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justbyfaith

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Nope, not vanity - it's a choice because I do not share your views and therefore feel I can make my own decisions about whether I grow my hair longer or keep it short , Same with regards to wearing trousers - ( sorry pants, I forgot your in the USA)
I wish there was a dislike botton on this forum , or perhaps a thumbs down -
Rita
The scripture is clear that in keeping your hair short you are dishonouring your husband...or, if you are not married, the God-established order of the man over the woman:

1Co 11:3, But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1Co 11:4, Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
1Co 11:5, But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

The butch look and and attitude is common among lesbians. If it were a shame to even have such a look or attitude, I imagine that people would be discouraged from entering into that lifestyle. But because that attitude and look is exalted, there are those who are desensitized to the whole of what that is all about. Likewise with men who have long hair and want to be perceived as women. The distinction between the genders is lost and therefore, when people want to cross gender lines and commit homosexuality, there is less of a restraining factor than if we lived by the established rules of propriety that determine the difference between men and women.

The scripture in question deals with subjection to the authority of who is over you as a head...and therefore if women do not recognize the authority of the men in their lives, this shows that there is a deeper problem...that people in society do not recognize the authority of Christ over them who is the greater head over all of humanity (and especially the church).
 

Pearl

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Nope, not vanity - it's a choice because I do not share your views and therefore feel I can make my own decisions about whether I grow my hair longer or keep it short , Same with regards to wearing trousers - ( sorry pants, I forgot your in the USA)
I wish there was a dislike botton on this forum , or perhaps a thumbs down -
Rita
Like me Rita. I like comfort so I wear jeans or trousers. I don't like to have to spend ages doing my hair so I keep it short and manageable. So definitely not vanity. And I would definitely use a thumbs down on some posts.
 
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Nancy

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I am going to leave this post here, but add an apology- I realised that I was posting out of anger, and that was wrong. I am sorry.
I don't feel a conviction for what I have posted as such, just the attitude that lay behind it.
I have watched, and been affected by the ' pharassaic ' views and assumptions of others over the years - it binds people, including those with the attitudes.
In all honesty Justbyfaith you greatly affected me the other day when you accused me of being an alcoholic and doubted me, basically assuming me to be lying. There is nothing worse than being accused of something you are not guilty of by someone who doesn't know you that well, but imust leave that between you and the Lord , as he knows the truth about me.
However I should not have carried that frustration or anger over to this thread - for that I apologise.
I could have just deleted my post, but that would have been the easier option !
Rita

There is a thing called "righteous anger" ;) It's bad enough to be judged by the world, much less a brother or sister in Christ, who has no clue as to what your daily life is.
xo
 

historyb

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historyb,

That's not the way it is in Australia. To say I am Anglican will mean one of two general types: (1) liberal, higher church Anglicans with ministers trained in liberal colleges - and church attendance declining, and (2) evangelical Anglicans trained in Moore College, Sydney. The Sydney diocese is evangelical. There are evangelical Anglicans trained in Ridley College, Melbourne but the Melbourne diocese is a mixture of liberal and evangelical churches. The liberal training College in Melbourne is Trinity College. Interestingly, both Ridley and Trinity Colleges are affiliated with the University of Melbourne.

A number of liberal Anglican parishes in my state of Qld cannot find enough ministers so they accept evangelicals on a temporary or locum basis.

Among the evangelical Anglicans there is a small number of charismatic Anglican congregations.

Oz

Oh I think, correct me if I am wrong, you may think that we are Anglican. My denomination i=started in 1997 and is mostly international in scope except it does not appear we are in Australia yet. From our webpage "Uniquely, the ICCEC is not a schism or splinter group from another denomination. The ICCEC is not affiliated with the Episcopal Church USA, and is not a break-off of that church. " About Us - Charismatic Sacramental & Liturgical Church hopefully this helps and I hope I was not rude
 

Giuliano

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Oh I think, correct me if I am wrong, you may think that we are Anglican. My denomination i=started in 1997 and is mostly international in scope except it does not appear we are in Australia yet. From our webpage "Uniquely, the ICCEC is not a schism or splinter group from another denomination. The ICCEC is not affiliated with the Episcopal Church USA, and is not a break-off of that church. " About Us - Charismatic Sacramental & Liturgical Church hopefully this helps and I hope I was not rude
I would call Carlos Duarte Costa a schismatic. He was excommunicated but went on to form his own church. Doesn't the Charistmatic Episcopal Church claim its apostolic succession through him?

