Just for....those who, well, not just for some, but for all who would love God.

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Philip James

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I would encourage you to consider that you have it upside down, that the leaders are not the church, but are the least of them and have no more authority than servants,

Hello Scott,
The leaders are the Church as much as we. Indeed, they are our brothers and sons who the Spirit has called, and who dedicate their lives to serve Christ and His Church ( yes thats all of us) .
They are our servants, and we are theirs, all of us together, the body of Christ.
The authority they receive by the power of the Holy Spirit, through the laying on of hands, does not belong to all.
Jude warns us of the rebellion of Korah. Of claiming for ourselves authority that belongs to another.
Have some failed in their duties or abused that authority? They will answer for their actions, as will we.
Disobedience and rebellion are never the answer..

Peace be with you!
 

Enoch111

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Well I guess I should just take a knife and cut out all the verses that show Jesus giving authority to the apostles, and all those that speak of the authority of the Church...
Apostolic authority did NOT devolve upon the hierarchy of the Catholic church or its pope. The proof is that the Orthodox reject papal authority. So you do have a major problem (which you cannot and will not address). And we won't even discuss the Protestant Reformation.

"I can state, however, that the Orthodox view and attitude of the Roman Papacy is not a matter of refusing to accept the authority of the Pope but, rather, a matter of historic reality. The bottom line is that, during its 2000 year existence, the Orthodox Church had not been subject to the administrative authority of the Pope of Rome, and this is borne out in the extant decrees of the early Church councils. These councils, while acknowledging the Pope as the “first among equals,” in no way envision the Bishop of Rome’s “primacy of honor” as a “supremacy of jurisdiction.” The papal claims to supremacy are of much later origin, and there are many who would argue that such claims have done far more damage to the unity of Christendom than anything else. [If one looks at the hundreds upon hundreds of Protestant groups that grew out of Roman Catholicism—there is little parallel here within Orthodox Christianity—one might also question the papacy as a point of unity.]"

The Pope & Christian Unity - Questions & Answers
 
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ScottA

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The authority they receive by the power of the Holy Spirit, through the laying on of hands, does not belong to all.
Jude warns us of the rebellion of Korah. Of claiming for ourselves authority that belongs to another.
Here is were it goes wrong.

Being a leader in the church is just one of many gifts of the Holy Spirit. The error of some is to consider that authority as greater than any other, thereby doing exactly what you have pointed out: "claiming for ourselves authority that belongs to another." This is the error of some in leadership, and those who revere them above the rest of the congregation.
 
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Philip James

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Apostolic authority did NOT devolve upon the hierarchy of the Catholic church or its pope. The proof is that the Orthodox reject papal authority. So you do have a major problem (which you cannot and will not address). And we won't even discuss the Protestant Reformation.

"I can state, however, that the Orthodox view and attitude of the Roman Papacy is not a matter of refusing to accept the authority of the Pope but, rather, a matter of historic reality. The bottom line is that, during its 2000 year existence, the Orthodox Church had not been subject to the administrative authority of the Pope of Rome, and this is borne out in the extant decrees of the early Church councils. These councils, while acknowledging the Pope as the “first among equals,” in no way envision the Bishop of Rome’s “primacy of honor” as a “supremacy of jurisdiction.” The papal claims to supremacy are of much later origin, and there are many who would argue that such claims have done far more damage to the unity of Christendom than anything else. [If one looks at the hundreds upon hundreds of Protestant groups that grew out of Roman Catholicism—there is little parallel here within Orthodox Christianity—one might also question the papacy as a point of unity.]"

The Pope & Christian Unity - Questions & Answers


Are you Orthodox? If Rome is your stumbling block and you have submitted to the (valid) authority of an Orthodox bishop, then Alleluia!
 

amadeus

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Presbyters who preside well deserve double honor, especially those who toil in preaching and teaching.

Peace!
Don't forget that the word "well" is in there. When their ruling is NOT well done, would it be in error not to honor them at all? Should we honor a person just because he holds a position?
 

Philip James

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Don't forget that the word "well" is in there. When their ruling is NOT well done, would it be in error not to honor them at all? Should we honor a person just because he holds a position?

Yes.

1Pet 2:16-21

Be free, yet without using freedom as a pretext for evil, but as slaves of God.

Give honor to all, love the community, fear God, honor the king.

Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse.

For whenever anyone bears the pain of unjust suffering because of consciousness of God, that is a grace.

But what credit is there if you are patient when beaten for doing wrong? But if you are patient when you suffer for doing what is good, this is a grace before God.

For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example that you should follow in his footsteps.


This is how the Church conquered the Roman Empire...

Peace!
 

amadeus

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Even so! Whether it is an Obama or a Trump in the oval office honor the holder of the office and pray for him. He certainly needs it.
1Pet 2:16-21
Be free, yet without using freedom as a pretext for evil, but as slaves of God.
Give honor to all, love the community, fear God, honor the king.
Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse.
For whenever anyone bears the pain of unjust suffering because of consciousness of God, that is a grace.
But what credit is there if you are patient when beaten for doing wrong? But if you are patient when you suffer for doing what is good, this is a grace before God.
For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example that you should follow in his footsteps.
Praise God!
This is how the Church conquered the Roman Empire...
I wouldn't get carried away. God has accomplished what has needed to be accomplished as per His plan. I don't make the Church [without saying what it is here] equal to God. Eventually when it is ready, the Church, that is the Body, will be connected fully to and subject completely to the Head, which is Jesus. The Head is ready, but the Body is still a work in progress... What can the Body do without that full and complete connection?

