The Verdict... Guilty.

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4Jesus

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You present 8 Questions, of which you give credence to the one deceiver of mankind!
In all reality, Rabbinic Judaism started 300+ years before the birth of the Savior, and during His Ministry we see that He was taking them to task.

I do not know if you have ever heard that the Torah was a Fence, or a Hedge, Spiritually speaking, around the People. If they had stayed inside of the Torah [ Law] then God would have protected them!
Early Pharisse-ism is the start of, and is in extension to this day, called Rabbinic Judaism, of which these Jews, Rabbis, made all sorts of commandments, they claim to have put a new fence around the Torah to keep their People from breaking the Torah, so a fence around the fence, so to speak!! While Breaking the Commandment, Thou Shalt Not Add To, or Diminish From the Words of God!
So These men that followed what the Rabbis instruct, were and still are Guilty. So they Basically threw themselves under the Bus!

I do Agree that Satan has used influence to lead them to destruction, But they were also blinded, for a reason! If their blindness in part is to your Glory, what will be when their sight returns. Paul is a perfect example!!
Yes, Knowledge and acceptance of the Savior is Paramount to Salvation, yet as stated, after Judging God they did return to lifting Prayer up to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the one True God of Israel. Desperate Time's incur Desperate Measures, maybe they found Solace in their court, Remember there is but one unforgiveable sin, and that is to Insult the Very Spirit Of God.


As to this part of your post "Yes, Knowledge and acceptance of the Savior is Paramount to Salvation, yet as stated, after Judging God they did return to lifting Prayer up to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the one True God of Israel."

I'm sure they did pray to God-the-Father; though if they deny His Son, and don't listen to Him, why would He want to listen to them when they deny Him by denying His Son? John 2:23 "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also." It goes top -> down, not down -> up...

I don't disagree with what you said overall though - in fact, that was the point. If they judged God guilty, in reality, they have found themselves, along with the evil one, guilty, as they and the devil are responsible, thus are the guilty parties.

And I never said I was a pro at this...but I did begin a follow up with prosecuting the prosecutor (gotta go after the big dog) ;)
 
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brakelite

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I think that a new heart in Christ is set free to conquer sin in a way that we were not able to before, but we still fall short of perfection. We are not Christ, and we are not yet what we will be.
"in a way that we were not able to before"...if Jesus came to save us from our sins(Matt.1:22) why do Christians so often qualify that promise as you have done above? Either He came to do something and has accomplished it, or He came to do that which we by our unbelief cause the promise to be unrealised...and we then have a gospel wherein Jesus saves people not from, but in their sin.

Paul shows in Romans 1:18-3:20 that all men violate the law. We can't help it.
I agree with this...there can be no argument. But now it is my turn to qualify it. I would suggest that only those who are not born again can't help it.

And Christ showed this by revealing that even men who do not murder are still murdering if they hate, and so on. The law is violated in multiple different ways just by our betraying emotions, even if we do not act upon them. Paul then goes on in Galatians 3 to tell us that if we reply upon the law even slightly to prove our righteousness, then we must rely on it in fullness, rather than on Christ. Which, we've seen in scripture, is impossible.
This is a straw man argument, and likely the most popularly used argument in Christian forums. When have you seen anyone claim to be able to obey without Christ? Yet this statement, or some statement akin to the above, is trotted out repeatedly when the subject comes up. And here....
Therefore we must understand that righteousness...salvation, comes through faith in Christ...alone!
You confess to knowing what we are talking about all along...not righteousness by the law, but righteousness by faith. The first, yes, of course its impossible. Yet throughout this post you are constantly inferring that obedience to all God's commandments through righteousness by faith in Christ is only marginally more possible than obedience without faith.

Living a life of obedience and good works comes after that.
I would suggest that obedience and good works is instantly imparted and experienced by the newly born Christian at the same time righteousness in imputed. He is a new creature. From the moment of being born again he has all the promises of God at his fingertips, and the only obstacle to his realising them all is a lack of faith. Christ Himself proved that a human being living by faith in the power and love of his heavenly Father brings victory over sin. You say we are not like Christ. Yet the NT is clear that Christ came to be like us.
The gospel of God is "concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh." Rom. 1:3. Read the history of David, and of the kings who descended from him, and who became the ancestors of Jesus, and you will see that on the human side the Lord was handicapped by his ancestry as badly as anybody can ever be. Prostitutes, murderers, rebels, many of them licentious and cruel idolaters. Although Jesus was thus compassed with infirmity, , made in the likeness of sinful men and for sin, and elsewhere we are told made like unto His brethren, (Hebrews 2:17)he "did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth." 1 Pet. 2:22. This is to give courage to men in the lowest condition of life. It is to show that the power of the gospel of the grace of God can triumph over heredity.
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

The way I read the above, being justified by His grace is the same as being washed, regenerated, made new creatures, born again, with all the wonderful promises of God regarding complete victory in and through Christ, eminently and abundantly possible.

