GINOLJC, first thanks for the reply.
Thanks also to you.
second,
who and when did any angel murder anyone?. physically speaking.
In John 8:44 "Ye are of
your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.".
Who specifically did he murder? I don't have the information to state who specifically, but I believe Jesus when he says that the devil was a murderer from the beginning.
To guess theoretically, any war on earth is due to the devil, so all those deaths that occurred were because of him.
not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this. the stars in revelation 12 are humans, and the verses tghat proves this are found in the book of Matthews chapter 2 which clearly display all the actors.
I believe the "stars" in Revelation 12:4 "4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven", are the same stars found later in Revelation 12, in verse 7 "7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the
dragon fought and his angels,"
The stars in Revelation 12:4 are the same stars/angels found in verse 12:7 which battle Michael and his angels (Michael is an angel of the supernatural type) - no human can match an angel in strength and might.
As for Matthew chapter 2, sometimes, a star is an angel, sometimes a star is a cosmological body, such as in the sky at night (the constellations). We know this because in scripture God also refers to them when talking of cosmological bodies, in Genesis 37:9 "And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold,
the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me." and in Luke 21:25 "And there shall be
signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;".
Those two verses describe stars as cosmological bodies, also with the sun and the moon.
In Matthew chapter 2, the star here is a cosmological body - it was a guide for the three humans to find the child, the Messiah (since there were no directions or maps to find him, a landmark in the sky was needed to find Him). In Matthew 2:2 "2Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have
seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.", there are two things discussed here, his = Him the Messiah, and his "star", which means they are two different objects being discussed, one a child the Messiah, and a cosmological body.
This is further described in Matthew 2:9 "9When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo,
the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was." The cosmological body, a star, stood over where the young child was. The star and the young child are two separate concepts here, not one in the same. It would read "the star that was the child" or something if the two concepts of a cosmological body and a child were one and the same.
Symbolic Meaning to understand chapter 12
the Child = the Messiah.
Woman = represent a Church, (the remnant of Israel, the church in the wilderness).
Dragon = a person, be it representative of a political, or religious power, (here king Herod).
Red in this chapter = blood
Stars = messenger, (human, not angelic).
Sun = the gospel, or word of God.
Moon = Mosaic Law.
I disagree with some of these findings. The Dragon, is the Devil, and not Herod. This is described later in Revelation 13:16 "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come
out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet." This is not speaking about Herod here. Also, in Revelation 12:9 "9And the
great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." Herod is not the Devil/Satan, the dragon. Also, we find the link between the dragon being the Devil/Satan, in Revelation, 20:2 "And he laid hold on
the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,". Again, Herod is not the Devil and Satan.
Obviously I disagree that the Stars you mentioned are not humans, but angels of the supernaturaly type.
Rev chapter 12 Verse 4. "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born”.
The main key here is the word, “tail”, and “of “, as in, “of” heaven, and not in heaven, about the stars. stars here is symbolic, stars do not necessary , or automatically means angels. in this verse it means men.
I disagree, because in three more verses we clearly see there is an angelic war of the supernatural type, in Revelation 12, in verse 7 "A
nd there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,"
These are not men that are fighting with Michael the angel nor the Devil/Satan/dragon the angel, of the supernatural types. Men stand no chancee to fight either.
I agree that stars mean either angels or cosmological beings, and a star is not automatically an angel, it could be a cosmological body. I haven't seen one verse proving that stars are linked to men.
those on earth that have heavenly information, or a message, that’s the symbolization used here of, of, of, heavenly stars. when reading about the birth of Jesus the Christ, revelation chapter 12 correspond to it to a tee. Matthews chapter 2 tells us how Herod the king, (the red dragon), tried to kill the baby Jesus.
There is not one verse that links Herod to the dragon. Please provide the verse that links Herod to a/the dragon. This link you're suggesting is nonexistent, even in Revelation 12.
it say that the dragon drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to earth, this to me is not a persuasion to follow the dragon, but an attempt by the dragon to use someone to gain heavenly knowledge. it said that his tail “DREW” the THIRD part of the stars of heaven. drew here, is another word to "gather" together. so who did king Herod drew, or gathered together unto himself? it's the stars or messengers that is on earth, with the heavenly knowledge of where the babe is to be born at. (I'll show this by scripture). Herod the king called/drew, or gathered together unto him his aids, to find out about the new born King, that the wise men came to worship. he wanted to know where the child was born at, so that he may kill the babe, (he stood ready to kill). as said, the word drew, past tense, mean to "gather"/draw together, king Herod inquired of the men of God, the (Heavenly messengers, or men of God), as to where the babe was born at. lets pick up the account in the scriptures. Matt 2:4 "And when he had gathered all the chief priests,(1 third), and scribes, (2 third), of the people together, (there it is, of the people, not angels in heaven). he demanded of them where Christ should be born". these men was of God, who should know the things of God, for they had the written word of the prophets, and yes, they did. scripture, Matt 2:5 "And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet, 6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel". here it is confirm that the babe came out of Judah. Now lets get the third part, or the final third of stars, the wise men. Matthews 2:7 “ Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared”. There is the third part, of the stars, the wise men. the scriptures said that the dragon, drew a third part, “of”, the stars, “of”, heaven. There you have it, all of the third part of the STARS. lets recap Matthews 2:4. 1/3 chief priests, 2/3 the scribes, and our 3/3 the wise men. there you have it.
I disagree with this finding in full. I don't think the keyword you're using here, "drew", is enough to link Herod to people gathering near him, nor being a/the dragon. I've shown why I think so in the above responses. No need to be redundant and retype that.
understand, just because a vision is shown in heaven do not nesseary mean it took place in heaven. so Matthews chapter 2 is the vision John saw which was the things that was "PAST". if one keep one hand on Revelation chapter 12, and the other hand on Matthews chapter 2, it the same event.
I agree, that it does or doesn't mean it took place in Heaven. However, in this case, I believe it does mean it took place in Heaven.
Revelation 1:1 is "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which
must shortly come to pass;". This doesn't mean "past", it means it is yet unfulfilled, therefore is not "past" yet.
Thanks again for the conversation.