The Seven Spirits of God

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Harvest 1874

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Not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this. the term "angel" simply means "MESSENGER", which can mean angelic, or human. the seven angels or Messangers are the pastors/bishops, or the person(s) who are in charge of the feeding of God sheep.

PICJAG.

With this we are in agreement.
 
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4Jesus

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GINOLJC, to all.
First thanks for the reply, second, not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this. it was John who was instructed to write to the 7 churches, and it was John who wrote it. listen. Revelation 1:9 "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ."
Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"
Revelation 1:11 "Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea."

see, the Lord Jesus sent his angel, his hevenly messenger, to John to show, not write, but to show John the vision. but it was John who wrote. watch the instructions, Revelation 1:19 "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;" so the book of Revelation is a three fold book, past, present, and future. with me being taught of the Holy Ghost, I was Instructed to start at chapter 12 first, (the birth of the flesh that our Lord, and God Jesus came in to save us, the son) and work my way back to the seven churches and then return to chapter 13 forward. when I did that I got a complete picture of the books totality, and understanding. it may help others readers in that way.

now John, as in Revelation 1:11 was instructed to writ to the 7 churches, and each was John's writing as to what he saw. and each church had a (angel, symbolic for), "overseer"/Bishop/Pastor... ect. definition of angel here,
G32 ἄγγελος aggelos (an'-ğe-los) n.
1. a messenger.
2. (especially) an “angel” of God.
3. (of evil, Satan) a demon.
4. (by implication) a person carrying forth a message from God, i.e. a servant (a disciple, pastor, elder, prophet, etc.).
5. (also, by implication) a thing or event carrying forth a message from God, i.e. a hardship (pestilence, wind, etc.), or an animal (donkey, locusts, etc.).
[from aggello “to bring tidings” (possibly derived from G71)]
KJV: angel, messenger

so an angel of these churches are "a disciple, pastor, elder, prophet, etc", for if one read the 7 letters, one will see it is speaking to human men and women.

and if one follow the narrative of the books, John is instructed to write, or not to wright, Rev 10:4, Rev 14:13, Rev 19:9, and Rev 21:5.

hoped this helped,
PICJAG.

I wasn't contesting that John scribed those letters...

What I am contesting is that there isn't enough information to know whether Jesus intended the letters to be read by/instruct an angel (supernatural being) or a human, or both. There isn't any way to tell to be able to come to that conclusion; it is a possibility that it was the human leaders of the churches, which is just as valid as the possiblity that it was to supernatural angels as well as the churches.

Going by your definition, He could've meant those letters for the donkeys at those churches (definition #5: 5. (also, by implication) a thing or event carrying forth a message from God, i.e. a hardship (pestilence, wind, etc.), or an animal (donkey, locusts, etc.).), as well as the churches (just like in Numbers with Balaam and the talking donkey); can't say He didn't according to that definition. Yes, I agree, this is not likely, but can't say definitively that it's not what was meant, going by that definition of course.

I think I'm going to agree to disagree that those letters were intended for humans (non supernatural angel) only; the language is not clear enough to distinguish non-supernatural-angel and human, for me at least.
 

4Jesus

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I wasn't contesting that John scribed those letters...

What I am contesting is that there isn't enough information to know whether Jesus intended the letters to be read by/instruct an angel (supernatural being) or a human, or both. There isn't any way to tell to be able to come to that conclusion; it is a possibility that it was the human leaders of the churches, which is just as valid as the possiblity that it was to supernatural angels as well as the churches.

Going by your definition, He could've meant those letters for the donkeys at those churches (definition #5: 5. (also, by implication) a thing or event carrying forth a message from God, i.e. a hardship (pestilence, wind, etc.), or an animal (donkey, locusts, etc.).), as well as the churches (just like in Numbers with Balaam and the talking donkey); can't say He didn't according to that definition. Yes, I agree, this is not likely, but can't say definitively that it's not what was meant, going by that definition of course.

I think I'm going to agree to disagree that those letters were intended for humans (non supernatural angel) only; the language is not clear enough to distinguish non-supernatural-angel and human, for me at least.