The power of the resurrection is according to the Spirit of holiness, for it was by the Spirit that he was raised. The power given to make men holy is the power that raised Jesus from the dead. His divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain to life and godliness.
 

Truth

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As to this part of your post "Yes, Knowledge and acceptance of the Savior is Paramount to Salvation, yet as stated, after Judging God they did return to lifting Prayer up to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the one True God of Israel."

I'm sure they did pray to God-the-Father; though if they deny His Son, and don't listen to Him, why would He want to listen to them when they deny Him by denying His Son? John 2:23 "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also." It goes top -> down, not down -> up...

I don't disagree with what you said overall though - in fact, that was the point. If they judged God guilty, in reality, they have found themselves, along with the evil one, guilty, as they and the devil are responsible, thus are the guilty parties.

And I never said I was a pro at this...but I did begin a follow up with prosecuting the prosecutor (gotta go after the big dog) ;)


I wouldn't say that God didn't hear their prayer's, During John the Baptist endeavors, people were truly Repenting, thus setting the Path straight for The Savior! BUT! and there is always a But, as you say they have rejected the Savior, which is THE PROPHIT Described in Deuteronomy Chap 18: 15,- 18, - & 19. This is a prophecy straight from the Father Mouth to Moses! in verse 15, the words at the end of the verse [ shall hear] in Hebrew is the word Shema Strongs # 8085 which is Hear and Obey, if you so decide to read those verses you will see that God is very Stern!
Throughout the OT the people were constantly being lead astray, and repenting, and so on and so on! I think that God hears the sincere prayers of true repentance no matter what, only by that can He lead them to Faith in the Savior, as we were all Disobedient at a point in our Lives.
Be Blessed
 

ScottA

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  • STUBBORN FAITH
BY NATHAN BROWN |


On a number of occasions during his writing life, Nobel Prize winner and author Elie Wiesel tried to re-tell the story of a profound experience he’d had as a young boy in the Nazi death camp at Auschwitz. He wrote a play, a novel and even a cantata to try to re-create his memory of this event, each of which remained unpublished. Finally, he wrote another play, set in another time and location, to try to capture the spirit of the event, which was published in 1979 as The Trial of God. But his re-imagining of the story remains less compelling than even a brief re-telling of the experience itself.

Amid the terrors of the camp, a scholar of Judaism befriended 15-year-old Wiesel and invited him to study together whenever they had opportunity, as “their act of religious defiance”. One evening, the scholar took Wiesel back to his barracks, where they met with two other highly accomplished Jewish legal scholars. Together, these three scholars had decided to put God on trial for the suffering and horror they were witnessing around them, for “allowing His children to be massacred”.

With Wiesel as the only audience, the three scholars argued the case against God over a number of evenings. With all the available evidence compiled, all the arguments made, the scholars arrived at a unanimous verdict: “The Lord God Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth, was found guilty of crimes against creation and humankind.”

Their solemn conclusion reached, the participants in the makeshift courtroom fell silent. The silence was only interrupted when one of them noted that it was time for evening prayers—and then together they recited the traditional evening service.


Their faith demanded a verdict against God, which gave way to silence . . . and then to worship. This story is equally awe-inspiring, troubling and challenging. And it encapsulates the central tension of faith.

At least to some degree, faith offers an explanation of “life, the universe and everything” as author Douglas Adams put it. It provides a rationale for how things are, an overview of what matters most, perhaps glimpses of the Power at work behind our physical world and everyday lives, and an expectation of how things ought to be. Faith then sketches out some principles for how to live well within these realities, as well as prompting us to look for, to hope for and even to work for something more.

But then life happens—in all its tragedy, beauty and ordinariness—and the explanations, rationales and expectations of faith seem to fall short at exactly the moment when we most need faith. Our faith is disappointed, our God is guilty or absent at best, the universe seems not as good as we had hoped and our best “living well” seems to count for little. And when our best believing feels like it has turned to dust, we most need faith.

In that “eternity of silence”—as Wiesel would later describe it—between the damning verdict on the failures and disappointments of faith and the time for evening prayers, we choose faith or not. Some would seek to diminish this silence with arguments about our incomplete knowledge and inadequate understanding—but these are the problems, not the answers. That we work with human limitations of perspective and insight is reason for both our need for faith and why our faith is so fraught.

When it seems God is guilty of tragic and criminal neglect, we need evening prayers more than ever. When our best efforts at doing good in the world seem to achieve nothing or worse, we need to choose the next good thing. Somehow, amid the silences that follow tragedy and disappointment, we need to go on. And faith offers us the best possibility of this.

