To all the Rome haters.....

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goldy

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I wanted to respond to all of the misinformation and utter blasphemies that were claimed by people on here toward my beloved church: The Roman Catholic Church. I thought a new thread would be a little better. I will just make a few points, and I invite anyone on here to respond to them:1. Catholics DO NOT worship the pope. He is a sinner, just like you and me. But he's also the shepherd of our church, and he needs our prayers.2. The pictures some of you posted on here of the pope with Nazi soldiers is ridiculous. There is ample evidence to prove that the pope DID NOT aid the Nazis during WW2. In fact, just the opposite happened. Thousands of jews were saved as a result of the pope and other courageous priests and bishops who hid jews in the seminaries and other Catholic Churches throughout Europe. 3. You can go on and on about the Book of Revelation and the Blessed Virgin. That is only your fallible interpretation of these passages (the whole crux of Protestantism). And no, we don't worship Mary by the way.4. Can anyone on here explain to me why I have grown in holiness and have developed a deeper relationship with Christ ever since I truly embraced my Catholic faith? Wouldn't an "evil institution" (like so many of you claim the Catholic church is) be taking me AWAY from Christ?That's all I have for now.....That's all I have
 

waquinas

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Easy Goldy, I love Her too and you are not alone here. Just have to abide by house rules or one is not allowed to stay.Peace be with you.
 

Jordan

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Easy Goldy, I love Her too and you are not alone here. Just have to abide by house rules or one is not allowed to stay.Peace be with you.
Rome is only a type of an antichrist. The real action to come is not in Rome, but in Jerusalem. That's where the REAL Anti-Christ is going to come and claim to be God.
 

goldy

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Easy Goldy, I love Her too and you are not alone here. Just have to abide by house rules or one is not allowed to stay.Peace be with you.
Sorry. It's just that the truth has set me free!! It's just a little difficult when my so many lies are told about my church. I just wish people who disagree with Catholicism disagreed with what the Church ACTUALLY teaches rather than what they THINK the Church teaches. God Bless
 

Christina

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This is the exact problem with religion THE BIBLE ISNT ABOUT RELIGIOUS DENOMINATIONS its about a faith only men think its about their religion for or against its about One God One faith One baptismAll those who think Rev. or Antichrist is about the catholic church are wrong its never been about any denomination just like the rest of the Bible. Religion/denominations are for men by men all of them some are good some are bad but they are all of men not God. Thats exactly why we don't study religions or their doctrines here ....
 

Jordan

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This is the exact problem with religion THE BIBLE ISNT ABOUT RELIGIOUS DENOMINATIONS its about a faith only men think its about their religion for or against its about One God One faith One baptismAll those who think Rev. or Antichrist is about the catholic church are wrong its never been about any denomination just like the rest of the Bible. Religion/denominations are for men by men all of them some are good some are bad but they are all of men not God. Thats exactly why we don't study religions or their doctrines here ....
Amen, So true. The bible is about reality and not religion.
 

Alpha and Omega

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1. Catholics DO NOT worship the pope. He is a sinner, just like you and me. But he's also the shepherd of our church, and he needs our prayers.
hello goldy. I used to be a Catholic so this topic is close to me. So here is my response to the above....A little side note here. The pope's title is Vicar of Christ. Vicar simply means substitute. I must ask why was there no indication in the Bible that this person would come? Why does God not speak of this Christ substitute coming to earth? Worshiping the pope.....After the pope died there was a statue of him resurrected at the front of my ex-church. Now people go there (and I was one of them) bow in front of the statue and pray to it. That I would call worship. Now I would agree with you that he is indeed a sinner. As far as who is the shepherd...John 10:11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.John 10:16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.It seems to me that there is only one shepherd. Now if you think the pope is that shepherd that is fine but he is not my shepherd because I only have one and his name is Jesus Christ.Ephesians 5:23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.You see Christ is the head of the church not the pope.(goldy;65064)
3. And no, we don't worship Mary by the way.
You know we could go on and on with this one. But again I would have to disagree. Again there are plenty of statues of Mary and plenty of people who bow to her and pray to her. Exodus 20:4-5Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;This is how I see it. If you pray to a statue this is what you are praying to. The statue was made by human hands. that person most certainly sinned. You bow and pray to sin. The father of sin is Satan. You are pledging your allegiance to him. God gave simple rules yet the Catholic church loves to break them for some reason.Now I have a question why pray to Mary or the pope when God can hear you just fine? Why not talk to him. You think Mary or the pope can help you? Remember they were human too and they were sinners just like everyone else.
 