I was thinking more about this, and the language in Revelation 1:20 is pretty clear that they were angels, of the supernatural type: "20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches."

When beings are stated to be "stars" here, that undoubtedly means they are angels of the supernatural type (I get that "stars" could also be cosmological bodies elsewhere in the Bible; I'm not disputing that).

Just my opinion though, I could be wrong of course. Within this context of the first few chapters of Revelation, to me, the letters were to supernatural angels (probably protecting the churches), and humans within the churches (both leaders and followers).
 

Heart2Soul

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It's uncanny that this topic was brought up because I too am studying Revelations and wondered about the seven spirits of God yesterday.
I have found over the past years that when the Holy Spirit is revealing a new revelation of the Word to me that it isn't only myself who He is receiving it.....He is showing to the whole body of Christ corporately for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.
To God be the Glory!
 
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101G

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I was thinking more about this, and the language in Revelation 1:20 is pretty clear that they were angels, of the supernatural type: "20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches."
GINOLJC, TO ALL.
why would you think the angels here in this verse is different from the ones addressed in chapter 2 & 3?
When beings are stated to be "stars" here, that undoubtedly means they are angels of the supernatural type (I get that "stars" could also be cosmological bodies elsewhere in the Bible; I'm not disputing that).
we must disagree with this, and here's why, Jude 1:13 "Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever." here our brother Jude describe these unholy men, False teachers that crept in unawares as "wandering stars". these was human men and women.
Just as the 1/3 of the stars of heaven that was drawn of the dragon tail was humans, not angelic. one must read the book of Revelation very carefully, meaning, read it with the Holy Ghost. one must meditate on the words of the the Lord JESUS.
Just my opinion though, I could be wrong of course. Within this context of the first few chapters of Revelation, to me, the letters were to supernatural angels (probably protecting the churches), and humans within the churches (both leaders and followers).
I stand with you here, none of us are God, for we don't know it all. oponion are fine, speak, for one word can change the course of history. and look, I'm not about finding out who's right or wrong, that's childish, but seeking God is the objective. and understand this, I'm aiming at the bulls eye, and yes, sometimes I miss it, but know this, at least I'm hitting the target. so with me, I can only speak for myself, don't worry if you're right or wrong, speak. I have seen where someone was right about something, and everyone else said no they was wrong, but later, maybe a week or a month, or even a year later something elese came up and found out they was right and everyone else was wrong. so speak an oponion, because we all have oponions. even almight God said this, Isaiah 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." if God can do it, why not us? that's why you will see me saying "not saying that you're right or wrong, condiser this". so opinions are great it just might lead to the truth, if not there, is no loss, it was an opinion. only God knows, and he will reveal the truth to us. so you don't have to worry about me with your opinions, ok.
PICJAG.
 
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farouk

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Bless you, @amadeus, such encouraging words......and yes, yes, yes.....I do covet the gifts, but more than that I covet a deeper relationship with Him. I feel I am so far from where I want to be....but I do seek Him continually. (wish my flesh would get out of the way...HA!....2 steps forward and 1 step back...at least I am still moving forward!:D)
We all need to 'grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ' (2 Peter 3.18). :)
 

4Jesus

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GINOLJC, TO ALL.
why would you think the angels here in this verse is different from the ones addressed in chapter 2 & 3?

we must disagree with this, and here's why, Jude 1:13 "Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever." here our brother Jude describe these unholy men, False teachers that crept in unawares as "wandering stars". these was human men and women.

To me, I read Jude as comparing the humans to the evil angels, by following their ways. So in order to compare, one needs two things (obviously), in this case, humans and the evil angels they follow.

The book of Jude starts off discussing humans and the error-filled ways, then briefly discusses angels of the supernatural type in Jude 1:6 "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

Then, goes back to discussing the humans who have followed those evil angels, to be preserved in darkness in Jude 1:8 "8Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities."

Then, more comparison to the humans who have erred and followed the evil angels (such as Cain who murdered his brother out of jealousy - the evil one is a murdered, thus Cain followed the evil one for God rejecting him). Jude 1:10-11 "10But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core."

Then, comparison of those humans to other beings/objects/ideas in Jude 1:12-13 "12These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever."

