He said that if we continue in His word.... What is His word? Isn't it what He said that is recorded in the Bible?
What Mormons Believe--according to a Former BYU Professor
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
No one 'killed' Christ. He laid His life down. I know that this may seem like I am being a bit strict, but He made quite a big deal of this fact or difference. It seems this point was very important to Him. So it is important to me.
I, too, have a concern that if events do not unfold in a specific manner of some pet theory then they may have a crisis of faith. Personally, I had my first crisis in 1988. Not proud of that. Live and learn. Or just live...
However, when considering the Rapture or the Second Coming, the notion that folks are going to be able to sit around and make plodding decisions escapes me. These events are described in lightning quick terms. If you are Raptured then the likely experience will be typing away in the forums one moment and on some rapidly moving mechanism headed for Glory the next. Perhaps a gentle floating upward, but largely involuntary at that juncture with the Leavers and Remainers already all settled. The second Coming is similar isn't it? Either people are so hardened that they won't possibly even be able to chose and curse Him to his face but the redeemed saints of the Great Tribulation are likely to already be fully onboard. They probably won't care exactly how He is choosing to accomplish this feat.
Much in contrast to the first incarnation when Christ came and peached and healed and ministered. Took time to build human relationships. I think the two sets of context are incomparable. It will be goats and sheep time. All over except for the crying.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
No one 'killed' Christ. He laid His life down. I know that this may seem like I am being a bit strict, but He made quite a big deal of this fact or difference. It seems this point was very important to Him. So it is important to me.
I, too, have a concern that if events do not unfold in a specific manner of some pet theory then they may have a crisis of faith. Personally, I had my first crisis in 1988. Not proud of that. Live and learn. Or just live...
However, when considering the Rapture or the Second Coming, the notion that folks are going to be able to sit around and make plodding decisions escapes me. These events are described in lightning quick terms. If you are Raptured then the likely experience will be typing away in the forums one moment and on some rapidly moving mechanism headed for Glory the next. Perhaps a gentle floating upward, but largely involuntary at that juncture with the Leavers and Remainers already all settled. The second Coming is similar isn't it? Either people are so hardened that they won't possibly even be able to chose and curse Him to his face but the redeemed saints of the Great Tribulation are likely to already be fully onboard. They probably won't care exactly how He is choosing to accomplish this feat.
Much in contrast to the first incarnation when Christ came and peached and healed and ministered. Took time to build human relationships. I think the two sets of context are incomparable. It will be goats and sheep time. All over except for the crying.
You are right and thank you for that...but we are both are right....Christ laid His life down and the Romans crucified Him....
and 2000 years after Mary died. If protestants knew and understood the scriptures, they could confidently state that Mary is dead, so whatever people see in visions, it cannot be Mary. And the evidence that Mary was raised from the dead and assumed into heaven? Well, the visions of Mary of course. No greater evidence for her assumption than if people saw visions of Pol Pot. I've read numerous quotes from the supposed Mary, and they are all encouraging idolatry. And the RCC only accepts those visions that suits. And the ones they do not accept? What are they. Fake? Lies by a few over excited souls? Not Mary but sometime else? Who else? What else?
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
The scriptures are 2000 year ago....God did not die. Christian history did not stop. God did not stop interacting with us. Christian history did not stop at the end of the Bible. and someone that stands up after 1500 years after the fact is not the expert on Christianity or the Bible. Historically speaking youngsters in understanding.
Couldn't agree more. The history of the last 2000 years though had been so distorted and revised by the powers that be.. The victors... That the truth of history is buried under mounds of rubbish. It takes some digging and some discernment to pry apart the truth from fiction.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I think you might have mistaken the Bible for God.....that is idolatry, my friend
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
And yet, the Bible itself, tells us that the existence of God is self evident in nature.
So are you now calling yourself a Protestant? Protestants simply replaced Catholic Tradition with their own - you know that
Eventually, yes. But Protestants did not start with replacing our swapping traditions.
