The Real Jesus

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justbyfaith

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Not one of those scriptures do I reject.
The Holy Spirit teaches us when we compare spiritual thing with spiritual (1 Corinthians 2:13 (kjv)).

We may look at two different verses that contrast or complement each other; and if we see them as isolated from each other we will not get the insight that we might get if we combine the verses and come to a solid conclusion based on the contrast. When we reconcile the apparent contradictions we can come up with sound doctrine that is faithful and true.

I was just thinking of this truth recently and your statement gave me opportunity to express it.
 
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FollowHim

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Christ is the Father veiled in flesh.

Jhn 14:7, If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Jhn 14:8, Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jhn 14:9, Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Jhn 14:10, Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Jhn 14:11, Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.


Jhn 1:18, No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

You may wonder what it means that Jesus is in the bosom of the Father. How is He the Father if Hr is in the bosom of the Father? The answer is, Jesus is come in the flesh; and as a human being He is less than the Father and dwells within His bosom (while in His Deity He is equal to the Father, John 5:18). But in His Spirit He is the same Person as the Father; and also has a human nature from Mary. Thus His personality is different from that of the Father, who inhabiteth eternity (Isaiah 57:15) as a Spirit (John 4:23-24).
Christ is not the Father. Their essence approach, attitudes are the same, but the Father is everything and Jesus is a part of the whole. If you know Jesus you know the Father.

This is why they are the trinity and not the one, or Jesus is created etc. Jesus was submitted to the Father's will, all flowed from Him. In a sense Jesus is our perfect goal, walk, as limited as us, but demonstrating the possibility of total fulfillment in the Lord.

Holiness and purity in the Father would kill us but Jesus has seen His face. Through Jesus's cleansing we are able to enter the holy of holies. Or more precisely become the holy of holies. God bless you.
 

justbyfaith

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Christ is not the Father. Their essence approach, attitudes are the same, but the Father is everything and Jesus is a part of the whole. If you know Jesus you know the Father.

This is why they are the trinity and not the one, or Jesus is created etc. Jesus was submitted to the Father's will, all flowed from Him. In a sense Jesus is our perfect goal, walk, as limited as us, but demonstrating the possibility of total fulfillment in the Lord.

Holiness and purity in the Father would kill us but Jesus has seen His face. Through Jesus's cleansing we are able to enter the holy of holies. Or more precisely become the holy of holies. God bless you.

There is clearly only one Lord in scripture (Ephesians 4:5). And Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21 tells us that this Lord is the Father.

However, 1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv) tells us clearly that no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost (the Spirit of truth).

Again, there is one Lord in scripture (1 Corinthians 8:6); and this Lord is the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).

I know that you may not yet agree with these truths, @FollowHim;

But I would encourage you to think about the scriptures that I have referenced above as they apply to each other.

I do consider you to be pretty solid in most of what you preach; but even the best of us have room to grow in our understanding.
 
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Berserk

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No, actually He doesn't...in this passage Jesus is drawing the man out to make the conclusion that because the man knew that Jesus was good, he might come to the faithful realization that Jesus was also God.

In John 8:24; John 8:58; John 8:59; John 10:31-33; and Exodus 3:14, it should be clear that Jesus broke normal grammatical usage to make a claim and that the Pharisees understood His claim; to the extent that they tried to stone Him twice for what they considered to be blasphemy. When He asked them the reason why they had picked up stones to stone Him, they said, "because thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

This is incontrovertible evidence that Jesus claimed to be God. He even made it a salvation issue that we believe in this doctrine (the Deity of Christ) in John 8:24.

Jesus therefore is either a liar on the level of the devil of hell; or He is a lunatic on the level of someone who thinks he is a poached egg; or He is the Lord God who created us, just as He said. But none of this business about Jesus being merely a great moral teacher. A lunatic or a devil would never qualify as a great moral teacher. I conclude that because He was a great moral teacher, and also claimed to be God, that He is the Lord God even as He said. Because a deceiving liar would have neither the moral rectitude nor the desire to teach great moral virtue to the people; and a lunatic would not have the capacity of mind to do so. That leaves only one option: Jesus is God. And since he also made it a salvation issue in John 8:24 to believe that He is, those who deny the doctrine of the Deity of Christ are faced with the fate that is coming to them, that they will die in their sins unless they repent of their unbelief and receive Jesus Christ as the God who created them; for without receiving Him they cannot have within them the love that God requires; for God is love: and in rejecting Him they are rejecting love.

concept gotten from C.S. Lewis.