goldy

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hello goldy. I used to be a Catholic so this topic is close to me. So here is my response to the above....A little side note here. The pope's title is Vicar of Christ. Vicar simply means substitute. I must ask why was there no indication in the Bible that this person would come? Why does God not speak of this Christ substitute coming to earth? Worshiping the pope.....After the pope died there was a statue of him resurrected at the front of my ex-church. Now people go there (and I was one of them) bow in front of the statue and pray to it. That I would call worship. Now I would agree with you that he is indeed a sinner. As far as who is the shepherd...John 10:11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.John 10:16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.It seems to me that there is only one shepherd. Now if you think the pope is that shepherd that is fine but he is not my shepherd because I only have one and his name is Jesus Christ.Ephesians 5:23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.You see Christ is the head of the church not the pope.You know we could go on and on with this one. But again I would have to disagree. Again there are plenty of statues of Mary and plenty of people who bow to her and pray to her. Exodus 20:4-5Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;This is how I see it. If you pray to a statue this is what you are praying to. The statue was made by human hands. that person most certainly sinned. You bow and pray to sin. The father of sin is Satan. You are pledging your allegiance to him. God gave simple rules yet the Catholic church loves to break them for some reason.Now I have a question why pray to Mary or the pope when God can hear you just fine? Why not talk to him. You think Mary or the pope can help you? Remember they were human too and they were sinners just like everyone else.
Thanks for the reply. I'm sorry to hear that you are former Catholic. Why did you leave? Anyway, I will try to answer your questions as eloquently as possible. Bear in mind that I don't have my Bible in front of me so I won't be quoting specific verses. Here goes:1. With regard to Mary and statues. I have a statue of Mary in my front yard. Do I bow or kneel in front of that statue? No. Let me ask you this: Do you have pictures of family members in your home? If so, why? Do you worship those pictures? I'm guessing that if you do have pictures of family members in your home it's because they are reminders of the love you have for them and the joy/love they bring to your life. What about statues of Abraham Lincoln or other former leaders in Washington D.C.? Do people worship them also? Of course not!! This is our view of statues, holy pictures, etc. As far as bowing or kneeling in front of a statue, this is simply a sign of reverence. If I kneel at my bedside each night while saying prayers, does that mean that I worship my bed? Of course not!! Kneeling or bowing doesn't mean that you are necessarily worshipping something. So again, Catholics don't worship Mary, the pope, the saints, etc.2. With regard to the pope: Jesus very specifically told Peter: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build MY church. And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Notice that Jesus said it was HIS church. My friend, if I gave you the keys to my car you can take that car and drive it or do whatever you need to do with it. BUT.....the car is still MINE. The Catholic Church is Jesus' church, not the pope's. And we obviously believe that Peter was the first leader of our church. It's very clear that if you read the Acts of the Apostles, Peter was in charge when the Church was beginning after the Ascension of Christ.That's all for now until I get my hands on my Bible for specific verses.....
 

goldy

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Rome is only a type of an antichrist. The real action to come is not in Rome, but in Jerusalem. That's where the REAL Anti-Christ is going to come and claim to be God.
Where in the Bible does it say, specifically, that Rome is a type of an antichrist? Or is this just your personal opinion on how you see things playing out?
 

