The Religious Mind

If anyone is contentious, the only argument that will suffice for them is that these scriptures are based on culture/custom.

But 1 Corinthians 11:16 tells us that these scriptures are not based on culture/custom; that there is a timeless and cultureless aspect to them.

justbyfaith said:

If anyone is contentious, the only argument that will suffice for them is that these scriptures are based on culture/custom.

But 1 Corinthians 11:16 tells us that these scriptures are not based on culture/custom; that there is a timeless and cultureless aspect to them.

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28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Galations 3:28

“woman was not made from man’s head to be his ruler, nor from his feet to be his slave, but from his side to be his equal, and from beneath his strong arm to demand his protection.” - B. Hub

"...while forgetting the weightier matters..."?

Christ covers ALL. My reverence for Him would change not one iota were I to wear a hat to services. Sometimes my hair is shoulder length and sometimes it is very short.

Galatians 5:1
"For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery."
John 8:36
"So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed."

P.S. J.B.F.
If you and your wife are convicted by this, then you should heed it as if you do not, you are sinning because YOU believe it to be sin. Kind of like the one who eats or drinks what they want yet, not to let a brother stumble by taking that liberty in front of him/her.
For some things are sin to one but not another...
JMO JBF

historyb said:

Oh I think, correct me if I am wrong, you may think that we are Anglican. My denomination i=started in 1997 and is mostly international in scope except it does not appear we are in Australia yet. From our webpage "Uniquely, the ICCEC is not a schism or splinter group from another denomination. The ICCEC is not affiliated with the Episcopal Church USA, and is not a break-off of that church. " About Us - Charismatic Sacramental & Liturgical Church hopefully this helps and I hope I was not rude

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Why do you use the term 'Episcopal' in the name of your denomination if you are not using the Episcopal/Anglican liturgical structure?

Why would you start a new denomination with an Episcopal structure in 1997 when there is an evangelical Anglican/Episcopal denomination in the USA? See Trinity School for Ministry – An Evangelical School in the Anglican Tradition



I don't understand the need for another denomination when we already have approx. 33,000 of them worldwide.

justbyfaith said:

Paul teaches that long hair is given to a woman for a covering; therefore a vail is not necessary: because long hair is given in place of the vail.

Now if a woman has short hair, then she would need a vail while praying or prophesying.

Now the culture of our day is not in accordance with this. But I would ask you: what if it is the culture of heaven? Would you rebel against it if it were required as being the norm in heaven? Would you still want to be in heaven if it were the case?

If you wouldn't rebel against it then, why do you rebel against it now?

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does your wife sit in silence in a church service ?
1 Corinthians 14:34 King James Version (KJV)
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. there was so much going on in the corinth Church it takes deep study to understand what paul was writing. so the hair issue is a must then the woman can not speak in church . one law takes another law to be kept

OzSpen said:

Why do you use the term 'Episcopal' in the name of your denomination if you are not using the Episcopal/Anglican liturgical structure?

Why would you start a new denomination with an Episcopal structure in 1997 when there is an evangelical Anglican/Episcopal denomination in the USA? See Trinity School for Ministry – An Evangelical School in the Anglican Tradition

I don't understand the need for another denomination when we already have approx. 33,000 of them worldwide.

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We do use the structure but we are not Episcopalian we are a three streams church we would never be a part of the liberal Episcopal Church USA. As for the rest you will have to ask the powers that be I have give links so you can get as much answers as you can, it is up to you to click on them and learn. As the old saying "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink", i.e. I can give you links so you can see for yourself but I can't make you click on them. Now once again here are some links were you can go to learn: About Us - Charismatic Sacramental & Liturgical Church and Charismatic Episcopal Church - Wikipedia once again I hope this helps

Butterfly said:

Do you actually know what the cultural setting was for the Corinthian church ?
Also your arguement about lesbians, with regards to this issue of hair length is questionable - I know many lesbians who have long hair. So if no women ever had short hair there would be less lesbians - is that what you are saying ?
So the fact the women wear trousers, do you think that has promoted homosexuality!
Interesting - not sure whether I am being sarcastic or not.
Rita

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Butterfly,

I needed to do some further investigation of the background of 1 Cor 11:2-16 so I did that this morning (it's 10:49am Saturday). This is what I found:

There is a good, brief article on the background of the city of Corinth by J R McRay in Dictionary of New Testament Background (IVP 2000, pp 227-231).