This is why worship is such an important element of faith. To worship is to look outside ourselves and our present circumstances. Worship is the choice to break the silence of disappointment and tragedy with prayer—because it is time to pray, rather than waiting for our feelings to come around. Rather than re-starting the argument, restating the verdict or lapsing into permanent silence, we speak into this silence and break the power of the silence.

This “going through the motions” might sound counterintuitive when we place so much store in the value of authenticity, but acting on what we believe, beyond what we can be sure of and before we feel like it, is precisely what we mean when we talk about faith. In this sense, worship is choosing to act in faith: “We think that if we don’t feel something there can be no authenticity in doing it,” wrote The MessageBible translator, Eugene Peterson. “But the wisdom of God says something different: that we can act our way into a new way of feeling much quicker than we can feel ourselves into a new way of acting. Worship is an act that develops feelings for God, not a feeling for God that is expressed in an act of worship.”

The story of those three Jewish scholars and the young Wiesel that night in the barracks of the Auschwitz death camp is haunting. In those horrific circumstances, finding God guilty of crimes against creation and humanity seems so devastatingly just. In those horrific circumstances, an “eternity of silence” seems the only appropriate thing to offer. In those horrific circumstances—at the time for evening prayers—reciting the evening service seems the only human response, a courageous and humble act of religious defiance and stubborn faith.

So, after having read the above, how would YOU defend God when looking into a pit of burning children?
With God on the stand, I would ask Him:

"In your own words, by what medium did you create man, that would render you innocent?"

And He would answer: "Image."
 

FollowHim

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Suffering, the consequences of choosing anything apart from love and God's way.
If you allow total oneness and communion, freely entered into, you allow the opposite and it's consequences. God is guilty of allowing the other to exist, to argue, to strut and parade, as if it is life.
Death is a veil between us and Him. To be saved from the veil is not the ultimate good, rather to walk with God either side is life and eternity.

If sin and rebellion have meaning, it is to declare the Holiness of God is real life. Which do you choose?
 

Naomi25

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"in a way that we were not able to before"...if Jesus came to save us from our sins(Matt.1:22) why do Christians so often qualify that promise as you have done above? Either He came to do something and has accomplished it, or He came to do that which we by our unbelief cause the promise to be unrealised...and we then have a gospel wherein Jesus saves people not from, but in their sin.
I qualify it because Jesus took my sins...he paid for them and set me free of them. But in the process he did not make me him. I am found "in" him, but I am not Jesus Christ. I am not the perfect, sinless Son of God. I enjoy all the 'legal' status of Christ, because of the propitiation, but I am still me. And 'me' still struggles on a daily basis with sin. This sin is paid for, I needn't fear when it snaps me in the heel that it was 'one too many' for Christ's sacrifice to conquer...but I am still not Christ.
The fact that we will still have sin within our lives and struggle with it is an unavoidable biblical concept. That we are not yet perfect is also biblically, and daily, provable.
So, Christ and his victory over sin has nothing to do with my 'qualification' un-accomplishing it. My qualification, I would submit, is biblical. As is the overwhelming biblical proof that Christ did, in fact, conquer sin once for all on the cross.
So, I believe it is I who must ask you...why do you take grace and slap a qualification upon it? Why do you ignore Galatians 3? Why do you put a burden upon mankind that God has repeated shown cannot be carried? Why do you ignore that was the reason for his gift and grace?
Because every time you teach that men, through their own willpower alone, can achieve something that it took God on a cross to do, you set them up for repeated failure leading to despair or boasting. God wants neither.

And there...now we've hit that in-depth debate I didn't really want. But dang it...it's too important to brush aside.

I agree with this...there can be no argument. But now it is my turn to qualify it. I would suggest that only those who are not born again can't help it.
Well, see, I sort of disagree with this. There is, I agree, a difference between those saved and unsaved. Saved, regenerated people are able, to an extent, to resist sin. However...they still sin. 1 John 1:8 states quite clearly that even Christians still sin. In point of fact he rather baldly states that if we declare ourselves to not sin, we are liars.
Well...why is this? We know sin to be bad, to be against God, to be deadly for our souls. Why then, do we still sin? If we can, as you say, 'help it', we'd just stop, right?
It's because we are NOT yet perfect. And in a way we can't help it. We can fight it, resist it, work on putting it to death, but it is a battle. A long, protracted, all out messy, war. And yes, with the Spirit's help we may expect to make ground, to ultimately win when we hit heaven. But there is nothing in scripture that promises us we shall attain perfection while in the flesh.

This is a straw man argument, and likely the most popularly used argument in Christian forums. When have you seen anyone claim to be able to obey without Christ? Yet this statement, or some statement akin to the above, is trotted out repeatedly when the subject comes up. And here....
A strawman argument? Really? Let's see.