Verse 13 continues the comparison of the humans to the beings/objects/ideas in verse 12. The humans aren't clouds, literally, they are like those clouds without water, carried about of winds. Likewise, they are like wandering stars, whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever, which points back to Jude 1:6. The wandering stars, which is reserved the black of darkness, are angels, evil angels to be specific, of the supernatural type, as described in Jude 1:6.

So here in Jude the humans that have followed the evil angels are compared to the evil angels, the wandering stars reserved for darkness, because they are now like them/evil angels.

As such, the verse in Revelation 1:20, is also discussing stars, which within that verse also calls them angels (and no reason to think that "stars" are humans, within Jude or Revelation)

Just as the 1/3 of the stars of heaven that was drawn of the dragon tail was humans, not angelic. one must read the book of Revelation very carefully, meaning, read it with the Holy Ghost. one must meditate on the words of the the Lord JESUS.

I disagree completely. I think the 1/3 of stars are angelic, and not human. There's no verse to counter that they are not angelic. Additionally, if we're discussing human numbers who follow the evil one, it's much more than 1/3, it's probably more than 2/3, or around 3/4: roughly 1.5-2 billion Muslims, 1.3 Hindu, 1.2 Chinese atheists, 500 million Buddhists, 500 millionish atheists (non Chinese commies); that's about, and just generally speaking, 5 billion of the 8 billion currently, and that's not including agnostics and other smaller religions. And that's only people currently alive. To include the past, their numbers swell even more, including Roman gods followers, Greek gods followers, Egyptian gods followers, and Babylonian gods followers.

I stand with you here, none of us are God, for we don't know it all. oponion are fine, speak, for one word can change the course of history. and look, I'm not about finding out who's right or wrong, that's childish, but seeking God is the objective. and understand this, I'm aiming at the bulls eye, and yes, sometimes I miss it, but know this, at least I'm hitting the target. so with me, I can only speak for myself, don't worry if you're right or wrong, speak. I have seen where someone was right about something, and everyone else said no they was wrong, but later, maybe a week or a month, or even a year later something elese came up and found out they was right and everyone else was wrong. so speak an oponion, because we all have oponions. even almight God said this, Isaiah 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." if God can do it, why not us? that's why you will see me saying "not saying that you're right or wrong, condiser this". so opinions are great it just might lead to the truth, if not there, is no loss, it was an opinion. only God knows, and he will reveal the truth to us. so you don't have to worry about me with your opinions, ok.
PICJAG.

We're in agreement. It's not about which one of us is right or wrong, ego means nothing to me, and I can see that it means nothing to you too. What matters, is the truth. Whichever one of us is "right", isn't really "us" anyway - it's God-the-Father and God-the-Son who is right, and by which all of this information comes from. God-the-Father and God-the-Son get the credit, not you nor I.

Thankfully we agree in this, and our conversation has reflected this belief, and strengthens our following of God-the-Father and God-the-Son and God-the-Holy Spirit.

I'm very thankful you and I are followers of God-the-Father and God-the-Son - wish I knew more people like you offline ;)
 

101G

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GINOLJC, first thanks for the reply. second,
Then, more comparison to the humans who have erred and followed the evil angels (such as Cain who murdered his brother out of jealousy - the evil one is a murdered, thus Cain followed the evil one for God rejecting him).
who and when did any angel murder anyone?. physically speaking.
I disagree completely. I think the 1/3 of stars are angelic, and not human. There's no verse to counter that they are not angelic.
not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this. the stars in revelation 12 are humans, and the verses tghat proves this are found in the book of Matthews chapter 2 which clearly display all the actors.

Symbolic Meaning to understand chapter 12
the Child = the Messiah.
Woman = represent a Church, (the remnant of Israel, the church in the wilderness).
Dragon = a person, be it representative of a political, or religious power, (here king Herod).
Red in this chapter = blood
Stars = messenger, (human, not angelic).
Sun = the gospel, or word of God.
Moon = Mosaic Law.

