10 different NT warning-types against eternal security

Davy said:

Acts 20:27-31
2 Peter 2:1-3
2 Timothy 4:2-4
1 Timothy 5:11-15
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

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Hello @dave,

Warning of these things is necessary and important, and, as you have said, taking note of them is vital, especially as the day of Christ draws near.

Yet that does not negate the fact that God's promises are sure, and that the gift of life will not be taken away from us. We can suffer the loss of reward, given for faithfulness and enduring to the end, but eternal life is ensured in Christ Jesus. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

We are indeed His workmanship.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

charity said:

Hello @dave,

Warning of these things is necessary and important, and, as you have said, taking note of them is vital, especially as the day of Christ draws near.

Yet that does not negate the fact that God's promises are sure, and that the gift of life will not be taken away from us. We can suffer the loss of reward, given for faithfulness and enduring to the end, but eternal life is ensured in Christ Jesus. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

We are indeed His workmanship.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

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Eternal life that is not eternal is not life in Him...(John's First Epistle would bear this out...)

charity said:

Hello @dave,

Warning of these things is necessary and important, and, as you have said, taking note of them is vital, especially as the day of Christ draws near.

Yet that does not negate the fact that God's promises are sure, and that the gift of life will not be taken away from us. We can suffer the loss of reward, given for faithfulness and enduring to the end, but eternal life is ensured in Christ Jesus. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

We are indeed His workmanship.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Click to expand...

The 'gifts and calling of God' is an idea you pulled from Romans 11 about the Jews whom God blinded away from The Gospel so it could go to the Gentiles. Let's use them as an example since you brought the idea up.

In Matthew 8:11-12, Jesus showed the unbelieving Jews would be cast out to the outer darkness because of refusing Him. So how does that show those orthodox Jews still will have that gifts and calling of God, because that idea is applied to them in Romans 11:25-31?

farouk said:

Eternal life that is not eternal is not life in Him...(John's First Epistle would bear this out...)

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Hello @farouk,

What I am referring to is:-

'But now being made free from sin,
and become servants to God,
ye have your fruit unto holiness,
and the end everlasting life.
For the wages of sin is death;
but the gift of God is eternal life
through Jesus Christ our Lord.'
(Romans 6:22-23)

'For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained
that we should walk in them.'
(Ephesians 2:8)

Thank you, Farouk,
In Christ Jesus
Our Beloved Lord.
Chris

Davy said:

The 'gifts and calling of God' is an idea you pulled from Romans 11 about the Jews whom God blinded away from The Gospel so it could go to the Gentiles. Let's use them as an example since you brought the idea up.

In Matthew 8:11-12, Jesus showed the unbelieving Jews would be cast out to the outer darkness because of refusing Him. So how does that show those orthodox Jews still will have that gifts and calling of God, because that idea is applied to them in Romans 11:25-31?

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Hello @dave, (beloved of God and precious),

Yes, I was referring to:-

'For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery,
lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
that blindness in part is happened to Israel,
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved:
as it is written, "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer,
\and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is My covenant unto them,
when I shall take away their sins."
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:
but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
For as ye in times past have not believed God,
yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Even so have these also now not believed,
that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief,
that He might have mercy upon all.
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
how unsearchable are his judgments, and His ways past finding out!
For who hath known the mind of the Lord?
or who hath been His counsellor?
Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things:
to whom be glory for ever. Amen.'
(Romans 11:25-36)

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

charity said:

Hello @farouk,

What I am referring to is:-

'But now being made free from sin,
and become servants to God,
ye have your fruit unto holiness,
and the end everlasting life.
For the wages of sin is death;
but the gift of God is eternal life
through Jesus Christ our Lord.'
(Romans 6:22-23)

Click to expand...

Even with that, you cannot just skip what all Paul said in that Romans 6 chapter prior to those 22nd and 23rd verses which point to a condition...


Rom 6:11-17
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
KJV

Doing that obedience can't involve 'grace', because obedience involves works, at least that's what you Hyper-dispensationalists are taught. Paul is admonishing there to be watchful of sin, and relates the guarantee of God's grace unto eternal life to that condition.

It's simple common sense that we are only saved by God's grace through His Son, because we cannot save ourselves. That's not of works, but is a free gift. That's not even up for debate, so you guys need to quit trying to make that into a debate.

What you Hyper-dispensationalists need to learn from Scripture is that you can... fall away from Christ IF... YOU so choose. This is proven by the five foolish virgins in the parable Jesus gave in Matthew 25, and about the unprofitable servant in that same chapter, and by those of Matthew 7 that claimed to preach in His name and do miracles in His name, but did iniquity.