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. -Matthew 5:21–22

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. -Matthew 5:27–28


So, we can rather clearly see here that, as I said, Jesus taught that if anyone hated, or lusted they had broken the commandments of murder and adultery. So...biblical. Not a strawman argument.


Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?...Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith-Galatians 3:2–3,5

For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith. -Galatians 3:10–14

Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. -Galatians 3:21–26

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.-Romans 10:4

Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. -Romans 13:8


Hmmm. Nope. No strawman here either. The law was a 'guardian'...that which showed what righteousness, and conversesly, sin, was. But, as man was incapable of keeping the law, man was 'imprisioned' under the law, making anyone who continued to rely on them once Christ had come and 'set us free' of it, under a 'curse'. Am I missing anything? I think its all there.
The law is not some magical bullet. If that were the case there ought to have been at least one Jewish fellow in all of history who ought to have been up to snuff, don't you think? Isn't that the exact point Paul was making? He a "Pharisee of Pharisees!" His pedigree was perfect, his observence to the laws impecible. If anyone was going to be able to live via the the 'good old laws and statutes' and tell us it was not only possible but should be done at every turn if we want to be good little Christians. But do you know what he said instead? That every single one of our 'righteous deeds' were as filthy rags. And most well read Christians know what sort of rags he was referring to. There is not a more nasty picture he could have dredged up to paint for us what God thinks of us attempting to live off our own righteousness rather than his grace.
And do we strive to be more holy through his grace? Of course. But it's only through his grace and Spirit that this is possible. The more you attempt to look at the laws only Christ had a hope of living, and stiffening your spine because you ARE going to live them, only proves the pride within your heart. Which is a sin.
 
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Naomi25

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You confess to knowing what we are talking about all along...not righteousness by the law, but righteousness by faith. The first, yes, of course its impossible. Yet throughout this post you are constantly inferring that obedience to all God's commandments through righteousness by faith in Christ is only marginally more possible than obedience without faith.

I think, perhaps, there might be a slight misunderstanding in terms. Yes, the word 'righteousness' can be used in terms of our own actions and our living out a holy sort of life. But, righteousness is also the word used to stress the gift given to us from Christ. For example:


For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. [For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, -Romans 4:2–5

For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. - Romans 5:17


Thus when I said that "righteousness....salvation..." I was speaking interchangably. That status of being 'right' with God that is imputed to us by Christ's work on the cross.

And yes, it is hard to obey God. I look forward to becoming more mature in my walk and pray that it becomes easier, but I'm not silly enough to think that getting rid of some sins means others won't encroach. I'm not here to judge you or how you're doing in your walk...let's face it, I don't even know you, not really. But my bible tells me that Christians still sin and none of them are perfect. It wouldn't need to stress the 'life-long' race factor of our walk other wise. The constant need to look to Christ as we put these matters of the flesh to death. And as long as we are not perfect, there will always be plenty of sins wanting to drag us back. Like I said before...it's a battle. One we have the ability to now see and fight, thanks to our new heart and new vision. But battle it remains.




I would suggest that obedience and good works is instantly imparted and experienced by the newly born Christian at the same time righteousness in imputed. He is a new creature. From the moment of being born again he has all the promises of God at his fingertips, and the only obstacle to his realising them all is a lack of faith.

Brakelite. You are sounding perilously close to prosperity gospel here. If 'only' I had more faith...things would be better. Right? I could reach out and grab 'all' that God has for me? 'All' his promises...that include, apparently, health, wealth....and now perfection.
Swell. Why didn't I get that memo.
Oh...wait. I did. It came in under: Eternity.

Christ Himself proved that a human being living by faith in the power and love of his heavenly Father brings victory over sin. You say we are not like Christ. Yet the NT is clear that Christ came to be like us.
o_Oo_Oo_O
Okay. Reality check. Jesus is God. He ADDED to his God-ness, man-ness. Yes? So, he was the God/man. Fully God and fully man.
We, are just men. Not God. We will NEVER be men/gods. Ever. Even with the new heart we have. Even with the Spirit within us. Because that would be BLASPHEMY. Right? Yeah?
The deal with the cross is an exchange of legal status. We get the STATUS of Christ's perfection, while he took on and PAID for our sinful one. But...we did not GET Christ's perfect nature. We did not get his divine nature.
I mean, seriously. Even in eternity we won't have a divine nature. We won't share his omnipresence, omnipotence and omniscience. I'm assuming you know that, but I have to check, seeming as though you think just because Christ wrapped humankind around himself the reverse seems plausible.

