understanding predestination. It is something though, that only in the end is revealed to us after running our race and winning. But all who are His are predestined at the foundation of all things to be revealed at the end of all things. I pray I am counted worthy, because I have not yet achieved the gifts that even Judas knew, and I am not counted as an apostle as he was. So I pray diligently that I not loose my crown, that I say not as already having taken hold of it, but as one striving for that which Christ has taken hold of me for. Lord please let me remain humble to your will always. God reveals the sell outs just as He did Judas. We all find out what we are. And some beliefs are doctrinal suicide. I will keep moving forward toward that crown , will I make it , Israel! -may God prevail! I put forth my argument take it or leave it.
God Bless!

CovenantPromise said:

Take comfort if you must in your quantity in number I take comfort in quality.

Click to expand...

what on earth are you taking about? I simply asked you a simple question... When did Jesus baptise the thief? And in response I've received a book... But no answer. I didn't ask for a lecture... Just a simple answer to a simple question.

CovenantPromise said:

I am not the one putting limits on what Christ can do, you are. And why would what I say give you concern? It is without a doubt possible for Christ do exactly what I said. The only wooden thing is when men think that every single doctrine which comes out of the RCC is infallible. No matter what you say, what I say shows full trust in the Lord and His word. If you disagree that is your choice . But my choice is clear, I trust in the Lord and do not lean on my own understanding nor second guess His authority and word.

As for anyone being busy......Well Christ was busy about His Father's business and He took care of business according to His word . Christ made sure that man was baptized according to His righteous Words.
Psalm 12:5-7
…5“For the cause of the oppressed and for the groaning of the needy, I will now arise,” says the LORD. “I will bring safety to him who yearns.” 6The words of the LORD are flawless, like silver refined in a furnace, like gold purified sevenfold. 7You, O LORD, will keep us; You will forever guard us from this generation.…

Why would it bother you if Christ baptized that man? Is it because it would uphold His own Words or discredit your men's?

God Bless!

Click to expand...

Not at ALL.

However, what you say doesn’t cover the millions of babies murdered by abortion. As I asked you before – do you believe that THEY burn in Hell for eternity because they weren’t Baptized?? OR – are they exceptions?

As for believing what Christ taught as opposed to what His Church teaches – they are One and the SAME. Christ even went so far as to compare His very SELF with His Church when He approached Saul on the Road to Damascus:

Acts 9:4-5
He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting ME?”
He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.”

Saul was persecuting the Church, yet Jesus said, “. . . why are you persecuting ME?”

- In Eph. 1:22-23, Paul writes that the Church is the FULLNESS of Christ.
- In 1 Tim. 3:15, he writes that the Church is the Pillar and Foundation of TRUTH.
- In Luke 10:16, Jesus tells His Disciples that WHOEVER listens to or reject THEM, listens to or rejects HIM and the ONE who sent Him.

It’s not the Church OR Christ. They are inseparable.
If Christ’s CHURCH teaches it – then CHRIST teaches it.

brakelite said:

what on earth are you taking about? I simply asked you a simple question... When did Jesus baptise the thief? And in response I've received a book... But no answer. I didn't ask for a lecture... Just a simple answer to a simple question.

Click to expand...

Read the thread the posts speak for themselves. And you do not need to get hostile. And no you have not received a book you received the answer , in Christ's own doctrine . I was challenge to prove that Christ would have baptized the thief based on His own testimony . It is clear when the thief was baptized . " Truly I say to you today you shall be with me in paradise" Today. So clearly paradise means within Christ . That thief on that day entered into Christ , who is God and Christ is paradise. Christ by His Spirit baptized that man with water and the spirit and received Him into Himself. "WHERE I SEND FORTH MY WORD IT COMES BACK TO ME PROSPEROUS" He sent it forth to that thief and it was prosperous in doing what it is purposed to do-UPHOLD EVERYTHING THE LIVING GOD DECREES. "unless a man be born of both water and the spirit He cannot enter the kingdom" It is clear. Christ would do according to His own words and have baptized that man according to His word. Let me guess, you all think Christ would have to come down off the cross to do that? Lastly when were those resurrected saints baptized ? Did their baptism come when the rocks split? Which is a nod to Moses when he split the rock and water came forth. The rocks split because Christ is the Rod which buds, He is the authority and water came forth.

Giuliano said:

I would call your redefining words dishonest. Sin is breaking the law.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

It was a sin. Now you say things were changed.

Click to expand...

And therein lies your dishonesty – or Scriptural ignorance.
Take your pick . . .

Even if is WAS a sin according to the Law – the Law was FULFILLED by Christ.
The Law contained statutes that were mere SHADOWS of what was to come. The reality, however, is found in CHRIST (Col 2:16-17). Don’t you actually READ the Bible before you quote it??