Davy said:

The 'gifts and calling of God' is an idea you pulled from Romans 11 about the Jews whom God blinded away from The Gospel so it could go to the Gentiles. Let's use them as an example since you brought the idea up.

In Matthew 8:11-12, Jesus showed the unbelieving Jews would be cast out to the outer darkness because of refusing Him. So how does that show those orthodox Jews still will have that gifts and calling of God, because that idea is applied to them in Romans 11:25-31?

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Hello again, Beloved of God,

You refer to the following passage of Scripture, and especially the words highlighted:-

'The centurion answered and said,
"Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof:
but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me:
and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth;
and to another, Come, and he cometh;
and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it."
When Jesus heard it, He marvelled, and said to them that followed,
"Verily I say unto you,
I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
And I say unto you,
That many shall come from the east and west,
and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob,
in the kingdom of heaven.
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness:
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
And Jesus said unto the centurion,
Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.
And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.'
(Matthew 8:10)

There will be many in Israel, who will not be allowed into the kingdom which is of heaven. That being the New Jerusalem which comes down out of heaven. For they will not be found worthy. That will produce 'weeping and gnashing of teeth'. Those who are worthy will enter into their reward. Again it is a matter of reward and not of loss of life.

* What is your concept of, 'outer darkness'?

In Christ Jesus
Chris

charity said:

Hello @dave, (beloved of God and precious),

Yes, I was referring to:-

'For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery,
lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
that blindness in part is happened to Israel,
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved:
as it is written, "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer,
\and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is My covenant unto them,
when I shall take away their sins."
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:
but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
For as ye in times past have not believed God,
yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Even so have these also now not believed,
that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief,
that He might have mercy upon all.
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
how unsearchable are his judgments, and His ways past finding out!
For who hath known the mind of the Lord?
or who hath been His counsellor?
Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things:
to whom be glory for ever. Amen.'
(Romans 11:25-36)

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

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You didn't understand my question at all.

Those unbelieving Jews in Romans 11 are promised Salvation according to Paul there. How is that, since they reject Christ for this present world?

What you are actually pushing is also called Hyper-Calvinism. It's the idea that our fates (calling) are already laid out for us, and we cannot change it. Only the ones God has called can be saved and that's all, that is what they believe, which of course is a false doctrine.

charity said:

There will be many in Israel, who will not be allowed into the kingdom which is of heaven. That being the New Jerusalem which comes down out of heaven. For they will not be found worthy. That will produce 'weeping and gnashing of teeth'. Those who are worthy will enter into their reward. Again it is a matter of reward and not of loss of life.

* What is your concept of, 'outer darkness'?

In Christ Jesus
Chris

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For you to properly understand that you'd have to go back into the Old Testament prophets and study, especially in the latter chapters of Ezekiel. And then relate those still yet unfulfilled scriptures to the Book of Revelation.

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
KJV

That is of the time of the "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect on earth. The outer darkness is that area outside the holy city where the unsaved will be.

Davy said:

Even with that, you cannot just skip what all Paul said in that Romans 6 chapter prior to those 22nd and 23rd verses which point to a condition...

Rom 6:11-17
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
KJV

Doing that obedience can't involve 'grace', because obedience involves works, at least that's what you Hyper-dispensationalists are taught. Paul is admonishing there to be watchful of sin, and relates the guarantee of God's grace unto eternal life to that condition.

It's simple common sense that we are only saved by God's grace through His Son, because we cannot save ourselves. That's not of works, but is a free gift. That's not even up for debate, so you guys need to quit trying to make that into a debate.

What you Hyper-dispensationalists need to learn from Scripture is that you can... fall away from Christ IF... YOU so choose. This is proven by the five foolish virgins in the parable Jesus gave in Matthew 25, and about the unprofitable servant in that same chapter, and by those of Matthew 7 that claimed to preach in His name and do miracles in His name, but did iniquity.

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Hello again, @dave,

Yes, Praise God! In believing God's Word concerning His Son the Lord Jesus Christ, His Person and His Work: the believer has 'obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered unto them'. He has passed from death to life, been brought out of darkness into light; out from under the law of sin and death, into the law of the Spirit of life which is in Christ Jesus.

Praise God! For His Faithfulness
Praise His Holy Name! For He has accepted us in the Beloved.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

charity said:

Hello again, @dave,

Yes, Praise God! In believing God's Word concerning His Son the Lord Jesus Christ, His Person and His Work: the believer has 'obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered unto them'. He has passed from death to life, been brought out of darkness into light; out from under the law of sin and death, into the law of the Spirit of life which is in Christ Jesus.