The gospel of God is "concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh." Rom. 1:3. Read the history of David, and of the kings who descended from him, and who became the ancestors of Jesus, and you will see that on the human side the Lord was handicapped by his ancestry as badly as anybody can ever be. Prostitutes, murderers, rebels, many of them licentious and cruel idolaters. Although Jesus was thus compassed with infirmity, , made in the likeness of sinful men and for sin, and elsewhere we are told made like unto His brethren, (Hebrews 2:17)he "did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth." 1 Pet. 2:22. This is to give courage to men in the lowest condition of life. It is to show that the power of the gospel of the grace of God can triumph over heredity.
Sometimes. I'm really just staggered at what people take away from scripture. You look at Christ's earthly lineage and instead of reading Galatians and being astounded that even these flawed humans were also 'credited as righteous because they believed'...you choose to look at it and point to the fact that if Jesus came from such flawed stock and was 'perfect', then that means we can follow the laws?
Man. That just makes me tired. And sad.
Christ's lineage was important because of the promise. The promsie to send a Saviour. Why do people need a Saviour? Because they're hopelessly lost. Israel is the perfect foil for us to see that laws and commands cannot work. Galatians tells us clearly that the elect within Israel...Abraham, Rahab, David...all those we love for their adventures and their follies...they were saved because of their faith IN the promise!
Being born of a virgin was a statement. A statement of divinty and of cancelling the curse of sin and the law...one that Christ 'set us free of'. We know that 'in Adam, all die' (1 Cor 15:22). Not that God needed to dance around this..he's God. But in a very real way, by coming via Mary alone, we see Christ, a man born without the curse of sin...the perfect man and God within.
The lineage of Christ doesn't tell us we can 'break through the curse'. Jesus did that for us. That was why he came! Read the verses I posted above, they outright state it.
The hope we see in all this, is that "in Christ, in faith" everyone has hope. Not by pulling up their bootstraps, because by golly you betta now that "ba bing!" you're perfect like Christ! But by Christ meeting hurting, lost, broken people where they are and walking with them...often slowly and painfully, towards the light. Trying to sell the instant 'you ought to be god now' is hurtful to most people who haven't got their life together...which is most of us. Sickness, heartache, financial worries, mental issues, drug issues, family problems, homelessness, loneliness. The list goes on. But hey...they're just like Jesus now...its all good, they can make it that way, right?

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

The way I read the above, being justified by His grace is the same as being washed, regenerated, made new creatures, born again, with all the wonderful promises of God regarding complete victory in and through Christ, eminently and abundantly possible.

The power of the resurrection is according to the Spirit of holiness, for it was by the Spirit that he was raised. The power given to make men holy is the power that raised Jesus from the dead. His divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain to life and godliness.
The Spirit has not given us power to be perfect or become Christ. If that was so, what on earth is the bible for? After the beginning of Acts is would have just been "preach the good news of Christ to all nations". And as the gospel and Spirit went forth, making perfect little Christians as it went, who then went on to make more perfect little Christians in the Spirit....you see my point.
No...instead we have an incredible wealth of letters, from Paul, Peter, James, John....and you know what ALL of them do? Encourage the children in their walk. Reprimand where they get it wrong. Encourage where they fall down. Grieve where they hurt, share from triumphs. Educate so they can grow!
Does this sound at all like people who get saved and then, boom! Can just pretty much perfectly follow all of God's laws because, hey! all of Christ's promises are for us NOW!? If we're good enough.
Sorry. Dodgy teaching. And not in scripture.
 
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brakelite

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With God on the stand, I would ask Him:

"In your own words, by what medium did you create man, that would render you innocent?"

And He would answer: "Image."
That's a thoughtful answer, and has much merit. With regards as to how God has dealt with the problem of sin, how would you answer, considering all the pain and heartache that has ensued over the last 6000 years?
 
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brakelite

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Life



By loving



Our lives and the lives of our brothers and sisters.

Choose life therefore that you might live


Peace be with you!
How does that witness justify God in the way He has dealt with sin? Would it have been to everyone's advantage perhaps for God to squish Lucifer/Satan at the time of his rebellion in heaven in order to save mankind from a valley full of misery?
 
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brakelite

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But my bible tells me that Christians still sin and none of them are perfect. It wouldn't need to stress the 'life-long' race factor of our walk other wise. The constant need to look to Christ as we put these matters of the flesh to death. And as long as we are not perfect, there will always be plenty of sins wanting to drag us back. Like I said before...it's a battle. One we have the ability to now see and fight, thanks to our new heart and new vision. But battle it remains.

You are sounding perilously close to prosperity gospel here.