NONE of this is binding on a Christian priest.
\Do your homework . . .

brakelite said:

@BreadOfLife , @epostle @Philip James and others keep telling us that the church is
Infallible because of Christs promise to preserve "His church". The Gates of hell shall not prevail etc. But when you fellas speak of the church, we are all well aware that you actually mean the Catholic church. And according to the Catholic church, it is impossible for the Catholic church to teach error because the Catholic church is Infallible seeing that Jesus promised that the Catholic church would never be overcome by error because it's impossible otherwise it would not be Infallible. But the Catholic church is Infallible in teaching faith and morals because Jesus promised she would... Anyone detect just a little circular reasoning here? And a district lack of historical perspective by ignoring those distinctly immoral doctrines and teachings of faith and immorality?

Click to expand...

Care to LIST those "immoral" teachings??

BreadOfLife said:

Not at ALL.

However, what you say doesn’t cover the millions of babies murdered by abortion. As I asked you before – do you believe that THEY burn in Hell for eternity because they weren’t Baptized?? OR – are they exceptions?

As for believing what Christ taught as opposed to what His Church teaches – they are One and the SAME. Christ even went so far as to compare His very SELF with His Church when He approached Saul on the Road to Damascus:

Acts 9:4-5
He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting ME?”
He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.”

Saul was persecuting the Church, yet Jesus said, “. . . why are you persecuting ME?”

- In Eph. 1:22-23, Paul writes that the Church is the FULLNESS of Christ.
- In 1 Tim. 3:15, he writes that the Church is the Pillar and Foundation of TRUTH.
- In Luke 10:16, Jesus tells His Disciples that WHOEVER listens to or reject THEM, listens to or rejects HIM and the ONE who sent Him.

It’s not the Church OR Christ. They are inseparable.
If Christ’s CHURCH teaches it – then CHRIST teaches it.

Click to expand...

Absolutely not. And this has nothing to do with the discussion we are having. That thief stole his way into the kingdom, because Christ personally , by His spirit did to and for that man according to His word. He personally, through His spirit baptized that man with water and the spirit at the last hour. You just do not believe in that miracle. But it happened because HIS word comes back to Him prosperous. CHRIST DID IT. But that thief did not get in because it was not done but because it was done by the Spirit of The Father and the Son. His WORD prospered just as does the rain and snow that goes forth and WATERS the EARTH to make it bud.

Isaiah 55:10-12
Invitation to the Needy
…10For just as rain and snow fall from heaven and do not return without watering the earth, making it bud and sprout, and providing seed to sow and food to eat, 11so My word that proceeds from My mouth will not return to Me empty, but it will accomplish what I please, and it will prosper where I send it. 12You will indeed go out with joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands.…

Do you not know this is a prophecy? The mountains did burst forth into song for the saints and that thief. The earth quaked the rocks split and the trees clapped their hands when the earth convulsed. The splitting rocks is the fulfillment of what Moses did. Christ is the Rod and authority, and he did send forth His word like rain and snow when He was on the cross. It went forth and watered the earth and all those who resurrected and the thief on the cross too was touched by it and baptized.

epostle said:

You are grossly misrepresenting Amores Laetitia because the Pope said no such thing.

footnotes of Chapter 8.
350 inTernaTionaL TheoLoGicaL commission, In Search of a Universal Ethic: A New Look at Natural Law (2009), 59.
351 In certain cases, (not every case) this can include the help of the sacraments. Hence, “I want to remind priests that the confessional must not be a torture chamber, but rather an encounter with the Lord’s mercy” (Apostolic Exhortation Evangelii Gaudium [24 November 2013], 44: AAS 105 [2013], 1038). I would also point out that the Eucharist “is not a prize for the perfect, but a powerful medicine and nourishment for the weak” (ibid., 47: 1039).
Amores Laetitia
FALSE. Hearing confession for every communicant is impossible, as well as ridiculous.

Before and after Vatican II, a Catholic must go to confession at least once a year, and must go to confession as soon as possible in the event a mortal sin has been committed. Anything less than that makes a phoney Catholic.

For a catechist, you are not well informed.

Click to expand...

Re the Pope...
Believe what you will.
I'm not debating this anymore.

As to confession..
You're correct.
What you state is what is taught NOW.
When I was a little girl it was not permitted to receive communion without going first to confession.
We had to go every Saturday afternoon and even remember how many times we committed each sin.
It was pretty rediculous, I agree.
But this is what was taught.