The sanctuary is God’s plan or blueprint or model by which man may be brought back into the presence of God. Man was lost. The sanctuary was a map for man that he may find his way home. It is God’s Plan of Salvation, His GPS if you like to re-establish man as God's people.
Compare the following scriptures, and we can see how very important the sanctuary is.
Exodus 25:8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.
John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
Matt. 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
The sanctuary contained the very real presence of God.
When Jesus spoke of Himself as being the Door, the Light, the Bread of Life, what do you think He was referring to? Where was He getting these expressions from?
John 1:1 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
What door is Jesus speaking of? It is the door to the sanctuary. Jesus walked through that door as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world to present Himself a sacrifice, holy and without blemish. We are to follow Him into the sanctuary, after His pattern. “I am the Way” He declared. “Thy Way is in the sanctuary” David said….Jesus is in the sanctuary…if we are to find our way to the Father, we must follow Jesus into the sanctuary where He is now, interceding on our behalf.
I am sure most reading this recognize Jesus in the sanctuary, however, just as a refresher, I will go over again where Jesus is. beginning from the outer court, we know that Jesus came from heaven, was born into the tribe of Judah, who were camped immediately outside the door to the outer court, and thus….
- As mentioned, He is the Door. John 10:1,2
- Jesus is the sacrifice. Matt. 5:17
- It is in Him we are to be baptized. John 4:10
- Jesus is the Bread of Life. John 6:35
- He is the Light of the world.John 8:12
- He is our Mediator. Eph. 5:2
- And He is the law personified. Matt. 5:17
- Passover Lamb……..sacrifice……..1 Cor.5:7…..Exodus 12:1-6
- Red Sea……..baptism…….1 Cor.10:2……Exod.14:16
- Manna….Bread…..John 6:58…..Exodus 16:4
- Israel chosen as a special nation to be a light to the Gentiles….Exodus 9:5,6.
- Moses made an intermediary (a type of Christ)….Exodus 19:9-11
- Israel given the law. ….Exodus 20
- The life of Christ was in similar vein and pattern…..
- Born in a stable among animals…born a living sacrifice…born to die..Luke2:7
- Baptized at age 30…Matt.3:16
- Led into the wilderness to be tempted which consisted of three elements
2. presumptuous prayer
3. Bow in exchange for glory Matt.4:1-11
- Goes on to preach and teach the law of God coupled with the grace and the mercy of God. John 14:15. Matt.9:13
- Descended from heaven….John 6:38
- Lived by the word….John 4:34
- Let His light shine….John 1:9
- Lived a life of prayer….Luke 6:12
- Was baptized…Matt.3:16
- Was crucified….Matt.27:35
- Was sacrificed
- Was resurrected and purified
- Gave manna…. John 6:58
- Ascended in order to intercede….Hebrews 7:25
- Ministers among the candlesticks….Revel. 1:11-13
- Judgement to begin in Most Holy Place….Revel. 11,18,19.
- The Gospels are the story of our redemption through the shed blood of Christ
- Acts give us the baptism of the Holy Spirit
- From Romans to Jude we are taught the essentials of the Christian faith
2. Prayer/intercession
3. witnessing
- Revelation gives us insight into the throne room of God.
- We are to accept Christ’s sacrifice …..Romans 10:9
- We are to be baptized….John 3:3-5
- We are to eat the word….Matt. 4:4
- We are to Pray….Luke 18:1
- We are to let our light shine….Matt. 5:16
- We are to keep God’s commandments….John 14:15
The OT prophet Daniel tells of a power that would cast the sanctuary and the truths that it taught to the ground.
Daniel 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
Most are familiar with the parable of the wicked husbandmen found in Matthew 21. Jesus Himself declared that the responsibilities of the kingdom, that is to be a light and witness to the world, or God’s jurors, would be taken away from Israel because they rejected Him, and given to another nation who would bear the fruits. That new nation was the church.