He explained the city was named after a currant, a grape that grew in abundance in the vicinity. According to Athenaeus, about 460,000 slaves lived in the city.

At the time of Paul there were several religious structures in the city that formed an international crossroads of commerce and travel, a gateway between Asia and Europe:

1. Pagan sanctuaries in abundance, e.g.
2. Asclepius, where medicine and pagan idolatry were practised.
3. Temple of Athena, temple of Apollo;
4. Large temple, probably built by Roman Emperior, Tiberius, AD 14-37, to house the imperial cult;
5. Small temple whose identity is unknown;
6. Sanctuary of Demeter and Persephone;
7. Temple of Aphrodite once 'owned a thousand temple-slaves, prostitutes, whom both men and women had dedicated to the goddess';

McRay's assessment was that 'there can be little question that Corinth had a history of being an exceptionally immoral city, and it was still filled with immorality in Paul's day. Paul speaks of the "prevalent immorality" in the city (1 Cor 7:1)' (McRay 2000:228-229).

Gordon Fee's exegetical commentary on 1 Corinthians has an excellent, but detailed, exegesis of 1 Cor 11:2-16 to try to better understand the meaning of that passage and the 'head coverings' message.

Oz

(continued in Part 2)

Butterfly,

(Part 2 of 'head coverings')

In the Dictionary of New Testament Background (2000:442-447), C S Keener has an excellent article on 'head coverings' (based on research) and he made these points:

1. 'Although various reasons may have supported the covering of women's hair, the primary one was to protect the wife's or future wife's beauty for her husband alone'.
2. 'A loose woman might have her hair cropped; prostitutes also typically exposed more of their legs as well as their hair.... As early as the twelfth century B.C. Middle Assyrian laws associated veiling with marriage and prohibited prostitutes from wearing veils'.
3. 'But the issue was not prostitution itself; rather, uncovered hair invited male attention, an attitude that could signify promiscuity, whether or not it was connected with official legal prostitution'.
4. 'A primary reason for head coverings in the ancient Mediterranean world resembles that followed in some traditional parts of the Islamic Middle East today, where hair becomes an object of male lust and must be covered at puberty or after marriage'.
5. 'In some areas women who go about uncovered are considered common sexual property, and a girl who is not covered might be deemed promiscuous and hence forfeit the possibility of marriage'.
6. 'Head coverings, like long hair (1 Cor 11:14-15), might function as a male gender marker.... But a more basic purpose of the gender-based head covering was to shield married women from the gaze of men other than their husbands'.

Oz

Ezra said:

does your wife sit in silence in a church service ?

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Yes, she does. So do I. The pastor is giving the message; and the Holy Spirit doesn't interrupt Himself.

Nancy said:

"...while forgetting the weightier matters..."?

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In context..."these (justice, mercy, and faith) ye ought to have done while not leaving the other (tithing) undone"

Now I don't think you really mean it when you say that I am forgetting the weightier matters of the law. I have put much time and effort into explaining those matters; and will continue to do so.

But Jesus also said:

Luk 16:10, He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.

Thank you Ozpen - I tried to copy some info over, but could only get it to my email, have no idea how to get it onto a thread ! Lol

Pearl said:

That's a shame that the Holy Spirit only speaks through the pastor. At my church anybody can be used by the Spirit and is allowed to share.

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Pearl,

That's the way it was in the first century church according to 1 Cor 14:26 (NLT): 'Well, my brothers and sisters, let’s summarize. When you meet together, one will sing, another will teach, another will tell some special revelation God has given, one will speak in tongues, and another will interpret what is said. But everything that is done must strengthen all of you'.

My biblical understanding of the reason for this as the way it should be is based on the teaching of 1 Cor 12:7-11 (NLT)


The only places I've seen this happening in the contemporary churches are in house churches and a small number of cell groups.

What do you think has moved the church away from every-member giftedness for function when the church gathers to a handful of people operating in ministry, especially the pastor?

I consider the people of God are deprived from edification when only a handful are allowed to minister when the church gathers.

Oz

Pearl said:

That's a shame that the Holy Spirit only speaks through the pastor. At my church anybody can be used by the Spirit and is allowed to share.