No, you overlook the fact that Jesus responds to the man's flattery ("Good teacher"). And your interpretation is refuted by the fact that in this context the subject of Jesus' identity and divinity is never resumed. Also, you neglect my point about the need Jesus felt to receive John's baptism of repentance.
 

FollowHim

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There is clearly only one Lord in scripture (Ephesians 4:5). And Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21 tells us that this Lord is the Father.

However, 1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv) tells us clearly that no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost (the Spirit of truth).

Again, there is one Lord in scripture (1 Corinthians 8:6); and this Lord is the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).

I know that you may not yet agree with these truths, @FollowHim;

But I would encourage you to think about the scriptures that I have referenced above as they apply to each other.

I do consider you to be pretty solid in most of what you preach; but even the best of us have room to grow in our understanding.
In the end however you describe Jesus various facts are essential. He is God, eternal in the flesh. He died and rose again for the forgiveness of sins.

I am a trinitarian. It is this simple. Do you believe something else?
 

justbyfaith

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In the end however you describe Jesus various facts are essential. He is God, eternal in the flesh. He died and rose again for the forgiveness of sins.

I am a trinitarian. It is this simple. Do you believe something else?
No, I also believe that the Lord is Triune.

But I believe that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are distinct rather than separate (as the creeds testify). And I also hold to a literal interpretation of Isaiah 9:6-7, that the son who was given, his name shall be called, among other things, the everlasting Father. And that this truth will be revealed to all in the final days because of the zeal of the LORD of hosts.
 

justbyfaith

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No, you overlook the fact that Jesus responds to the man's flattery ("Good teacher"). And your interpretation is refuted by the fact that in this context the subject of Jesus' identity and divinity is never resumed. Also, you neglect my point about the need Jesus felt to receive John's baptism of repentance.
Jesus was baptized to set an example for us, and that is all. He didn't need to repent; He was sinless (2 Corinthians 5:21, Hebrews 4:15, 1 Peter 2:22, 1 John 3:5).
 

Johan

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God is able to walk and chew gum simultaneously.
But this is more about Spiritual Revelation. Because in this we grow further. When you take it seriously of course. If not you
just stagnate where you are.
 

Johan

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While your replies are interesting they do not answer the question.
What evidence do you have that only one name or title can be used by Jesus?
Actually we are not into "facts" here. We are into Revelation. Because in Revelation we grow. You are to "prove" all things.

Thess. 5
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

This mean that you have to accept what I said and see if it is "good" or not. When God Reveal it you know. Nothing anybody say can have any influence on you and you do not need to fear it. Because only God can Establish it. So the point here is this. It is for your benefit in your spiritual growth. At this point in time Christians have no Identity. That is bad. Because they do not know that their Identity is Jesus. They do not know they are Jesus. And this is the Power of Jesus. He knew who He was. If you do not know this you will never be Powerful. All the Power is given us in Jesus. But because of religion it has been stolen. So In Jesus we have the Father manifesting the Word to us. This Word create us to be the Real Son or Jesus. The Word was not Jesus. You are Jesus.
 

Johan

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In a sense Jesus and His words are the same thing. Jesus is God's spoken message made flesh.
Everything that is eternal is God. In Jesus the essence of who He is is God, but not it's complete expression. If Christ was the Father no one could see His face and live. Christ had to be the message without judgement, an expression of the Father to show His heart but not destructive.
What we are is between rebellion and communion, with a choice.

The essence of Jesus or the Life of Jesus or the soul of Jesus was God our Father.

John 14
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.


His soul was not that of a Son to God. The Son - Life that we see is the manifestation of the Word to create us to be the Son that we See. Jesus was the Word and we are the Real Son. Born from God by the Word and True Sons because we are born of God. Jesus was never a Son and born of God.