I mean, seriously. Even in eternity we won't have a divine nature. We won't share his omnipresence, omnipotence and omniscience. I'm assuming you know that, but I have to check, seeming as though you think just because Christ wrapped humankind around himself the reverse seems plausible.
Please show me one instance where Jesus used His omnipresence, omnipotence, and omniscience during any stage of His 33 years on this planet. And of course those divine attributes will never be ours, but neither do they need to be in order for us to overcome the sin nature. Christ has done that for us already...that sin nature is dead. Unfortunately it seems for some it was buried alive and it keeps coming back to haunt them. We do not have to become Christ...just Christ-like. Have Him abiding within and trusting in Him to keep us from falling, is sufficient for us to have all we need to walk in HIs footsteps. It is a walk of faith. Faith in creative power...the same power that raised Christ from the dead now works in us. Is that power not enough?

you choose to look at it and point to the fact that if Jesus came from such flawed stock and was 'perfect', then that means we can follow the laws?
No, it means we can follow Him...it is His righteousness that He gives to us...not our own. And His righteousness did indeed enable Him to keep all the commandments didn't it?
in perfection.
Israel is the perfect foil for us to see that laws and commands cannot work.
Israel was never meant to be saved by their keeping laws. I am constantly amazed that people keep bringing this up, when in the OT the Spirit of God declared the just shall live by faith.
Ro 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Ro 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Ro 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

The Spirit has not given us power to be perfect or become Christ. If that was so, what on earth is the bible for? After the beginning of Acts is would have just been "preach the good news of Christ to all nations". And as the gospel and Spirit went forth, making perfect little Christians as it went, who then went on to make more perfect little Christians in the Spirit....you see my point.
No...instead we have an incredible wealth of letters, from Paul, Peter, James, John....and you know what ALL of them do? Encourage the children in their walk. Reprimand where they get it wrong. Encourage where they fall down. Grieve where they hurt, share from triumphs. Educate so they can grow!
Does this sound at all like people who get saved and then, boom! Can just pretty much perfectly follow all of God's laws because, hey! all of Christ's promises are for us NOW!? If we're good enough.
Sorry. Dodgy teaching. And not in scripture.
I would suggest that we don't grow in order to become perfect, but we grow in perfection. Just like a rose-bud is perfect in its own right and sphere of living, so a Christian, having repented of all his known sins, is perfect. This does not mean he has become a divine person...it means he has surrendered or yielded to the Spirit working and convicting within, and as Paul says

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, (not just its condemnation) and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Naomi, not dodgy teaching at all. It is possible in this life to walk in the righteousness of Christ and live holy lives. God is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think. If we can ask for a life of righteousness, can not God fully answer such a prayer? Is not hungering and thirsting after righteousness something that can receive a positive response? Even to being filled? This is not just theoretical language Naomi, but experiential.

2 Peter 1:1 ¶ Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust....
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
 

ScottA

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That's a thoughtful answer, and has much merit. With regards as to how God has dealt with the problem of sin, how would you answer, considering all the pain and heartache that has ensued over the last 6000 years?
With thanksgiving.

If we are to enter into His courts, we shall see as He sees. We shall see before us life and death, good and evil, and choose. We shall enter into judgement and put to death all that is not of Him.
 
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brakelite

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With thanksgiving.
Thankful for what? That others have been innocently butchered for their faith and not you? That small children are ripped from the arms of their mothers and impaled on spears and burnt alive for the pleasure of kings? How does one vindicate God's proclamation that He is a just God and Merciful in the face of seeming contradictory evidence?
 
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ScottA

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Thankful for what? That others have been innocently butchered for their faith and not you? That small children are ripped from the arms of their mothers and impaled on spears and burnt alive for the pleasure of kings? How does one vindicate God's proclamation that He is a just God and Merciful in the face of seeming contradictory evidence?
No, you are not grasping the bigger picture.

We can and should be thankful that God has taken us into His confidence and is showing us the truth of all that is good and evil, and yet is doing so by "image" only, that Christ should loose any except the son of perdition.

From this worldly perspective it may seem that we are suffering...but this is only the movie version (so to speak). God alone can conjure up this presentation in such a way that we would even come to call it a "literal" "reality." But that perspective is upside down and backwards. It is rather God who is real, and the kingdom (which is not of this world) that is all that is literal...and these are the "facts" that we are to take to heart--not those created images that only exist in this finite world.

For this, we have need of the renewing of our mind.
 
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brakelite

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No, you are not grasping the bigger picture.
I'm only asking questions at this stage.
We can and should be thankful that God has taken us into His confidence and is showing us the truth of all that is good and evil, and yet is doing so by "image" only, that Christ should loose none except the son of perdition.
How would that help the mothers of those butchered children?
From this perspective it may seem that we are suffering...but this is only the movie version (so to speak). God alone can conjure up this presentation in such a way that we would even come to call it a "literal" "reality." But rather it is God who is real, and the kingdom (which is not of this world) that is literal...and these are the "facts" that we are to take to heart--not those created images that only exist in the finite world.
Right. No-one is really suffering. The pain of rape and murder is just imaginary. Just look to the kingdom and all is well. We're going to heaven so don't worry about it.
The big picture is that God is on trial...and we are in the courtroom now giving evidence as witnesses...the question that we are being constantly challenged to answer is the same one God was asked regarding Job.
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

Why do you worship God? What evidence is there that He is the just and merciful God He makes Himself out to be? Or do you just worship Him because He has promised you riches and immortality?
 