Rev chapter 12 Verse 4. "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born”.
The main key here is the word, “tail”, and “of “, as in, “of” heaven, and not in heaven, about the stars. stars here is symbolic, stars do not necessary , or automatically means angels. in this verse it means men. those on earth that have heavenly information, or a message, that’s the symbolization used here of, of, of, heavenly stars. when reading about the birth of Jesus the Christ, revelation chapter 12 correspond to it to a tee. Matthews chapter 2 tells us how Herod the king, (the red dragon), tried to kill the baby Jesus. it say that the dragon drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to earth, this to me is not a persuasion to follow the dragon, but an attempt by the dragon to use someone to gain heavenly knowledge. it said that his tail “DREW” the THIRD part of the stars of heaven. drew here, is another word to "gather" together. so who did king Herod drew, or gathered together unto himself? it's the stars or messengers that is on earth, with the heavenly knowledge of where the babe is to be born at. (I'll show this by scripture). Herod the king called/drew, or gathered together unto him his aids, to find out about the new born King, that the wise men came to worship. he wanted to know where the child was born at, so that he may kill the babe, (he stood ready to kill). as said, the word drew, past tense, mean to "gather"/draw together, king Herod inquired of the men of God, the (Heavenly messengers, or men of God), as to where the babe was born at. lets pick up the account in the scriptures. Matt 2:4 "And when he had gathered all the chief priests,(1 third), and scribes, (2 third), of the people together, (there it is, of the people, not angels in heaven). he demanded of them where Christ should be born". these men was of God, who should know the things of God, for they had the written word of the prophets, and yes, they did. scripture, Matt 2:5 "And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet, 6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel". here it is confirm that the babe came out of Judah. Now lets get the third part, or the final third of stars, the wise men. Matthews 2:7 “ Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared”. There is the third part, of the stars, the wise men. the scriptures said that the dragon, drew a third part, “of”, the stars, “of”, heaven. There you have it, all of the third part of the STARS. lets recap Matthews 2:4. 1/3 chief priests, 2/3 the scribes, and our 3/3 the wise men. there you have it.
understand, just because a vision is shown in heaven do not nesseary mean it took place in heaven. so Matthews chapter 2 is the vision John saw which was the things that was "PAST". if one keep one hand on Revelation chapter 12, and the other hand on Matthews chapter 2, it the same event.

hoped this help,
PICJAG.
 
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Waiting on him

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GINOLJC, first thanks for the reply. second,
who and when did any angel murder anyone?. physically speaking.

not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this. the stars in revelation 12 are humans, and the verses tghat proves this are found in the book of Matthews chapter 2 which clearly display all the actors.

Symbolic Meaning to understand chapter 12
the Child = the Messiah.
Woman = represent a Church, (the remnant of Israel, the church in the wilderness).
Dragon = a person, be it representative of a political, or religious power, (here king Herod).
Red in this chapter = blood
Stars = messenger, (human, not angelic).
Sun = the gospel, or word of God.
Moon = Mosaic Law.

Rev chapter 12 Verse 4. "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born”.
The main key here is the word, “tail”, and “of “, as in, “of” heaven, and not in heaven, about the stars. stars here is symbolic, stars do not necessary , or automatically means angels. in this verse it means men. those on earth that have heavenly information, or a message, that’s the symbolization used here of, of, of, heavenly stars. when reading about the birth of Jesus the Christ, revelation chapter 12 correspond to it to a tee. Matthews chapter 2 tells us how Herod the king, (the red dragon), tried to kill the baby Jesus. it say that the dragon drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to earth, this to me is not a persuasion to follow the dragon, but an attempt by the dragon to use someone to gain heavenly knowledge. it said that his tail “DREW” the THIRD part of the stars of heaven. drew here, is another word to "gather" together. so who did king Herod drew, or gathered together unto himself? it's the stars or messengers that is on earth, with the heavenly knowledge of where the babe is to be born at. (I'll show this by scripture). Herod the king called/drew, or gathered together unto him his aids, to find out about the new born King, that the wise men came to worship. he wanted to know where the child was born at, so that he may kill the babe, (he stood ready to kill). as said, the word drew, past tense, mean to "gather"/draw together, king Herod inquired of the men of God, the (Heavenly messengers, or men of God), as to where the babe was born at. lets pick up the account in the scriptures. Matt 2:4 "And when he had gathered all the chief priests,(1 third), and scribes, (2 third), of the people together, (there it is, of the people, not angels in heaven). he demanded of them where Christ should be born". these men was of God, who should know the things of God, for they had the written word of the prophets, and yes, they did. scripture, Matt 2:5 "And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet, 6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel". here it is confirm that the babe came out of Judah. Now lets get the third part, or the final third of stars, the wise men. Matthews 2:7 “ Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared”. There is the third part, of the stars, the wise men. the scriptures said that the dragon, drew a third part, “of”, the stars, “of”, heaven. There you have it, all of the third part of the STARS. lets recap Matthews 2:4. 1/3 chief priests, 2/3 the scribes, and our 3/3 the wise men. there you have it.
understand, just because a vision is shown in heaven do not nesseary mean it took place in heaven. so Matthews chapter 2 is the vision John saw which was the things that was "PAST". if one keep one hand on Revelation chapter 12, and the other hand on Matthews chapter 2, it the same event.