Carlos Duarte Costa - Wikipedia
 

historyb

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I have no idea though I see nothing wrong with him. I myself am on my way to becoming a deacon and then a Priest. We do not take after him at all
 
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justbyfaith

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no you only said she wore her hair long paul calls for a woman to cover her head with a vaile . if you say yes t one you must say yes to the other

Paul teaches that long hair is given to a woman for a covering; therefore a vail is not necessary: because long hair is given in place of the vail.

Now if a woman has short hair, then she would need a vail while praying or prophesying.

Now the culture of our day is not in accordance with this. But I would ask you: what if it is the culture of heaven? Would you rebel against it if it were required as being the norm in heaven? Would you still want to be in heaven if it were the case?

If you wouldn't rebel against it then, why do you rebel against it now?
 
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Butterfly

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My views on the passage in Corinthians have not changed, culturally there were reasons why Paul was addressing the Corinthian church in this way .
If you choose not to understand those reasons , then you take the whole passage out of context.
I am sick of your condemnations , which you wrap up as ' discipline ' and convey a self righteous attitude to many on this forum.
You presume that people are ignorant , or not a true Christian, without knowing how long they have equally been reading and studying Gods word. Your base line is ' if it's a different response to mine, then they are wrong and I am right '
The pharisees thought they knew everything, that they were the ' ones in the know ' turned out they were blind to so much........that should be a lesson to us all, and yes I do include myself in that. If my conviction regarding that passage ever changes, I will let you know - but for now, my hair will remain short.
Rita
 
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Butterfly

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The scripture is clear that in keeping your hair short you are dishonouring your husband...or, if you are not married, the God-established order of the man over the woman:

1Co 11:3, But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1Co 11:4, Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
1Co 11:5, But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

The butch look and and attitude is common among lesbians. If it were a shame to even have such a look or attitude, I imagine that people would be discouraged from entering into that lifestyle. But because that attitude and look is exalted, there are those who are desensitized to the whole of what that is all about. Likewise ]
Do you actually know what the cultural setting was for the Corinthian church ?
Also your arguement about lesbians, with regards to this issue of hair length is questionable - I know many lesbians who have long hair. So if no women ever had short hair there would be less lesbians - is that what you are saying ?
So the fact the women wear trousers, do you think that has promoted homosexuality!
Interesting - not sure whether I am being sarcastic or not.
Rita
 

Giuliano

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Do you actually know what the cultural setting was for the Corinthian church ?
Also your arguement about lesbians, with regards to this issue of hair length is questionable - I know many lesbians who have long hair. So if no women ever had short hair there would be less lesbians - is that what you are saying ?
So the fact the women wear trousers, do you think that has promoted homosexuality!
Interesting - not sure whether I am being sarcastic or not.
Rita
Indeed I've known some lesbians with long hair and "very feminine" acting. I've also met some very "macho" gay men. Indeed, I'd be willing to bet that some sports have more gay men than other professions since young boys leaning that way may want to prove they're "real men" by being sports heroes.

Paul came out of a Jewish culture. Orthodox Jews are still pretty strict about their women's hair. Some women allow only their husbands and close relatives see their hair. If you think you're seeing hair, odds are it's a wig.

I can see that young girls in a culture like that shouldn't be trying to get men sexually interested in them by flaunting their hair and braiding it with ribbons. People like that are in spiritual danger -- men or women.

In western culture today, men aren't apt to get so excited by seeing women's hair. Really. I don't see a reason to apply the Jewish cultural standard of Paul's day to ours.

