Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

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Giuliano

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The Covenant made with Jesus is one NOT made with human hands. There is NO shedding of blood (Col. 2:11-12). Why don’t YOU know this??

The Covenant with Christ is made through BAPTISM – not circumcision of the flesh – but circumcision of the heart.
Do your HOMEWORK . . .
You are approaching the blasphemous.

Hebrews 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
. . . .
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


The Christian is threatened too if he breaks this covenant.

10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Do you not also know that proper penance involves the continuing circumcision of the heart -- that is the spiritual blood we must shed? We may sin through ignorance and receive forgiveness; but if we truly repented, we circumcised the heart and will not repeat it. Jesus will not pay for a sin we commit willfully again and again. We will pay. That does mean people will be damned necessarily. It means they will pay, not Jesus.
 

ScottA

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Wrong.

Not ONE commentary relates 2 cor. 6:2 with Luke 13:32 because they’re NOT contextually related.

You are once again trying to prove me wrong simply because I’m Catholic – and Catholics couldn’t possible know as much about Scripture as Protestants.

Well, you’re wrong again, Scott. . .
Your Catholic complex has nothing to do with it.

You posed an opportunity for clarification in accordance with "all truth" being revealed by the Holy Spirit. That is how this is suppose to work.

It was the truth being revealed.

Your loss.
 

CovenantPromise

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No – I’m not calling Isaiah a “Liar”.

I’m saying outright that he never prophesied that it would rain at the Crucifixion. I’m saying that you have falsely interpreted his words by twisting them to mean what you WANT them to mean.

And once again – you have dodged the question about the millions of aborted babies. If you are saying that God does NOT make exceptions and that EVERYBODY must be water-Baptized, like the Thief supposedly was by the rain – then what about those babies??

This is absolutely relevant to the conversation about the Thief on the cross . . .
1. Are you saying that the prophet Isaiah was not talking about the events of the Crucifixion and the waters of life which came forth from Christ's side? If he is not please enlighten me.
2.I am not avoiding the abortion issue. I am just one person who has every poster throwing many questions and statements at me and I have to answer what I can.

The abortion issue, I am correct to say it is not the same thing because the thief on the cross was permitted by his mother to know life in form. He is an individual breath who could make decisions for himself he chose Christ in His last hour.He was alone without a person in the world by his side. But Christ was there and did for him what could be done by no one else. And Christ did according to the prophecy of Isaiah, " I did not come to destroy the Law or the prophets but fulfill". So no matter how you turn it, Christ's words go forth as the rain and snow does and waters the ground making it bud. We are that ground.1 Corinthians 3:9you are God’s field.

Maybe you do not get that, but that makes no difference to the power of Christ's word. And again
He does not contradict Himself, no matter how much you shout in your writing or how much you deny the truth. Isaiah is prophesying ....hence, THE PROPHET ISAIAH. And that prophecy is about the Messiah Yeshua whether you like it or not.It is about the great divine Mercy given to us on the Cross, that prophecy can not be applied to any other moment in time. So yes you are calling Isaiah a liar.

A child in the womb first and foremost is one with his or her mother. Their breath is not their own but the mothers. Upon birth they receive their own. Yes Christ can do for babies ,through His Spirit what he did for the thief. Are you saying that Isaiah's prophecy about the needy is a lie and is not about the Messiah and how He performs?
Isaiah 55:10-12
Invitation to the Needy
…10For just as rain and snow fall from heaven and do not return without watering the earth, making it bud and sprout, and providing seed to sow and food to eat, 11so My word that proceeds from My mouth will not return to Me empty, but it will accomplish what I please, and it will prosper where I send it. 12You will indeed go out with joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands.…

His word that proceeds from His mouth. Do you get this? By His word, which is the Holy Spirit, what He decrees is so. That same word for the thief was as a baptizing water and life giving spirit. It is not complicated. His word performed what could not be performed by man. But it did not in anyway forgo itself concerning all else the Word decreed. The word performed the baptism because it is the WORD to do so. His baptism was performed by Christ according to His own ordinances . A house divide against itself cannot stand. No matter how angry you get, Christ performed the necessary processes through His word.