Praise God! For His Faithfulness
Praise His Holy Name! For He has accepted us in the Beloved.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

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So you have just decided there's no need for you to watch against doing sin in your life?

Do you really believe you cannot ever sin anymore after having come to Jesus Christ?

Davy said:

You didn't understand my question at all.

Those unbelieving Jews in Romans 11 are promised Salvation according to Paul there. How is that, since they reject Christ for this present world?

What you are actually pushing is also called Hyper-Calvinism. It's the idea that our fates (calling) are already laid out for us, and we cannot change it. Only the ones God has called can be saved and that's all, that is what they believe, which of course is a false doctrine.

Click to expand...

Hello @dave,

I am sorry not to have understood you.

All Israel shall be saved, for God will forgive their sins, and deliver them. Blindness has happened to Israel, that the purpose of God be fulfilled. The veil is over their eyes now, but that will not always be so.

I have no idea what you mean by hyper-Calvinism, I'm afraid, and neither do I want to know. Christ is all I want to know, and the fullness of God which is in Him.

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

Davy said:

So you have just decided there's no need for you to watch against doing sin in your life?

Do you really believe you cannot ever sin anymore after having come to Jesus Christ?

Click to expand...

Oh, @dave,

I have no doubt that I am a sinner - saved by God's amazing Grace.

I have a body of humiliation now, while in this life, but when I am resurrected to be with Him for ever, I shall have a new body, a spiritual body, no longer bound by the flesh and it's ways.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

charity said:

Hello @dave,

I am sorry not to have understood you.

All Israel shall be saved, for God will forgive their sins, and deliver them. Blindness has happened to Israel, that the purpose of God be fulfilled. The veil is over their eyes now, but that will not always be so.

I have no idea what you mean by hyper-Calvinism, I'm afraid, and neither do I want to know. Christ is all I want to know, and the fullness of God which is in Him.

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

Click to expand...

There's a condition for Israel's future salvation. It depends on their belief on Jesus Christ as Messiah once God removes the blindness He put upon them. No one is automatically saved just by blood birth. We learn that even back in Old Testament times as only the believing remnant of Israel saved were under God's grace and election.

Calvinism is the idea that our fates are already chosen for us, i.e., that we believe on Jesus because God called us to believe before the foundation of this world (Ephesians 2). That is actually true, for 'some', like the OT Patriarchs, prophets, and Christ's Apostles. That is even shown in John 17, but John 17 also reveals a 2nd group that believe from the preaching by Christ's sent Apostles. Then Jesus prayed that we all become one in Him and The Father, one Body.

Thus there is an election according to grace like Paul taught, Paul himself being one of them, as Christ divinely intervened in his life and converted him. But the rest of us who come to believe on Jesus by our own free will, we are called, but not chosen like Paul, the Apostles and OT saints. This is why it's up to us to work out our own salvation by staying in Christ Jesus all the way to the end of this world. But for those who are chosen elect, like Paul, Christ will divinely intervene in their lives, even like Jonah who tried to get out of his duty he was chosen for by God.

justbyfaith said:

I am curious as to what people think of the following scripture...

1Jo 3:8, He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

I wonder if when people say such things as, "I am a sinner saved by grace;" that they realize that they are in effect saying, "I am a child of the devil who is nevertheless going to heaven."

Do the children of God therefore go to hell?

If the above statement (in larger letters) does not bother you, then I just wonder about your moral rectitude as a believer.

This along the lines of the subject of whether repentance is needed for salvation.

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Hey there JBF, excellent points!
The sinner friends of Christ we are. lol You and I, and everyone on this forum "committeth sin" should we plan a barbecue? Should we give up! Is all lost? "He that committeth sin is of the devil" Are we friends of Christ or friends of the devil?
What is the difference between committeth sin and practices sin?
Since abide is one of Johns favorite words, we need to discuss the meaning of that......
And let us also discuss repent. What does repent mean? Put it in motion for me. When Joe Pagan was listening to Paul preaching on the square, what did he have to know and do to repent? What did he have to do to be saved? As a Pagan, his morels were defined by his culture and he had a whole different definition for sin. Does he need to go to a Christian college? Remember the "chicken and the egg" Was he saved by his belief that Christ was God and Messiah? Or should he work and labor at setting up a schedule to know Christian theology and find someone to Baptism him? What if he was run over by a horse on the way to the Christian school? Today...since there is so many interpretations of the scriptures, can anyone really know the processes of salvation...so can anyone be saved today? Is this a brain twister?