hoped this help,
PICJAG.
 
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Waiting on him

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GINOLJC, first thanks for the reply. second,
who and when did any angel murder anyone?. physically speaking.

not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this. the stars in revelation 12 are humans, and the verses tghat proves this are found in the book of Matthews chapter 2 which clearly display all the actors.

Symbolic Meaning to understand chapter 12
the Child = the Messiah.
Woman = represent a Church, (the remnant of Israel, the church in the wilderness).
Dragon = a person, be it representative of a political, or religious power, (here king Herod).
Red in this chapter = blood
Stars = messenger, (human, not angelic).
Sun = the gospel, or word of God.
Moon = Mosaic Law.

Rev chapter 12 Verse 4. "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born”.
The main key here is the word, “tail”, and “of “, as in, “of” heaven, and not in heaven, about the stars. stars here is symbolic, stars do not necessary , or automatically means angels. in this verse it means men. those on earth that have heavenly information, or a message, that’s the symbolization used here of, of, of, heavenly stars. when reading about the birth of Jesus the Christ, revelation chapter 12 correspond to it to a tee. Matthews chapter 2 tells us how Herod the king, (the red dragon), tried to kill the baby Jesus. it say that the dragon drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to earth, this to me is not a persuasion to follow the dragon, but an attempt by the dragon to use someone to gain heavenly knowledge. it said that his tail “DREW” the THIRD part of the stars of heaven. drew here, is another word to "gather" together. so who did king Herod drew, or gathered together unto himself? it's the stars or messengers that is on earth, with the heavenly knowledge of where the babe is to be born at. (I'll show this by scripture). Herod the king called/drew, or gathered together unto him his aids, to find out about the new born King, that the wise men came to worship. he wanted to know where the child was born at, so that he may kill the babe, (he stood ready to kill). as said, the word drew, past tense, mean to "gather"/draw together, king Herod inquired of the men of God, the (Heavenly messengers, or men of God), as to where the babe was born at. lets pick up the account in the scriptures. Matt 2:4 "And when he had gathered all the chief priests,(1 third), and scribes, (2 third), of the people together, (there it is, of the people, not angels in heaven). he demanded of them where Christ should be born". these men was of God, who should know the things of God, for they had the written word of the prophets, and yes, they did. scripture, Matt 2:5 "And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet, 6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel". here it is confirm that the babe came out of Judah. Now lets get the third part, or the final third of stars, the wise men. Matthews 2:7 “ Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared”. There is the third part, of the stars, the wise men. the scriptures said that the dragon, drew a third part, “of”, the stars, “of”, heaven. There you have it, all of the third part of the STARS. lets recap Matthews 2:4. 1/3 chief priests, 2/3 the scribes, and our 3/3 the wise men. there you have it.
understand, just because a vision is shown in heaven do not nesseary mean it took place in heaven. so Matthews chapter 2 is the vision John saw which was the things that was "PAST". if one keep one hand on Revelation chapter 12, and the other hand on Matthews chapter 2, it the same event.

hoped this help,
PICJAG.
just because a vision is shown in heaven do not nesseary mean it took place in heaven.