Now does an infant desire baptism? NO! So your Baptism of Desire does not even hold up with your abortion argument against me. The thief on the cross had a desire to be with Christ and so Christ personally through His word, according to His Prophet Isaiah, performs what is necessary, what men can not do. Babies have no such conscious thoughts of desire, at least not from what we know about fetal brain development. But would Christ protect give such a baptism to the NEEDY children? Yes! For Isaiah's prophecy is an invitation to the needy there is no greater need than the need of a child. It is an act of mercy that can only be applied by Christ's Word, and it fulfills all His word, including the need of baptism by water and birth through His spirit. So you are wrong about the Isaiah prophecy, it is about Christ.

God Bless!
 

CovenantPromise

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Isaiah 55:
Invitation to the Needy

1“Come, all you who are thirsty,

come to the waters;

and you without money,

come, buy, and eat!

Come, buy wine and milk,

without money and without cost!

2Why spend money on that which is not bread,

and your labor on that which does not satisfy?

Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good,

and your soul will delight in the richest of foods.

3Incline your ear and come to Me;

listen, so that your soul may live.

I will make with you an everlasting covenant—

My loving devotion assured to David.

4Behold, I have made him a witness to the nations,

a leader and commander of the peoples.

5Surely you will summon a nation you do not know,

and nations who do not know you will run to you.

For the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel,

has bestowed glory on you.”

6Seek the LORD while He may be found;

call on Him while He is near.

7Let the wicked man forsake his own way

and the unrighteous man his own thoughts;

let him return to the LORD,

that He may have compassion,

and to our God,

for He will freely pardon.

8“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,

neither are your ways My ways,”

declares the LORD.

9“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,

so My ways are higher than your ways

and My thoughts than your thoughts.

10For just as rain and snow fall from heaven

and do not return without watering the earth,

making it bud and sprout,

and providing seed to sow and food to eat,

11so My word that proceeds from My mouth

will not return to Me empty,

but it will accomplish what I please,

and it will prosper where I send it.

12You will indeed go out with joy

and be led forth in peace;

the mountains and hills will burst into song before you,

and all the trees of the field will clap their hands.

13Instead of the thornbush, a cypress will grow,

and instead of the brier, a myrtle will spring up;

they will make a name for the LORD

as an everlasting sign, never to be destroyed.”
Christ's act upon the CROSS is an everlasting SIGN never to be destroyed, no matter what anyone says .
 

BreadOfLife

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You are approaching the blasphemous.

Hebrews 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
. . . .
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


The Christian is threatened too if he breaks this covenant.

10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Do you not also know that proper penance involves the continuing circumcision of the heart -- that is the spiritual blood we must shed? We may sin through ignorance and receive forgiveness; but if we truly repented, we circumcised the heart and will not repeat it. Jesus will not pay for a sin we commit willfully again and again. We will pay. That does mean people will be damned necessarily. It means they will pay, not Jesus.
There is absolutely ZERO Scriptural evidence for your nonsense about us shedding "spiritual blood".
This is an invention of YOUR making.

I'll just add it to the countless Protestant inventions started by the tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines, yet ALL claim to have the "Truth".

What a mess . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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1. Are you saying that the prophet Isaiah was not talking about the events of the Crucifixion and the waters of life which came forth from Christ's side? If he is not please enlighten me.
2.I am not avoiding the abortion issue. I am just one person who has every poster throwing many questions and statements at me and I have to answer what I can.

The abortion issue, I am correct to say it is not the same thing because the thief on the cross was permitted by his mother to know life in form. He is an individual breath who could make decisions for himself he chose Christ in His last hour. He was alone without a person in the world by his side. But Christ was there and did for him what could be done by no one else. And Christ did according to the prophecy of Isaiah, " I did not come to destroy the Law or the prophets but fulfill". So no matter how you turn it, Christ's words go forth as the rain and snow does and waters the ground making it bud. We are that ground.1 Corinthians 3:9you are God’s field.

Maybe you do not get that, but that makes no difference to the power of Christ's word. And again
He does not contradict Himself, no matter how much you shout in your writing or how much you deny the truth. Isaiah is prophesying ....hence, THE PROPHET ISAIAH. And that prophecy is about the Messiah Yeshua whether you like it or not.It is about the great divine Mercy given to us on the Cross, that prophecy can not be applied to any other moment in time. So yes you are calling Isaiah a liar.