Taken further. Your Father died for you and will give you the source of Loving Him with all your heart soul and mind. Without this you should rather Love the "Son".
 

Johan

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The Holy Spirit teaches us when we compare spiritual thing with spiritual (1 Corinthians 2:13 (kjv)).

When we realize that the "Holy Spirit" is actually Our Father teaching His Child we can come more into the Love of our Father and us being His Child. Where we should Love Him with all our heart soul and mind. Being divided in your Love is just that. And the consequences is not arriving at the Love for your Father that you should have.

Our Father is Spirit. Or the "Holy Spirit". He is not flesh.


John 4
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
 

Johan

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No, I also believe that the Lord is Triune.
God said many times He is One. If you have 3 Gods you are divided in your Love and will never arrive at Loving your Father with your whole heart soul and mind. Because most of your Love will go to Jesus that died for you and the rest will go to the Holy Spirit that is guiding you. But when you Love your Dad that died for you and is now guiding you as a Father should His Child then it is easy. Lack of Loving your Father is because of a "divided love".
 

Johan

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I am a trinitarian. It is this simple. Do you believe something else?
This is called a "divided" love. Because the most will go to Jesus for dying for you sins. God "His Father" sending him to do the bad part will not earn much devotion here. And then there is the "holy spirit" too. Guiding you etc.

But on the other hand: When God your Daddy redeemed you by His death and is now guiding you as a Loving Father should it is easy to Love Him with all your heart soul and mind.
 

Johan

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All who are born of God are sons.

I agree. And this is only a Reality in Jesus. As in Jesus the Word of the Birth is given. Prior their was no such word and thus prior their existed no True Son of God. As only a Son really Born of the Father can be a True Son. So only we can be that. Jesus was the Word of God. Spoken and manifested by God in the year 0. Nothing more and nothing less. So looking at Jesus as in a Mirror we can be the Son. That mean a 100% Identification with the Word in Name and in Life. Without this Faith of God we are not the True Son and not an example of God's True Love to us. But we become and inferior product of our own imaginations. This is what religion has done. And this is why the Son is not visible on earth anymore. Just churches and their different doctrines and religions. So sad.
 

Johan

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Jesus is less than the Father in His humanity.

In His Deity, He is the Father.

I agree. Because He was the Word and not the Father. The Life of the Word was God and became our Father by the Word. But the Word was just that. The Word manifested by God to create us to be the Real Sons. So this meant that we are more than the Word. We are the Real Son or Child or Jesus. This is God's Love to Us. But of course religion and doctrine and church orientation has veiled the Word from us and we became the reality of our own dogmas. And we are not the Workmanship of God anymore that is an honor to His glory and His Love to us. We became a sad state of being.
 

justbyfaith

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None of us are Jesus. In the last days men will come saying, "I am Christ" and will deceive many.
 

prism

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But this is more about Spiritual Revelation. Because in this we grow further. When you take it seriously of course. If not you
just stagnate where you are.
IOW, are you saying you didn't understand my comment, 'God is able to walk and chew gum simultaneously.'?
 

FollowHim

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The essence of Jesus or the Life of Jesus or the soul of Jesus was God our Father.

John 14
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.


His soul was not that of a Son to God. The Son - Life that we see is the manifestation of the Word to create us to be the Son that we See. Jesus was the Word and we are the Real Son. Born from God by the Word and True Sons because we are born of God. Jesus was never a Son and born of God.

Taken further. Your Father died for you and will give you the source of Loving Him with all your heart soul and mind. Without this you should rather Love the "Son".
Speculating is a dangerous thing. Jesus has a soul and it is not the Father. Jesus is a separate being from the Father, but they are one in who they are. This is essential for God to show with all our limitations the walk of love is possible. Jesus was 100% man, yet holy, pure and righteous. Amen
 

Johan

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Speculating is a dangerous thing. Jesus has a soul and it is not the Father. Jesus is a separate being from the Father, but they are one in who they are. This is essential for God to show with all our limitations the walk of love is possible. Jesus was 100% man, yet holy, pure and righteous. Amen

I didn't give speculation. I gave the Word.