Jordan

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(Jordan;65116)
Rome is only a type of an antichrist. The real action to come is not in Rome, but in Jerusalem. That's where the REAL Anti-Christ is going to come and claim to be God.
Where in the Bible does it say, specifically, that Rome is a type of an antichrist? Or is this just your personal opinion on how you see things playing out?Well, I tried many times quoting scripture you could not just see at all. How do you explain all these twisting of the Truth of God?
 

goldy

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Well, I tried many times quoting scripture you could not just see at all. How do you explain all these twisting of the Truth of God?
You quoted a lot of scripture, that's for sure. I just disagree with your interpretation that these indicate that Rome is a type of antichrist, that's all
 

Alpha and Omega

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Thanks for the reply. I'm sorry to hear that you are former Catholic. Why did you leave? Anyway, I will try to answer your questions as eloquently as possible. Bear in mind that I don't have my Bible in front of me so I won't be quoting specific verses. Here goes:
I left because I felt like I was being lied to all my life. I left because I could see that the RCH does not follow gods word. It all started when I started to ask some questions like...where did easter come from? where did Christmas come from? Why do we pray to statutes? Why did the RCC murder millions of people in the middle ages for reading the Bible? Why are they so rich and so many are still so poor? etc...(goldy;65294)
1. With regard to Mary and statues. I have a statue of Mary in my front yard. Do I bow or kneel in front of that statue? No. Let me ask you this: Do you have pictures of family members in your home? If so, why? Do you worship those pictures? I'm guessing that if you do have pictures of family members in your home it's because they are reminders of the love you have for them and the joy/love they bring to your life. What about statues of Abraham Lincoln or other former leaders in Washington D.C.? Do people worship them also? Of course not!! This is our view of statues, holy pictures, etc. As far as bowing or kneeling in front of a statue, this is simply a sign of reverence. If I kneel at my bedside each night while saying prayers, does that mean that I worship my bed? Of course not!! Kneeling or bowing doesn't mean that you are necessarily worshipping something. So again, Catholics don't worship Mary, the pope, the saints, etc.
an interesting spin on things. However you seem contradict yourself. You say you do not bow in front of the statue but then go on to say it is a sign of reverence. Its really simply goldy, God said do not do it. He gets jealous when you do it so don't. If its for reverence or worship or whatever you would like to call it, please listen to God on this one do not do it.(goldy;65294)
2. With regard to the pope: Jesus very specifically told Peter: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build MY church. And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Notice that Jesus said it was HIS church. My friend, if I gave you the keys to my car you can take that car and drive it or do whatever you need to do with it. BUT.....the car is still MINE. The Catholic Church is Jesus' church, not the pope's. And we obviously believe that Peter was the first leader of our church. It's very clear that if you read the Acts of the Apostles, Peter was in charge when the Church was beginning after the Ascension of Christ.That's all for now until I get my hands on my Bible for specific verses.....
Isn't it interesting that this church is never mentioned by name. Why does the Bible never mention the Roman Catholic church? But the RCC somehow feels that this verse is a reverence to them.Notice very carefully in the epistles. At the beginning of each epistle who are the apostles greeting exactly? The apostle is greeting a people not a building or a religion. That is why we have Romans (citizens of Rome), Corinthians (citizens of Corinth) etc. They are not saying greeting to all the Catholics of Rome. No he is saying greetings to all the Romans of the church. Also I could go and say that the Catholic church did not start until around the year 310. But, that is something your going to have to find yourself. Just do not believe everything they tell you.Also, if Peter was the first pope then why was he never in Rome? Paul is greeting people in Rome but never mentions Peter not once. Why? You think he would. We must realize that Peter was an apostle to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles. The headship of the church is reserved to Christ alone. “[H]e is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”(Colossians 1:18) Christ will not share his glory nor his authority nor his station with anyone, Christ has preeminence in all things. “For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.” (Exodus 34:14) The Old Testament prophecies of the coming Christ indicate that the cornerstone of the church is to be a heavenly stone that is cut out without hands, and the church will grow from this stone to become a large spiritual mountain and fill the earth. See Daniel 2:34-45. This prophesied rock is Christ. For a man to claim to be the rock of the church is to claim to be Christ, because the Bible makes clear that Christ is the rock, the head of the church. To falsely claim to be Christ, the head of the church, fulfills the prophecies that identify the antichrist.There is only one head of the church; the church is not a monster with two heads. To claim to be the rock of the church is to implicitly deny that Jesus is the rock of the church. To deny that Jesus is the rock is to deny that Jesus is Christ. Denying that Jesus is the Christ is a doctrine specifically identified in 1 John 2:22-23 as a teaching of the antichrist.Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. (1 John 2:22-23)Christ is the head of the church, not Peter! See Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:18. If Peter is now the rock of God’s church, why would Jesus call Peter Satan within moments of making Peter the foundation of the church? The following passage signifies that those who would have Peter as their rock, have someone who savourest the things of man and not of God.But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. (Matthew 16:23)Peter, to whom Jesus was talking, clearly understood what Jesus was saying when he said “upon this rock I will build my church.” The rock was Jesus. In the following passages Peter repeatedly refers to Jesus as the stone rejected by the builders becoming the head of the corner. Jesus is the only name under heaven that can save one from the eternal punishment of sin, not Peter and not the pope.Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (Acts 4:10-12)Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. (1 Peter 2:6-8)Read the following passages and determine for yourself who the TRUE rock of the church is.And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. (1 Corinthians 10:4)And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone. (Ephesians 2:20)For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (1Corinthians 3:11)My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation is from him. He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be moved. (Psalms 62:5-6)He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. (Deuteronomy 32:4)There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. (1 Samuel 2:2)And he said, The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence. (2 Samuel 22:2-3)The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower. (Psalms 18:2)For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God? (Psalms 18:31)And there is about 20 more verses that I left out but I think you get the point. Also please answer me this why would Peter deny Jesus three times if he is the rock? Surely he would know better.Here is another explanation of Matthew 16:18http://www.christianityboard.com/rock-matt...808.html?t=7808
 