A child in the womb first and foremost is one with his or her mother. Their breath is not their own but the mothers. Upon birth they receive their own. Yes Christ can do for babies ,through His Spirit what he did for the thief. Are you saying that Isaiah's prophecy about the needy is a lie and is not about the Messiah and how He performs?
Isaiah 55:10-12
Invitation to the Needy
…10For just as rain and snow fall from heaven and do not return without watering the earth, making it bud and sprout, and providing seed to sow and food to eat, 11so My word that proceeds from My mouth will not return to Me empty, but it will accomplish what I please, and it will prosper where I send it. 12You will indeed go out with joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands.…

His word that proceeds from His mouth. Do you get this? By His word, which is the Holy Spirit, what He decrees is so. That same word for the thief was as a baptizing water and life giving spirit. It is not complicated. His word performed what could not be performed by man. But it did not in anyway forgo itself concerning all else the Word decreed. The word performed the baptism because it is the WORD to do so. His baptism was performed by Christ according to His own ordinances . A house divide against itself cannot stand. No matter how angry you get, Christ performed the necessary processes through His word.

Now does an infant desire baptism? NO! So your Baptism of Desire does not even hold up with your abortion argument against me. The thief on the cross had a desire to be with Christ and so Christ personally through His word, according to His Prophet Isaiah, performs what is necessary, what men can not do. Babies have no such conscious thoughts of desire, at least not from what we know about fetal brain development. But would Christ protect give such a baptism to the NEEDY children? Yes! For Isaiah's prophecy is an invitation to the needy there is no greater need than the need of a child. It is an act of mercy that can only be applied by Christ's Word, and it fulfills all His word, including the need of baptism by water and birth through His spirit. So you are wrong about the Isaiah prophecy, it is about Christ.

God Bless!
Of ALL of your posts - this is the most abhorrent and anti-God post yet.

Unborn babies are NOT humans until they are BORN?? WHO sold you this abomination??
They are 100% individual human beings with their OWN hearts and blood and nervous systems and souls. God said of them:
Jer. 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you."

Now, YOU have relegated them to something LESS than human. They are EVERY bit as human as YOU.
So - do they burn in Hell for not being Baptized, according to YOUR logic??

The Early Church baptized infants and wrote that they learned this from the APOSTLES themselves:

Irenaeus
"He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age" (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus
"Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them" (The APOSTOLIC Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).

Origen
"Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants.
" (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]).
"
The Church received from the APOSTLES the tradition of giving baptism even to infants.

(Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

Augustine
"The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned, nor is it to be regarded in any way as superfluous, nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except APOSTOLIC" (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]).

Finally - this is NOT a prophecy about the Crucifixion - but about the Gospel itself.
 

Giuliano

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There is absolutely ZERO Scriptural evidence for your nonsense about us shedding "spiritual blood".
This is an invention of YOUR making.

I'll just add it to the countless Protestant inventions started by the tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines, yet ALL claim to have the "Truth".

What a mess . . .
I don't care if you want to think it is human blood you drink at Communion. You still made a huge mistake by denying that blood was involved in the New Covenant. A blasphemous mistake in my opinion.

How could Jesus offer his Body and Blood to the disciples before the crucifixion if it was physical blood? What good would sacrificing material human flesh and blood do?

Read this again too:

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

It doesn't say "blood of Jesus". It says, "blood of Christ." It also says it was offered "through the eternal Spirit" which you are denying. You seem to think you're drinking human blood at Communion.
 

CovenantPromise

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Of ALL of your posts - this is the most abhorrent and anti-God post yet.

Unborn babies are NOT humans until they are BORN?? WHO sold you this abomination??
They are 100% individual human beings with their OWN hearts and blood and nervous systems and souls. God said of them:
Jer. 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you."

Now, YOU have relegated them to something LESS than human. They are EVERY bit as human as YOU.
So - do they burn in Hell for not being Baptized, according to YOUR logic??