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well he totally missed it out of respect when the pastor is preaching its his time.. we do amen . i was asking if she never said anything period .no questions no nothing.. if you follow one set scriptures follow all for the women

Ezra said:

well he totally missed it out of respect when the pastor is preaching its his time.. we do amen . i was asking if she never said anything period .no questions no nothing.. if you follow one set scriptures follow all for the women

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Ezra,

I'd like to better understand your position. Are you saying that when Paul said to the Corinthians, 'Women should be silent during the church meetings. It is not proper for them to speak. They should be submissive, just as the law says. If they have any questions, they should ask their husbands at home, for it is improper for women to speak in church meetings' (1 Cor 14:34-35 NLT) that he meant this for all time.

Do you affirm that there is no place for women to speak and teach to a mixed group when the church gathers? Women are to remain silent in the meeting.

Is that your understanding of the 'religious mind' in action during the church service?

Oz

OzSpen said:

Ezra,

I'd like to better understand your position. Are you saying that when Paul said to the Corinthians, 'Women should be silent during the church meetings. It is not proper for them to speak. They should be submissive, just as the law says. If they have any questions, they should ask their husbands at home, for it is improper for women to speak in church meetings' (1 Cor 14:34-35 NLT) that he meant this for all time.

Do you affirm that there is no place for women to speak and teach to a mixed group when the church gathers? Women are to remain silent in the meeting.

Is that your understanding of the 'religious mind' in action during the church service?

Oz

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my poston is the statement on the hair if a woman has short she brings shame i would suggest you read from post from post1 .if awoman shouldnot have short hair then they should follow what paul said about speaking in church.

Is that your understanding of the 'religious mind' in action during the church service?

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i want a spirit led mind in church the pope is religious ceremony

Ezra said:

i was asking if she never said anything period .no questions no nothing.. if you follow one set scriptures follow all for the women

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It is a shame for women to speak in church; and this is a timeless principle not based on culture.

One time my wife asked the pastor a question and I answered the question right in front of the pastor (though the answer was not an answer that I believe the pastor would have given). She is supposed to ask her own husband at home; he is the head of the household and is supposed to love his wife as Christ loves the church: and therefore he is perfectly capable of giving the answer to his woman in any situation where she might have a question.

I have also heard of situations where a woman has asked her unbelieving husband a Bible question and the husband got saved looking for the answer. There are all kinds of reasons why it is a good idea to follow the principles identified in the scriptures in question.

Pearl said:

My church started as a house church in the late seventies and still tries to operate in the way set out in scripture for the NewTestament church. It isn't perfect but better by far than the alternatives.

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Small groups is the way to go. So, rather than an "audience" upwards of thousands of people in one building there is honest to goodness fellowship, and True Church! When two or more are gathered...

justbyfaith said:

It is a shame for women to speak in church; and this is a timeless principle not based on culture.

One time my wife asked the pastor a question and I answered the question right in front of the pastor (though the answer was not an answer that I believe the pastor would have given). She is supposed to ask her own husband at home; he is the head of the household and is supposed to love his wife as Christ loves the church: and therefore he is perfectly capable of giving the answer to his woman in any situation where she might have a question.

I have also heard of situations where a woman has asked her unbelieving husband a Bible question and the husband got saved looking for the answer. There are all kinds of reasons why it is a good idea to follow the principles identified in the scriptures in question.

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so you don't allow your wife to speak for her self? how sad .i dont know how to break this to you but the woman are allowed to ask questions . you sir are a legalist . so what if you told her wrong? so from this point on this ends . we are not under law but grace .you are wrong on the hair you are wrong on the woman not allowed to speak in Church

OzSpen said:

Do you affirm that there is no place for women to speak and teach to a mixed group when the church gathers? Women are to remain silent in the meeting. Is that your understanding of the 'religious mind' in action during the church service?

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That is NOT *the religious mind* but the Mind of Christ and the Holy Spirit. That is why He gave Paul numerous verses of Scripture to bring this truth home. For CHRISTIAN WOMEN here is what God says:

1. Women are forbidden to teach the local church (men and women)
2. Women are forbidden to preach to the assembly
3. Women shall not take spiritual authority in the assembly
4. Women are to remain silent during worship
5. Women are to cover their heads during worship

All Bible-believing Christians should be in submission to the Word of God in this regard.