epistemaniac

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Sorry. It's just that the truth has set me free!! It's just a little difficult when my so many lies are told about my church. I just wish people who disagree with Catholicism disagreed with what the Church ACTUALLY teaches rather than what they THINK the Church teaches. God Bless
I am one who disagrees with what the church actually teaches. I have family members in the Roman Church, generations of them, and have bounced what I have learned off of various family members, sent questions through them to the clergy, etc. My biggest problem with Rome is that they teach a false gospel. Yes, grace is important, but its not enough, Rome teaches that good works/obedience to the law are necessary to be saved. Rome soldified her stance against the true gospel at Trent where she taught that persons who believe as I do are, according to Rome, and despite Vatican II, Rome has never admitted her error, and the way she is structered, could never do so, because that would be admitting that the Pope can err when speaking ex cathedra, and this, she will never do. Anyways.... Rome says that I am accursed, damned, "anathema" because of my beliefs... Rome says:CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.CANON 12: "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursedCanon 14: "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema." Canon 24: "If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema." Canon 33: "If any one saith, that, by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema. 1. This council declares that if anyone disagrees with it, they are damned."I believe that it is faith alone that justifies, in fact I believe the thing that Rome condemns in all the above instances..... I believe that the Apocrypha is not canonical, according to Rome I am anathema for this as well... also because I believe that in the sacraments the bread and wine do not literally become the body and blood of Christ, I am anathema for this too.... therefore, according to Rome, I am anathema. However, if Rome has admitted her error on these proclamations, has rescinded them and now says that her anathemas should be absolved, I am all ears. In any case, while I disagree with Rome on many issues, the foremost is the gospel itself, here I think the Reformers got it right, and if they would have only reformed the church during Luther's day, instead of stubbornly and obstinately holding on to their traditions, wrongly elevating those traditions to the same level of authority as the Scriptures, we would not have had such a horrendous split. Rome is the cause of this split, because sh is unable to engage in self correction, because of her hierarchical structure. I do do not think that Rome has always been apostate as a body, but they surely are now.blessings,Ken
 