I think some Muslim women can be immodest even with their head scarves. I've run into two in my town. One was a woman with her hair piled up high under her scarf. She was really calling attention to that hair although it was hidden. It seemed provocative to me since it made me curious and want to see it. The other was a young girl whose physical appearance was more modest, but did she ever have a wandering eye! She kept looking at me to see if I was looking at her. There was no mistaking why she was trying to catch my eye. That head scarf did not one little bit of good. I've read the Quran and wondered if she had read this:

And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments.And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss. (Surah An-Nur, 31)
 
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Butterfly

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That's interest Giuliano
I also know that in Paul's time, and in Corinth there was a temple to another God and prostitutes would uncover there heads to go into the temple - this was deemed disrespectful ( understandably ) to their husbands ect. As a contrast Paul wanted this new church to be different and have different standards- not to align with the prostitutes - hence why he wrote what he did. It had meaning and purpose within the culture of the time.
I have always understood that it's the cultural message and attitudes that were meant to be taken on board by future generations - not always the literal and legalistic aspect.
Short hair is not deemed to be linked to prostitutes within out culture - now if I was to stand on a street corner, wearing provocative clothes, well I would ne totally in the wrong and dishonouring to the Lord.
Rita
 
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Giuliano

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That's interest Giuliano
I also know that in Paul's time, and in Corinth there was a temple to another God and prostitutes would uncover there heads to go into the temple - this was deemed disrespectful ( understandably ) to their husbands ect. As a contrast Paul wanted this new church to be different and have different standards- not to align with the prostitutes - hence why he wrote what he did. It had meaning and purpose within the culture of the time.
I have always understood that it's the cultural message and attitudes that were meant to be taken on board by future generations - not always the literal and legalistic aspect.
Short hair is not deemed to be linked to prostitutes within out culture - now if I was to stand on a street corner, wearing provocative clothes, well I would ne totally in the wrong and dishonouring to the Lord.
Rita
I did not know that about Corinth, so thanks for that piece of information. It gives the text in the Bible additional meaning.

Jews are constantly revising practices as culture change; and today things are changing. They're still debating it among themselves.

Hair Coverings for Married Women | My Jewish Learning
 
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Butterfly

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Interesting read - the book ' hide and seek ' sounds interesting. It seems that even within the Jewish culture there is a wide and varied view, as there is within the Christisn realm about things.
I doubt that will change x
 
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Giuliano

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Interesting read - the book ' hide and seek ' sounds interesting. It seems that even within the Jewish culture there is a wide and varied view, as there is within the Christisn realm about things.
I doubt that will change x
Jews have an advantage though -- they tolerate differing opinions more.
 
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Giuliano

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Yes , but certain christian would view tolerance as being liberal and wrong
People ask sometimes when did Christianity start to go wrong? I think Christianity was fine when Christians were persecuted. They didn't see persecution as a good thing then. They saw tolerance as good. Things started to go wrong when Christians started to get power. In jockeying for power, they learned they could accuse others of being heretics so they could increase their own power. When Christians got political power, they also forgot about not returning evil for evil -- and it's true the Jews did some horrible things to Christians -- but after they got power, Christians became just as bad, eager to take revenge. I think we've been struggling to rid ourselves of this spirit of intolerance ever since.

I figure I am wrong about some things. May God forgive me if they're important things. The only way I know to cover myself is to forgive others if I think they're wrong. If I'm willing to forgive others when I think I'm right and they're wrong, then God maybe will forgive me where I'm wrong.
 
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Butterfly

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Much of scripture dictates that in time of persecution we should ask God for 'HIS ' wisdom , as opposed to just doing what we think is right.
Maybe it's more about mans wisdom verses Gods.
Yes History reveals some pretty awful things - our history over here in the UK is awful, especially between the Catholics and protestants - the dark ages were awful.
In world war 2 people had to band together, their differences were put to one side- they had a common enemy. Maybe its wise to remember that we equally have a common enemy - we are fighting in the same war, but often as not we seem to be acting like people on different sides !
Think this has digested a bit !! Lol
Rita
 

Giuliano

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Much of scripture dictates that in time of persecution we should ask God for 'HIS ' wisdom , as opposed to just doing what we think is right.
Maybe it's more about mans wisdom verses Gods.
Yes History reveals some pretty awful things - our history over here in the UK is awful, especially between the Catholics and protestants - the dark ages were awful.
In world war 2 people had to band together, their differences were put to one side- they had a common enemy. Maybe its wise to remember that we equally have a common enemy - we are fighting in the same war, but often as not we seem to be acting like people on different sides !
Think this has digested a bit !! Lol
Rita
A lot of history is awful. I look at leaders as two kinds: Those who gather together and those who scatter. I want to follow the kind that wants to unify people . That doesn't mean making everyone the same -- it means tolerating differences.
 
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