The Early Church baptized infants and wrote that they learned this from the APOSTLES themselves:

Irenaeus
"He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age" (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus
"Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them" (The APOSTOLIC Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).

Origen
"Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants.
" (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]).
"
The Church received from the APOSTLES the tradition of giving baptism even to infants.

(Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

Augustine
"The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned, nor is it to be regarded in any way as superfluous, nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except APOSTOLIC" (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]).

Finally - this is NOT a prophecy about the Crucifixion - but about the Gospel itself.

I said no such thing about babies and you know it. Let God contend with you.
 
B

brakelite

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There is and has always been only ONE Church, the body of Christ. St.Paul makes this quite clear in his letters 'one Faith, one baptism, one Lord of all..'
You have started well, describing Gods people as a community of believers bound together in spiritual truth,

This one Church was planted in various locations by the apostles (
But here you remove the spiritual truth that binds them and makes them one by designating physical locations and physical exercises and practical leadership as the binding power. Sorry, but no. The binding power was Christ. You leave Christ for another, the bond is broken, regardless of the continuing physical presence. The Gates of hell prevailing does not necessarily mean the target disappears. Overcome by the world and corrupted by politics suffices as being overcome.
The fact that there is truth today still taught and people coming to Christ reach day by their thousands is testimony to the gates of hell not prevailing. It has nothing to do with a fancy building still standing in Rome
 
B

brakelite

Guest
Care to LIST those "immoral" teachings??
I tell you what. I will give you the opportunity to answer your own question, but I will offer you a lead in.
  • An influential leader of your church
  • Known as one of the few "doctors"
  • Thomas Aquinas
What did he teach that was later developed into doctrine and dogma that resulted in the persecution of many thousands of so called heretics? Please explain the morality in his teaching. You are the expert so I don't want to offer anything which could give you cause for calling me a liar.
 
B

brakelite

Guest
So, scenario 2 makes sense in this light . . .
no, it makes no sense because Jesus did not go to Paradise that day. He was in the grave until He rose. And you need to reread that passage about Christ preaching to the spirits in prison.
Some questions... Who peached? The spirit of Christ.
When did the spirit of Christ preach? In the days of Noah.
How is that possible? He preached by the spirit through His servant Noah, who we learn elsewhere was a preacher of righteousness.
Who did he outreach to? Those who lived in the bondage and prisonhouse of sin.
 

Philip James

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But here you remove the spiritual truth that binds them and makes them one by designating physical locations and physical exercises and practical leadership as the binding power. Sorry, but no. The binding power was Christ.

Of course the binding power is Christ. The whole life of the Church flows from Him.
It is you that are denying that the apostles planted One Church in various locations and appointed elders over them...

This is the witness of scripture and the living witness of the apostolic communities.

If you would serve Christ, we are not your enemy.

Peace!
 

Yehren

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The teaching of the Church on homosexuality is clear.

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The sixth commandment
 
B

brakelite

Guest
It is you that are denying that the apostles planted One Church in various locations and appointed elders over them...
Not at all. They indeed planted churches. And those churches planted other churches. And so on and so on. Until such a time when the Roman church looked outside and discovered hundreds of churches on its doorstep that were thoroughly independent, followng God's will in spreading the gospel, and doing so in the power and presence of their Lord and Saviour whithout either the permission nor the authority of the bishop in Rome who by the 6th century had succumbed to the temptations of the world and had led his church into apostasy, relying on ritual and works to earn the graces that were supposedly kept in store by the deceased saints and Mary and other dignities like a spiritual savings bank that could only be accessed through personal effort... Turning grace into a debt owed.

If you would serve Christ, we are not your enemy.
No. You are not my enemy. And I am serving Christ by calling you to come out of that union of church and state because I believe you are His. But you are in danger of being caught up in the judgement.. Everything that we cleave that is corrupt or diseased will be destroyed and of we don't let it go, we along with it.
 

GodsGrace

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His last post to me completely shocked me. He really does need help.
I agree.

I wanted to tell you that I did speak to the friar I told you about...
Re levitiation: He said it could be caused by God or satan.
Re Joachim of Fiore. He said that the idea of a perfect humanity did float around, but it was never taught by the church...much like limbo. (no such place).