epistemaniac

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I wanted to respond to all of the misinformation and utter blasphemies that were claimed by people on here toward my beloved church: The Roman Catholic Church. I thought a new thread would be a little better. I will just make a few points, and I invite anyone on here to respond to them:1. Catholics DO NOT worship the pope. He is a sinner, just like you and me. But he's also the shepherd of our church, and he needs our prayers.2. The pictures some of you posted on here of the pope with Nazi soldiers is ridiculous. There is ample evidence to prove that the pope DID NOT aid the Nazis during WW2. In fact, just the opposite happened. Thousands of jews were saved as a result of the pope and other courageous priests and bishops who hid jews in the seminaries and other Catholic Churches throughout Europe. 3. You can go on and on about the Book of Revelation and the Blessed Virgin. That is only your fallible interpretation of these passages (the whole crux of Protestantism). And no, we don't worship Mary by the way.4. Can anyone on here explain to me why I have grown in holiness and have developed a deeper relationship with Christ ever since I truly embraced my Catholic faith? Wouldn't an "evil institution" (like so many of you claim the Catholic church is) be taking me AWAY from Christ?That's all I have for now.....That's all I have
The crux of Protestantism is not fallible interpretation. At any rate, Roman Catholic scholars are hardly in agreement with one another in as unified a manner as some would like Protestants to think. There is deep division and disagreement within Rome on all sorts of issues. So please do not be dishonest and try and paint a rosy picture of something that does not exist. Why have you grown in holiness etc....? A Mormon or a Jehovah's Witness would make the same claims as you are making for yourself.... why should I believe you or them, or you over them...? While on a subjective level you may THINK you have grown in holiness, but where ever you have embraced non biblical or anti biblical beliefs and practices, despite the fact that you think or feel you are growing in holiness, much like a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness would claim, the fact is you are not growing in holiness, but rather growing in conformity to Roman rites and gaining affirmation form them as a societal group, which reinforces any enjoyable subjective feelings you might have had, leading you to believe that you are growing in holiness, when all you are really doing is helping to affirm other's allegiances to Rome, as they reciprocate and reinforce your allegiance to Rome. The same thing happens in Jehovah's Witness circles... a person joins the church, this makes the existing members feel good that another person has "come home to the true church" just like they have, this makes both parties experience a subjective affirmation that they too have made the right decision about which church is THE true church, which makes them feel glad that they have chosen the church that they have chosen, and they mutually feed off one another's subjective feelings, and reaffirm their commitments to the church they all perceive as being the true church. In any case, growing in outward conformity to Rome's traditions is not the same thing as growing in holiness at all. People can absolutely master the language and rites within the Roman church, and yet their hearts are still far from God. Priests who molest little children are perfect examples of people able to go through all the motions, that outwardly they seem to be holy godly individuals, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. This is no different today then it was in OT times and NT times with the Pharisees. God wants the heart, not outward conformity to a bunch of rules and regulations. Of course, you COULD indeed be growing in holiness and sanctification, if so, it would be in spite of Rome and her false teachings, not because of them. I believe that there are true Christians within Rome, but I also believe they have a moral obligation to leave that church immediately because they teach a false gospel and are an apostate body. After all, you should not really ever think that you are saved in that church, you cannot think you are saved or say that you know you are saved. The church feeds you this line because that keeps you on the hook, so to speak, for you have to keep coming to them as they believe that one can only be saved by taking in the sacraments that, conveniently enough, only they are qualified to administer. So your salvation is always unsure, you are kept in the dark about your salvation, always on edge, always wondering.... "how much time will I have to spend in purgatory before I am holy enough to see God?" Maybe you won't get to see God at all.... maybe all your time spent going through all the motions that Rome deems necessary to salvation are not necessary, because maybe Jesus has already done all that needed to be done in order to save you? Maybe there is no need for your to add your tainted works to His perfect works in order to be saved. After all, when will you know that you have done enough works in order to truly be saved? Answer: Never. I encourage you to fall on Christ alone for your salvation, only His works are perfect, only He has truly paid the price for sins, and all you have to do is trust Christ for your salvation. You don't need officially administered sacraments form some clergy member. You need Christ. sola scriptura sola fide sola gratia solus Christus sola Dei Gloriablessings,Ken
 