I was showing how something that was right THEN
is not right ANYMORE
(or V V)

CovenantPromise said:

Absolutely not. And this has nothing to do with the discussion we are having. That thief stole his way into the kingdom, because Christ personally , by His spirit did to and for that man according to His word. He personally, through His spirit baptized that man with water and the spirit at the last hour. You just do not believe in that miracle. But it happened because HIS word comes back to Him prosperous. CHRIST DID IT. But that thief did not get in because it was not done but because it was done by the Spirit of The Father and the Son. His WORD prospered just as does the rain and snow that goes forth and WATERS the EARTH to make it bud.

Click to expand...

Ummmmmm, first of all – Scripture NEVER states that it rained at the Resurrection.

In fact – I don’t even know if one single tradition that point to this. YOUR insistence that it DID rain, just to cover your position that the Thief “HAD” to be water baptized is silly. I think you’ve seen “Ben-Hur” one too many times . . .

With that said – you STILL haven’t addressed the millions of aborted babies who have died WITHOUT being baptized. Do you believe that they are burning in Hell because they never got the chance to be Baptized?? OR – are they exceptions?

GodsGrace said:

Re the Pope...
Believe what you will.
I'm not debating this anymore.

As to confession..
You're correct.
What you state is what is taught NOW.
When I was a little girl it was not permitted to receive communion without going first to confession.
We had to go every Saturday afternoon and even remember how many times we committed each sin.
It was pretty rediculous, I agree.
But this is what was taught.

I was showing how something that was right THEN
is not right ANYMORE
(or V V)

Click to expand...

The ONLY sins you were ever “required” to confess to a priest are mortal sins. It was even that way when YOU were a little girl. Venial sins have NEVER been required to be confessed to a priest.

This is a PRIME example of what I mean when I tell you that you are VERY ignorant of ALL things Catholic. You try to pass yourself off as an “expert” on Catholic issues because you claim to have been a catechist. This explains a LOT.

There were MANY bad catechists in the wake of Vatican II – and the Church is STILL recovering from this. The fact that YOU claim to have been one makes a heck of a lot of sense to me . . .

Giuliano said:

I see Philip James liked this post. I was disappointed I'll admit, but I always try to be realistic in life. Now I know he likely approves of Bread of Life saying I might be the "Most Dishonest Poster."


You're not a bishop; you're not a priest even, so why pretend you are other people's boss? Go join a Catholic site. Bury yourself in Catholic writings. Listen to Catholic music. Recite the Rosary. Make yourself happy.

And oh yes, if you get the time, you might want to read your Bible. You say I don't know what it means? I say you never read yours. If you did, you forgot what you read. Why do I say that? You did not know what blood got shed in the covenants God made with Abraham and Noah. Now you have the stunning audacity to "admonish" me to stop quoting the Bible until I learn what it means? I say you should read yours before pretending to know what it means. I didn't try to embarrass for your ignorance about that before; but I think you richly deserve being embarrassed after this. For shame!

Click to expand...

Ummmmmm, YOU’RE the one who proudly stated that Protestants were the ones who “first” taught that marriage was a Covenant – then you couldn’t tell me WHOSE blood was spilled in the marriage Covenant. WHY us that??

Sooooooo – if YOU claim that ALL Covenants require the spilling of blood – WHOSE blood gets spilled in a marriage Covenant, hmmmmmm??

BreadOfLife said:

Ummmmmm, first of all – Scripture NEVER states that it rained at the Resurrection.

In fact – I don’t even know if one single tradition that point to this. YOUR insistence that it DID rain, just to cover your position that the Thief “HAD” to be water baptized is silly. I think you’ve seen “Ben-Hur” one too many times . . .

With that said – you STILL haven’t addressed the millions of aborted babies who have died WITHOUT being baptized. Do you believe that they are burning in Hell because they never got the chance to be Baptized?? OR – are they exceptions?

Click to expand...

Isiah spoke what he spoke . And just as you said that though it may not be spoken in one part of scripture it is spoken elsewhere. The God of His people knew there would be wolves and many wolves have risen up throughout history in assemblies. The apostles had to keep somethings close to their chest. Those brought into the covenant then have the scriptures opened to them by the Holy spirit. Are you calling the prophet Isaiah a liar?

The point is you deny what Christ said . You deny that He who is God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. He is not like man who lies, nor does he need to repent nor does he change his mind, what he says He does, and what He means He says. Take it up with Him, He is for sure taking you to task on this.

BreadOfLife said:

Ummmmmm, first of all – Scripture NEVER states that it rained at the Resurrection.

In fact – I don’t even know if one single tradition that point to this. YOUR insistence that it DID rain, just to cover your position that the Thief “HAD” to be water baptized is silly. I think you’ve seen “Ben-Hur” one too many times . . .

With that said – you STILL haven’t addressed the millions of aborted babies who have died WITHOUT being baptized. Do you believe that they are burning in Hell because they never got the chance to be Baptized?? OR – are they exceptions?

Click to expand...

Talking about the crucifixion.