Matt.21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
1Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
The responsibilities of being a light and witness were taken up by the apostolic church. After his success in destroying Israel, Satan then focused his attention upon the church. Persecution didn’t work, but deception did. The nation of Israel, for so long Satan’s prime focus because it was the nation, or more specifically the tribe of Judah and even more specifically the family of David, that was to be the vehicle for the birth of the Messiah. Throughout the OT we see Satan’s attempts to wipe out the root, that the fruit could not result. Particularly we see this in his targeting of the family of David, and his constant temptations to false worship, knowing that God’s wrath and discipline would result in their destruction. The story of Solomon’s idolatry, the dividing of the nation, and the ensuing war between Rehoboam and Jereboam, are a glowing example. Yet God in His mercy preserved a remnant. There has always been a remnant that has been the recipients and keepers of the truth. Israel though, after rejecting Christ, were themselves rejected as God’s “chosen vessel unto Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel” (Acts 9:15) Paul, among others, were now the chosen vessel. God’s people were no longer recognized as a nation, but as a church.
Continued from above....
So take a look at history. Was Satan aware of this change in paradigm? Absolutely! He knew very well who his most dangerous foe now was. It was those who now knew the truth of God’s love as revealed in the gospels. His attacks were directed against first, God’s people, and second, against God’s word. The former religious elite of the nation of Israel were Satan’s first agents in his attacks against the church. Then pagan Rome became his chief weapon, and after the failure of violence to quell the growth of the church, raised up a false Christian edifice, began to attack the scriptures and the peoples’ access to them, and introduced a raft of false doctrines, creeds, and superstitions that had a huge effect upon the church, and literally tens of thousands were seduced and beguiled by the sophistries of the Roman clergy that inherited the thrones of the Caesars.
Among the lies and falsehoods were some that specifically replaced the very truths that marked the Way through the sanctuary…the Roman church set up another sanctuary (their own) in place of the true, and re-erected the veil which effectively cut off access to God.
That veil was Rome’s man-made theories and superstitions which removed Christ as the sole Mediator between God and man and replaced Him with a system of semi-pagan lies and false doctrines.
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
The sanctuary was to be restored. God would not allow his arch-enemy to have his way in his endeavour to tamper with His witnesses without a fight. So God raised up loyal men of God who would declare the truth with courage and conviction, despite great opposition. The truths were to be restored, the Way opened up once again, the full gospel to be restored to the world.
One by one, the truths were re-established in God’s church, and those truths broadcast and taught throughout the world.
And that's where we come in.
So take a look at history. Was Satan aware of this change in paradigm? Absolutely! He knew very well who his most dangerous foe now was. It was those who now knew the truth of God’s love as revealed in the gospels. His attacks were directed against first, God’s people, and second, against God’s word. The former religious elite of the nation of Israel were Satan’s first agents in his attacks against the church. Then pagan Rome became his chief weapon, and after the failure of violence to quell the growth of the church, raised up a false Christian edifice, began to attack the scriptures and the peoples’ access to them, and introduced a raft of false doctrines, creeds, and superstitions that had a huge effect upon the church, and literally tens of thousands were seduced and beguiled by the sophistries of the Roman clergy that inherited the thrones of the Caesars.
Among the lies and falsehoods were some that specifically replaced the very truths that marked the Way through the sanctuary…the Roman church set up another sanctuary (their own) in place of the true, and re-erected the veil which effectively cut off access to God.
That veil was Rome’s man-made theories and superstitions which removed Christ as the sole Mediator between God and man and replaced Him with a system of semi-pagan lies and false doctrines.
- Indulgences replaced Christ’s sacrifice.
- Sprinkling was introduced without confession or repentance.
- The word of God was replaced by traditions.
- Prayer and Christ’s mediation were replaced by the confessional. Did you know that the confessional is a box divided by a curtain?
- Persecution, the use of force and state legislation replaced the light of the gospel.
- The law of God was cast down. The 2nd commandment was removed, the 10th commandment divided to make up the ten, the 4th commandment of the Sabbath changed to Sunday.