epistemaniac

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Originally Posted by goldy 1. With regard to Mary and statues. I have a statue of Mary in my front yard. Do I bow or kneel in front of that statue? No. Let me ask you this: Do you have pictures of family members in your home? If so, why? Do you worship those pictures? I'm guessing that if you do have pictures of family members in your home it's because they are reminders of the love you have for them and the joy/love they bring to your life. What about statues of Abraham Lincoln or other former leaders in Washington D.C.? Do people worship them also? Of course not!! This is our view of statues, holy pictures, etc. As far as bowing or kneeling in front of a statue, this is simply a sign of reverence. If I kneel at my bedside each night while saying prayers, does that mean that I worship my bed? Of course not!! Kneeling or bowing doesn't mean that you are necessarily worshipping something. So again, Catholics don't worship Mary, the pope, the saints, etc.
This is a false comparison and I would think that any honest informed Roman catholic would know this. The reason why is this: we do not think our family members are co-redemptrix or Mediatrix.... a role reserved solely for Jesus Christ. Now even if you do not personally feel as strongly about Mary as to attribute these titles and abilities to her, this does not fail to show 1) the deep division in Roman Catholicism over Mary's role and 2) that even if you personally do not attribute these titles to her, many within Roman Catholicism do. So, again, comparing having a photograph of a family member in one's home in no way compares to having a statue of Mary, because the 2 are thought of very very differently on aj theological level.Secondly one can believe that Peter had a very important role in the early church, not demean that in any way, and still disagree with Rome's views on the papacy. I would also remind you that Peter was not followed in any absolute way by the early church, nor did they refer to him as "Pope", he was a leader among other leaders. In fact, Peter had to be sternly corrected for teaching and believing false doctrines by Paul.... Galatians 2:11-16 (ESV) 11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. 13 And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?” 15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."Hardly a good start for a Pope. In any case, you do not see Peter being approached in the NT as if he was THE head of the church. The church in Jerusalem had numerous leaders, they convened together on issues, made decisions, and Peter is never shown as having THE last word on ANY issue.blessings,ken
 

epistemaniac

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Excellent posts Ken.
thanks.... same to ya buddy... but more of it
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blessings,Ken
 

goldy

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I left because I felt like I was being lied to all my life. I left because I could see that the RCH does not follow gods word. It all started when I started to ask some questions like...where did easter come from? where did Christmas come from? Why do we pray to statutes? Why did the RCC murder millions of people in the middle ages for reading the Bible? Why are they so rich and so many are still so poor? etc...an interesting spin on things. However you seem contradict yourself. You say you do not bow in front of the statue but then go on to say it is a sign of reverence. Its really simply goldy, God said do not do it. He gets jealous when you do it so don't. If its for reverence or worship or whatever you would like to call it, please listen to God on this one do not do it.Isn't it interesting that this church is never mentioned by name. Why does the Bible never mention the Roman Catholic church? But the RCC somehow feels that this verse is a reverence to them.Notice very carefully in the epistles. At the beginning of each epistle who are the apostles greeting exactly? The apostle is greeting a people not a building or a religion. That is why we have Romans (citizens of Rome), Corinthians (citizens of Corinth) etc. They are not saying greeting to all the Catholics of Rome. No he is saying greetings to all the Romans of the church. Also I could go and say that the Catholic church did not start until around the year 310. But, that is something your going to have to find yourself. Just do not believe everything they tell you.Also, if Peter was the first pope then why was he never in Rome? Paul is greeting people in Rome but never mentions Peter not once. Why? You think he would. We must realize that Peter was an apostle to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles. The headship of the church is reserved to Christ alone. “[H]e is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”(Colossians 1:18) Christ will not share his glory nor his authority nor his station with anyone, Christ has preeminence in all things. “For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.” (Exodus 34:14) The Old Testament prophecies of the coming Christ indicate that the cornerstone of the church is to be a heavenly stone that is cut out without hands, and the church will grow from this stone to become a large spiritual mountain and fill the earth. See Daniel 2:34-45. This prophesied rock is Christ. For a man to claim to be the rock of the church is to claim to be Christ, because the Bible makes clear that Christ is the rock, the head of the church. To falsely claim to be Christ, the head of the church, fulfills the prophecies that identify the antichrist.There is only one head of the church; the church is not a monster with two heads. To claim to be the rock of the church is to implicitly deny that Jesus is the rock of the church. To deny that Jesus is the rock is to deny that Jesus is Christ. Denying that Jesus is the Christ is a doctrine specifically identified in 1 John 2:22-23 as a teaching of the antichrist.Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. (1 John 2:22-23)Christ is the head of the church, not Peter! See Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:18. If Peter is now the rock of God’s church, why would Jesus call Peter Satan within moments of making Peter the foundation of the church? The following passage signifies that those who would have Peter as their rock, have someone who savourest the things of man and not of God.But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. (Matthew 16:23)Peter, to whom Jesus was talking, clearly understood what Jesus was saying when he said “upon this rock I will build my church.” The rock was Jesus. In the following passages Peter repeatedly refers to Jesus as the stone rejected by the builders becoming the head of the corner. Jesus is the only name under heaven that can save one from the eternal punishment of sin, not Peter and not the pope.Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (Acts 4:10-12)Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. (1 Peter 2:6-8)Read the following passages and determine for yourself who the TRUE rock of the church is.And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. (1 Corinthians 10:4)And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone. (Ephesians 2:20)For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (1Corinthians 3:11)My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation is from him. He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be moved. (Psalms 62:5-6)He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. (Deuteronomy 32:4)There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. (1 Samuel 2:2)And he said, The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence. (2 Samuel 22:2-3)The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower. (Psalms 18:2)For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God? (Psalms 18:31)And there is about 20 more verses that I left out but I think you get the point. Also please answer me this why would Peter deny Jesus three times if he is the rock? Surely he would know better.Here is another explanation of Matthew 16:18http://www.christianityboard.com/rock-matt...808.html?t=7808
Wow, where do I start with this? Again, with regard to statues. Could you show me where in the Cathechism of the Catholic Church where it says we should pray to statues? Sorry, we don't pray to statues. I tried to explain it as best as I could but it seemed to have flown right over your head. And what about Christmas and Easter? Don't follow you there.As for all else, I would just say that I disagree with your interpretation of the passages you quoted in the above post. That may sound like taking the easy way out, but the bottom line is that I could quote verse after verse to you and I'm guessing you would say, "No, that's not what that means" We could go on forever about it. You say that a lot of what the Catholic Church teaches isn't in God's Word. I say that it's all there. But since you choose to be the infallible interpretor of your Bible, there's really not much more to say is there?
 