Naomi25

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Please show me one instance where Jesus used His omnipresence, omnipotence, and omniscience during any stage of His 33 years on this planet.
Okay, some examples.
Jesus knows everything:
From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. -Matthew 16:21

But he, knowing their thoughts, said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and a divided household falls. -Luke 11:17

“Come, see a man who told me all that I ever did. Can this be the Christ?” -John 4:29


Is everywhere:
For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.” -Matthew 18:20

teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” -Matthew 28:20

And the Lord said to Paul one night in a vision, “Do not be afraid, but go on speaking and do not be silent, for I am with you, and no one will attack you to harm you, for I have many in this city who are my people.” -Acts 18:9–10


He has all power:
And he said to them, “Why are you afraid, O you of little faith?” Then he rose and rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm. And the men marveled, saying, “What sort of man is this, that even winds and sea obey him?” -Matthew 8:26–27

And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. -Matthew 28:18

When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out.” The man who had died came out, his hands and feet bound with linen strips, and his face wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.” -John 11:43–44

Then he came up and touched the bier, and the bearers stood still. And he said, “Young man, I say to you, arise.” And the dead man sat up and began to speak, and Jesus gave him to his mother. -Luke 7:14–15

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” -Revelation 1:8


He depends on nothing outside of himself for life:
In him was life, and the life was the light of men. -John 1:4

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. -John 14:6

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” -John 8:58


Rules over everything:
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. -Matthew 28:18

and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood -Revelation 1:5

Never began to exist and will never cease to exist:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. -John 1:1

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” -John 8:58


And he is our Creator:
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. -Colossians 1:16–17

Now, I realise you will say "some of those examples do NOT cover his 33 years here on earth". I would argue, however, that the bible teaches us that Christ's nature is still the same now, as it was then, if perhaps changed slightly due to his resurrection body. But specifically, Jesus IS God, then and now. As well as the fact that Jesus IS completely man, then as well as now. He did not disgard his human nature or form when he was done here, he retains it still....just as when he came to earth he did not discard his divine nature...as if he could have. Indeed, the bible tells us:

waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, -Titus 2:13

Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” -John 20:28

No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. -John 1:18


And I suppose we shouldn't forget all the times Christ referred to himself as the "Son of Man", a term that directly linked him to divinity. That's one of the reasons the Jewish leaders got so worked up.
All in all, I think there are plenty of references in scripture to build together a picture of Christ. The Chalcedon Creed was not wrong when they stated that; Jesus has two natures — He is God and man, Each nature is full and complete — He is fully God and fully man and Each nature remains distinct.
In fact, I would argue that if one wanted to put forth that Jesus Christ stashed all his divinity somewhere before coming to earth, they would need to do a LOT of work to be able to make a biblical case for it.
Which I have yet to see.

And of course those divine attributes will never be ours, but neither do they need to be in order for us to overcome the sin nature. Christ has done that for us already...that sin nature is dead. Unfortunately it seems for some it was buried alive and it keeps coming back to haunt them. We do not have to become Christ...just Christ-like. Have Him abiding within and trusting in Him to keep us from falling, is sufficient for us to have all we need to walk in HIs footsteps. It is a walk of faith. Faith in creative power...the same power that raised Christ from the dead now works in us. Is that power not enough?

This sounds good, and I want to agree, but I think there still lies a fundamental problem at the foundation. You speak of Christ having triumphed over our 'sin nature', so therefore our 'sin nature' must be dead. But, I do not think that is what the bible teaches happens when we recieve new life in Christ. We do not become sin-free Christians, our 'sin natures' dead, enabling us to live forth without sin easily. No, we become people who can SEE sin, hate sin, love and treasure Christ above all, and FIGHT sin, daily. We can see this in Paul's letter to Timothy, when he says, "I have fought the good fight!" Paul leads us to understand the Christian walk is a battle, as day by day struggle against sin, towards Christ. Why? Because he is precious and worth every single moment of the fight.
But the bible clearly teaches that while we can and should fight the good fight, we won't be finished it completely until Christ's return.

Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. -1 John 3:2–3


No, it means we can follow Him...it is His righteousness that He gives to us...not our own. And His righteousness did indeed enable Him to keep all the commandments didn't it?
in perfection.
I think you miss the rather obvious nature of the exchange of legal status' that happened on the cross. Yes, Jesus took our sin natures upon himself to pay for them, crediting to ourselves his righteousness; but he didn't actually become a sinner...as in...he didn't spend time wallowing in a den of iniquity gambling, drinking and what have you. He paid the penalty for the sins we committed...he didn't have to commit the sins to do this.
Thus, while we are credited with his righteousness and we get to experience the benefits of it (heaven), we do not actually recieve Christ's perfect nature.
I mean...can you pull a single thing out of scripture where the aposltes held up a Christian as being perfect? Even Peter was rather embarrassingly chastised. Paul had a 'thorn in the flesh' to stop him being conceited, which tells us he leant that way and had to work on it. And the whole NT is full, as I said before, of instruction to believers on how to fight! How to walk! The idea that they were all able to walk in perfection once saved in simply not biblical. As is all of Christian history. The thing of it is, we're still human. Saved, thank God. Loved. Empowered to walk forward and fight, amazingly. But, as John says above...'we are not yet what we will be.'
 
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Naomi25

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Israel was never meant to be saved by their keeping laws. I am constantly amazed that people keep bringing this up, when in the OT the Spirit of God declared the just shall live by faith.
Ro 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Ro 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Ro 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
I fail, spectacularly, to see your point. I've said before that Israel, not being able to follow the laws, was, in fact, saved by faith. So, this doesn't shock me. What does shock me is that for some reason you can see that OT Israel was meant to live by faith, but now Christ has come, you expect people to toe the line with the laws. 'Cause we're now perfect.
Look...I know no one by you and God knows your heart. I can't guess what it thinks in that instant some dude cuts you off in traffic, or makes your wife cry because she said something at a cafe, or something like that. But, as I pointed out in my last post; Christ made it startlingly clear...those moments you experience anger, or jealousy or lust...even for a moment in your heart...you have broken the 10 commandments. It's not just about external compliance. It never has been. That's what the Pharisees could never understand. It's about heart attitude, and our hearts, while not being stone anymore, still live within this world. Its a constant battle; the unwilling heart against the truth and goodness of God. Yes...I agree we are capable and most certainly should fight, day in and day out against that. And we should expect to see sucess in our battles. But the idea that a saved person is immediately able to have all pure thoughts and impulses and therefore live perfectly as well. It simply is not biblical or in any way realistic.

I would suggest that we don't grow in order to become perfect, but we grow in perfection. Just like a rose-bud is perfect in its own right and sphere of living, so a Christian, having repented of all his known sins, is perfect.
I'm sorry, but that simply doesn't make a lick of sense. "Grow in perfection"? That's like the ridiculous "I'm giving it 200%" ...shouldn't they know that % is only out of 100, and therefore should only say 'I'm giving it 100%' ...in other words, 'my everything'.
When we reach 'perfection', we have, by definition, hit perfect. We need no improving, bettering. Perfect means 'as good as it possibly gets'.
IF we have anything to grow in, we cannot possibly start at perfect. That's nonsense.
And what's this "known sins" business? Are you saying that only sins you are aware off count? If you are oblivious to them, they don't count on the cosmic scale and you are therefore 'perfect'? Because, I'm not sure God would agree. And you'd have a hard time proving that from scripture.

This does not mean he has become a divine person...it means he has surrendered or yielded to the Spirit working and convicting within, and as Paul says



Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, (not just its condemnation) and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Question: how can you be 'worked in and convicted' if you are perfect? I think, to quote the princess bride: "You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means."
To be 'worked in' means you NEED work done. To be 'convicted' means you NEEDED convicting on something you did/thought/said. Whereas to be 'perfect' means you NEED nothing, you are....perfect.

All the verses you posted above...they are not speaking about us being perfect. They're talking about being set free from sin! And being set free from something doesn't make us perfect, it just makes us free to fight! To work against that which wants to enslave us. But the interesting thing is, I think, that Paul elsewhere warns that slavery can be fallen back into by attempting to achieve righteousness through works. Through forcing oneself to follow a self impossed restrictions that God, in his grace, does NOT demand. His grace and freedom allows for the fight and for the progress we make in the Spirit...but attempting to coral oneself to the laws, will never achieve that.

Naomi, not dodgy teaching at all. It is possible in this life to walk in the righteousness of Christ and live holy lives. God is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think. If we can ask for a life of righteousness, can not God fully answer such a prayer? Is not hungering and thirsting after righteousness something that can receive a positive response? Even to being filled? This is not just theoretical language Naomi, but experiential.

2 Peter 1:1 ¶ Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust....
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Not a dodgy teaching? Let's see. You seem to claim that Christ wasn't fully God while on earth. That seems a bit heretical, sorry. Then you seem to claim that if Christians are just good enough, or are proper Christians, they are perfect...which seems to mean what? That they follow the ten commandments perfectly? Except, somehow these 'perfect' Christians still have to grow and be convicted. Go figure. Not really sure where that leaves anyone.
Oh wait...I know, under the burden of perfectly following laws or not being called a real Christian. Buck up or ship out.
But I suppose it's just as well old Israel was saved by faith alone. But that currency is no good for us.
Truly baffled.
 
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