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
The sanctuary was to be restored. God would not allow his arch-enemy to have his way in his endeavour to tamper with His witnesses without a fight. So God raised up loyal men of God who would declare the truth with courage and conviction, despite great opposition. The truths were to be restored, the Way opened up once again, the full gospel to be restored to the world.
One by one, the truths were re-established in God’s church, and those truths broadcast and taught throughout the world.
- In the 1300s John Wycliffe, ‘The Morning Star of the Reformation’, translated the scriptures into the common tongue. His followers and supporters were called the Lollards. In their day, they were considered a cult, and were persecuted relentlessly by the established church. Thus the bread of life was restored.
- In the 1400s Martin Luther restored the truth of salvation by faith only. He restores the sacrifice of grace. Luther and his followers, the Lutherans, were considered a cult by those of his day, and were persecuted.
- In the 1500s John Calvin, the founder of the Presbyterians, has a great burden for prayer. He railed against the rote prayers of the established church… In the day,Presbyterians were considered a cult; they were also persecuted, by the Lutherans.
- In the 1600s God raised up a man by the name of John Smith. Smith restored the truth of baptism by immersion. His followers were known as Baptists…in their day they were considered a cult, and were persecuted by the Lutherans and the Presbyterians.
- In the 1700s John Wesley founded the Methodists. John Wesley had a great burden for evangelism: for letting the light of the gospel to shine…he preached from one end of the country to another, and even to the United States. The Methodists were considered a cult and were persecuted by the Lutherans, the Presbyterians, and the Baptists.
And that's where we come in.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Good grief
Your posts take a huge commitment to read
I am not going for another advanced degree tonight.
I will try to spend the weekend getting through it and get back to you
Your posts take a huge commitment to read
I am not going for another advanced degree tonight.
I will try to spend the weekend getting through it and get back to you
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Lol. I'll cut back a little on the humility thing then so as not to make you feel as if you cannot cope.
In the OP I stated that Mormonism is "based on what Paul called unsubstantiated 'myths.'"
The following excerpt is from Chapter 21 of Unveiling Grace: the Story of How We Found Our Way out of the Mormon Church by Dr. Lynn Wilder:
The following excerpt is from Chapter 21 of Unveiling Grace: the Story of How We Found Our Way out of the Mormon Church by Dr. Lynn Wilder:
In 2012, Michael and I traveled to the land of Israel and into the West Bank. There we saw the ruins of Shechem, Samaria, Dan, the City of David, Jerusalem, and the walls of Jericho. We saw pottery, swords, utensils, coins, furniture, clothing, homes, scrolls, columns, streets, and ancient synagogues and “high places.” The mountains, valleys, bodies of water, and geography of the Bible are accurate. More than five thousand existing manuscripts have been found throughout Europe, Asia, and Africa that corroborate the historicity and accuracy of the Bible.
In contrast, Joseph Smith “translated” the Book of Mormon from one set of “gold plates,” and those plates no longer exist where one can see them. The geography of the Book of Mormon has not been located, at least the Mormon Church has no official position. There is no DNA evidence that ties Book of Mormon descendants with Israelites as the Book of Mormon teaches. Historical, physical, and geographical evidence does not exist. Mormons are asked by their leaders to believe the authenticity of the Book of Mormon by faith, not by scientific evidence.
Wilder, Lynn K.. Unveiling Grace (pp. 324-325). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.
In contrast, Joseph Smith “translated” the Book of Mormon from one set of “gold plates,” and those plates no longer exist where one can see them. The geography of the Book of Mormon has not been located, at least the Mormon Church has no official position. There is no DNA evidence that ties Book of Mormon descendants with Israelites as the Book of Mormon teaches. Historical, physical, and geographical evidence does not exist. Mormons are asked by their leaders to believe the authenticity of the Book of Mormon by faith, not by scientific evidence.
Wilder, Lynn K.. Unveiling Grace (pp. 324-325). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
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