goldy

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This is a false comparison and I would think that any honest informed Roman catholic would know this. The reason why is this: we do not think our family members are co-redemptrix or Mediatrix.... a role reserved solely for Jesus Christ. Now even if you do not personally feel as strongly about Mary as to attribute these titles and abilities to her, this does not fail to show 1) the deep division in Roman Catholicism over Mary's role and 2) that even if you personally do not attribute these titles to her, many within Roman Catholicism do. So, again, comparing having a photograph of a family member in one's home in no way compares to having a statue of Mary, because the 2 are thought of very very differently on aj theological level.Secondly one can believe that Peter had a very important role in the early church, not demean that in any way, and still disagree with Rome's views on the papacy. I would also remind you that Peter was not followed in any absolute way by the early church, nor did they refer to him as "Pope", he was a leader among other leaders. In fact, Peter had to be sternly corrected for teaching and believing false doctrines by Paul.... Galatians 2:11-16 (ESV) 11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. 13 And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?” 15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."Hardly a good start for a Pope. In any case, you do not see Peter being approached in the NT as if he was THE head of the church. The church in Jerusalem had numerous leaders, they convened together on issues, made decisions, and Peter is never shown as having THE last word on ANY issue.blessings,ken
I disagree with your interpretation about the Peter in the Bible. With regard to Mary, there is no division within the Church about her. We've had the same beliefs about her for the past 20 centuries. You seem to claim you know an awful lot about Catholicism. Where do you get your information? Maybe you could teach me since I'm obviously not an "informed Catholic"
 

Alpha and Omega

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Wow, where do I start with this? Again, with regard to statues. Could you show me where in the Cathechism of the Catholic Church where it says we should pray to statues? Sorry, we don't pray to statues. I tried to explain it as best as I could but it seemed to have flown right over your head. And what about Christmas and Easter? Don't follow you there.As for all else, I would just say that I disagree with your interpretation of the passages you quoted in the above post. That may sound like taking the easy way out, but the bottom line is that I could quote verse after verse to you and I'm guessing you would say, "No, that's not what that means" We could go on forever about it. You say that a lot of what the Catholic Church teaches isn't in God's Word. I say that it's all there. But since you choose to be the infallible interpretor of your Bible, there's really not much more to say is there?
Please show me these verses then. As for christmas and easter do some research and you might find how they started and what they actually are.As far as my interpretation, well I think it is pretty clear who the rock of the church is. If you cannot see that then there is a problem.as for catholics praying to statues well here you go....
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