Davy said:

There's a condition for Israel's future salvation. It depends on their belief on Jesus Christ as Messiah once God removes the blindness He put upon them. No one is automatically saved just by blood birth. We learn that even back in Old Testament times as only the believing remnant of Israel saved were under God's grace and election.

Click to expand...

Hello @dave,

'And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem,
the spirit of grace and of supplications:
and they shall look upon Me whom they have pierced,
and they shall mourn for Him,
as one mourneth for his only son,
and shall be in bitterness for him,
as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem,
as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.'
(Zechariah 12:10-11)

'But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts,
and write it in their hearts;
and will be their God, and they shall be My People.
(And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD:
for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:
for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.'
(Jeremiah 31:33-34)

@Dave,
Calvinism is the idea that our fates are already chosen for us, i.e., that we believe on Jesus because God called us to believe before the foundation of this world (Ephesians 2). That is actually true, for 'some', like the OT Patriarchs, prophets, and Christ's Apostles. That is even shown in John 17, but John 17 also reveals a 2nd group that believe from the preaching by Christ's sent Apostles. Then Jesus prayed that we all become one in Him and The Father, one Body.

Thus there is an election according to grace like Paul taught, Paul himself being one of them, as Christ divinely intervened in his life and converted him. But the rest of us who come to believe on Jesus by our own free will, we are called, but not chosen like Paul, the Apostles and OT saints. This is why it's up to us to work out our own salvation by staying in Christ Jesus all the way to the end of this world. But for those who are chosen elect, like Paul, Christ will divinely intervene in their lives, even like Jonah who tried to get out of his duty he was chosen for by God.

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* I do not agree with your summation here, @dave. Yet, I cannot respond to it at the moment, being called upon to do something else by my husband at the moment, which requires that I go off-line. Hopefully, I will be able to return to it when I am free.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

charity said:

Oh, @dave,

I have no doubt that I am a sinner - saved by God's amazing Grace.

I have a body of humiliation now, while in this life, but when I am resurrected to be with Him for ever, I shall have a new body, a spiritual body, no longer bound by the flesh and it's ways.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

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Hey there
Enjoying all of your posts. You have the word!
I had no idea that you were as firm on this...I stand should to shoulder with you on this.

I think much confusion comes when they ONLY see "saved or unsaved" but don't understand - saved- unsaved- and - loss of rewards or full inheritance.

Praise God always ! ....H

Grailhunter said:

Ok, this is going in a circle. Count me out.

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I understand. You need not answer my questions, or respond at all, naturally.

Much love!

Hi @Grailhunter;

I do believe that the basic preaching of the gospel contains the exhortation to repent.

It is the situation with what pseudo-Christian cults have done with the Bible that makes an education necessary.

There is a simplicity in the real gospel of Jesus Christ: repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Act 20:21, Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Co 11:3, But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

justbyfaith said:

Hi @Grailhunter;

I do believe that the basic preaching of the gospel contains the exhortation to repent.

It is the situation with what pseudo-Christian cults have done with the Bible that makes an education necessary.

There is a simplicity in the real gospel of Jesus Christ: repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Act 20:21, Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Co 11:3, But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

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Kool beans....hope all is well with you.
The point of my little questionnaire there...As they say, "keep it simple." I thoroughly believe I could but all the information needed to saved on a 3X5 card....(someone else's handwriting.) The average person in America, that rarely opens a Bible, knows more about Christianity then the multitudes of those saved in the biblical era. Those people were saved with a simple message. The Bible is the Word of God and a great thing, but that amount of information sets up a condition that people cannot see the forest for the trees.

It is the details that have caused so much confusion in the message and the multitude of interpretations that has fractured the Church. INTERPRETATIONS, the obey side of the religion...The focus on obeying rather than what you should be doing, generated denominations of "don't doers" religions. Righteousness based on what you don't do, rather than what you do. The person living in a closet and only coming out on Sundays, being the most righteous, in those religions

The word obey immediately calls in mind, obedience to the Law and Law need interpretations and the lawyers rush into the religion to add terms, conditions, stipulations, a judgmental spirit, and uncertainty to salvation. And because lawyers focus on fear and us fear to control, the Gospel of love turns to the Gospel of fear, brimstone, and damnation. Christ's return is something to fear, not something to look forward to. God so detested cowardice that the word does not appear in the Old or New Testament. (Look in the Strong's for the words coward or cowardice)

Have confidence in your salvation, do not fear, love the Lord, be good, and exhaust yourself doing good for one another. Be sure to know that the most intelligent being there is, would not have died on the cross to produce a plan of failure. A God died to save you, odds are good, the plan of a God, will be successful. Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. A plan for salvation that the gates of hell will not prevail against.