That all depends on where we believe heaven is

Psalm 19:1-5 KJV
[1] The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. [2] Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. [3] There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. [4] Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, [5] Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.

We would make the statement that all of this took place in the heart of John
 
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Enoch111

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That all depends on where we believe heaven is
The existence of Heaven is definitely NOT subjective. The Bible makes it crystal clear that God's Heaven (the third heaven) is ABOVE and BEYOND the earth, its atmosphere, and its stratosphere. And as the astronauts realized, it is above and beyond outer space.

We also know that the heavenly city New Jerusalem occupies the major portion of Heaven. God, Christ, all the holy angels, all the OT saints, all the NT saints who have passed on, as well as the heavenly Sanctuary, are all within the New Jerusalem (Heb 12:22-24). We also know that Paradise is within the New Jerusalem, which is a cubic city (just as the Holy of Holies was a cube).

upload_2019-10-3_21-39-1.png
 

Waiting on him

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The existence of Heaven is definitely NOT subjective. The Bible makes it crystal clear that God's Heaven (the third heaven) is ABOVE and BEYOND the earth, its atmosphere, and its stratosphere. And as the astronauts realized, it is above and beyond outer space.

We also know that the heavenly city New Jerusalem occupies the major portion of Heaven. God, Christ, all the holy angels, all the OT saints, all the NT saints who have passed on, as well as the heavenly Sanctuary, are all within the New Jerusalem (Heb 12:22-24). We also know that Paradise is within the New Jerusalem, which is a cubic city (just as the Holy of Holies was a cube).

View attachment 7408
Wow you have pictures.
 

101G

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just because a vision is shown in heaven do not nesseary mean it took place in heaven.

That all depends on where we believe heaven is

Psalm 19:1-5 KJV
[1] The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. [2] Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. [3] There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. [4] Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, [5] Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.

We would make the statement that all of this took place in the heart of John
GINOLJC, to all. First thanks for the reply. second, the vision took place in heaven, supportive scripture, Revelation 4:1 "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

understand, and I take your point into consideration. but John was in the Spirit while on earth in verse 10, Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,". now knowing that, as posted in Rev chapter 4 John was called to come up heather.
as for heaven, we know of three heavens. our earth atmosphere or sky, and the space above our sky, and there is a place beyond that. like you said, you can believe for yourself where heaven is at, for me as posted is my view where heaven is at everywhere.
PICJAG.
 
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Waiting on him

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GINOLJC, to all. First thanks for the reply. second, the vision took place in heaven, supportive scripture, Revelation 4:1 "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

understand, and I take your point into consideration. but John was in the Spirit while on earth in verse 10, Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,". now knowing that, as posted in Rev chapter 4 John was called to come up heather.
as for heaven, we know of three heavens. our earth atmosphere or sky, and the space above our sky, and there is a place beyond that. like you said, you can believe for yourself where heaven is at, for me as posted is my view where heaven is at everywhere.
PICJAG.
Where ever that is I believe God dwells there.
 

101G

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Where ever that is I believe God dwells there.
don't forget, since sin is defeted, he can dwell in us and everywhere. Psalms 139:7 "Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?"
Psalms 139:8 "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there."
PICJAG.
 

VictoryinJesus

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GINOLJC, to all. First thanks for the reply. second, the vision took place in heaven, supportive scripture, Revelation 4:1 "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

understand, and I take your point into consideration. but John was in the Spirit while on earth in verse 10, Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,". now knowing that, as posted in Rev chapter 4 John was called to come up heather.
as for heaven, we know of three heavens. our earth atmosphere or sky, and the space above our sky, and there is a place beyond that. like you said, you can believe for yourself where heaven is at, for me as posted is my view where heaven is at everywhere.
PICJAG.

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. [2] I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. [3] And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth[4] How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Considering John was instructed to go back and write...what is “I was in the Spirit” in John still had to be in a body to go back and write these things...
 
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Waiting on him

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don't forget, since sin is defeted, he can dwell in us and everywhere. Psalms 139:7 "Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?"
Psalms 139:8 "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there."
PICJAG.
Agreed, where or whatever the heavens are He’s placed His tabernacle within them, and they declare His Glory.
 
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