"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

This is how we/they limit God likely because some things the Body needs to do are not being done because they/we are not always and fully subject to the Head.


Peace indeed! Give God the glory!
 

Philip James

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Eventually when it is ready, the Church, that is the Body, will be connected fully to and subject completely to the Head, which is Jesus

I liked your post, but on this point:

I believe we are fully connected to the Head, and through the Head with each other especially when we celebrate Eucharist. It is from Him, through receiving Him in the Eucharist that we, together, receive the strength and the power to walk more fully in Him every day.
He IS our daily bread!

To Our Father be all Glory and Honour forever and ever!
 

Philip James

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Happy those who do not follow the counsel of the wicked, Nor go the way of sinners, nor sit in company with scoffers.

 

justbyfaith

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Do you think that it is warranted to worship the wafer; since it is Jesus to the Catholics?

If I recall correctly, there was one man of the Lord who was martyred because he wouldn't worship the wafer.

To me, being required to worship the wafer is taking it too far; and yet it is the logical outcome of Catholic doctrine.
 
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Philip James

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Do you think that it is warranted to worship the wafer; since it is Jesus to the Catholics?

If I recall correctly, there was one man of the Lord who was martyred because he wouldn't worship the wafer.

To me, being required to worship the wafer is taking it too far; and yet it is the logical outcome of Catholic doctrine.

As true worship is from the heart, I don't think any man can be 'required' to worship anyone (or anything).

However it is both right and proper to adore Jesus in the Eucharist, and is a natural outcome of our growth in faith.

Peace be with you!
 

marks

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Hello marks,
It means we (all of us) are guarded and guided by the Holy Spirit who will not allow the Church to teach error on faith and morals...

Peace!
We are all guarded by the Holy Spirit, but that doesn't somehow mean the church as body is infallable. Much error has been taught, but infallibility is not just about teaching, you know.

All declarations must be completely truthful and accurate, and they aren't. And many will answer.

Much love!
 

Nondenom40

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Exclusive? Why would you think the Church is exclusive?

From the CCC:

814 From the beginning, this one Church has been marked by a great diversity which comes from both the variety of God's gifts and the diversity of those who receive them. Within the unity of the People of God, a multiplicity of peoples and cultures is gathered together. Among the Church's members, there are different gifts, offices, conditions, and ways of life. "Holding a rightful place in the communion of the Church there are also particular Churches that retain their own traditions."263 The great richness of such diversity is not opposed to the Church's unity. Yet sin and the burden of its consequences constantly threaten the gift of unity. and so the Apostle has to exhort Christians to "maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.


All are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Peace be with you!
Doesn't the rcc teach that there is no salvation outside of that church? I thought i saw that exact quote here yesterday. Sounds exclusive to me. Jesus didn't come to simply set up a church. He came to seek and save that which was lost; i.e. people.
 

Nondenom40

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Well I guess I should just take a knife and cut out all the verses that show Jesus giving authority to the apostles, and all those that speak of the authority of the Church..,
Giving authority to apostles is one thing, your church the rcc is quite another. The rcc didn't exist for hundreds of years post apostolic age. Kinda hard to be apostolic when it didn't exist yet. Or teach what the apostles taught.
Perhaps we should cut this one out first? :
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Peace!
I rarely see this verse quoted accurately by catholics. And this one is wrong as well.
 

amadeus

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I liked your post, but on this point:

I believe we are fully connected to the Head, and through the Head with each other especially when we celebrate Eucharist. It is from Him, through receiving Him in the Eucharist that we, together, receive the strength and the power to walk more fully in Him every day.
I don't believe there is as good of a connection as there needs to be. A well made healthy human body with all of it parts is completely in subjection to the head. When an artery or nerve is cut so that a leg will not and/or cannot obey, it is no longer subject to the head... until repair work is done. The Body of Christ when it is finished will need no repairs.

On the Eucharist, I do believe in consuming the Body and Blood of Jesus, but I understand it differently than many do. I don't partake in either Catholic or Protestant traditional communion services, but I do partake daily of the Body and Blood.

He IS our daily bread!
Amen! To me this means daily. People eat the meat and potatoes and such for their physical bodies daily perhaps three times a day. Should we do less for the new man of us?
To Our Father be all Glory and Honour forever and ever!
Glory to God!
 
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Philip James

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We are all guarded by the Holy Spirit, but that doesn't somehow mean the church as body is infallable.

Of course it MUST be. If the church as a whole has fallen into error, then the gates of hell have prevailed, and Jesus is made a liar and a false prophet.

What does that mean?

It means in commuion with a community founded by the apostles, who have faithfully passed down the One Loaf broken and given to us by Jesus, and the ONE cup that is the new covenant in His Blood.

Peace be with you!