What Mormons Believe--according to a Former BYU Professor

Enoch111 said:

Correct. We use capital G for God and small g for false gods (including the god of this world). Even though this is an established fact, the New World Translation of the JWs makes Jesus (the Word) into a small g "god".

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god (John 1:1) (New World Translation)

How in the world can Jesus be "a god" without implying that He is a false god? Then they try to cover up their blunder with a footnote which says "Or was divine". But they do not believe that Jesus is God, so they are simply fooling the reader. If Jesus is divine, then He is God. But if Jesus is a false god then He is "a god".

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Is this true; is it an established fact that a capital “G” is used when referring to the true God and a small “g” when referring to false gods?

Let’s look at a few scriptures and see what they have to say on the issue.

“For even if there are so-called gods (Greek: theos, mighty ones), whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.” (1 Cor 8:5, 6 NKJV)

It is abundantly clear that the Apostle Paul was contrasting the various so-called gods (or FALSE theos), worshiped by the heathen with the one TRUE “theos”, or one true God. Although Herod was indeed a mighty one occupying a position of power and honor before the people, he was not in the true sense recognized by the Lord as a “theos”, a god or a mighty one. Pharaoh too, although referred to as (Hebrew: elohim, a god or mighty one), by the people, was also not recognized as such by the Lord.

Now even though there is but one altogether all-mighty the “ho Theos” or “el yon” the Most High God, the Father Himself, there are other individuals scripturally referred to as being TRUE gods (theos). Examples:

Our Lord:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god (theos).” John 1:1 (The Emphatic Diaglott)

Satan: (Although an evil “theos” he is nevertheless a true “theos” and is referred to as such by our Lord himself.)

“But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god (theos) of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.” (2 Cor 4:3, 4)

Angels:

“For you have made him a little lower than the angels (elohim), and you have crowned him with glory and honor.” (Psa 8:5)

Men:

“And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god (elohim) to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.” (Exod 7:1)

“And the sons of Heth answered Abraham, saying to him, “Hear us, my lord: You are a mighty (elohim) prince among us; bury your dead in the choicest of our burial places. None of us will withhold from you his burial place, that you may bury your dead.” (Gen 23: 5, 6)

The Church:

“I said, “You are gods (elohim); and all of you are children of the Most High (el yon, the highest God,) you shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.” (Psa 82:6)

We, now, though sons of the Most High die and appear to men nothing more than others, in us, as in our Leader and Head, God is manifest in our mortal flesh. (See John 10:35 and 2 Cor. 4:11)

As mentioned the word God signifies mighty one; but not always the All-mighty One. It is the translation of each of four Hebrew words--el, elah, elohim, and adonai, all signifying the mighty, or great. It is a general name, often and properly applied to our Heavenly Father, as well as to Jesus, angels, and men.

In Psalm 82 Verse 1 the distinction between beings referred to by the word God is very marked:

"God (elohim) stands in the congregation of the mighty (el); he judges among the gods" (elohim).

Here the first word, God, evidently refers to Jehovah, the All-mighty one, while the others evidently refer to other mighty ones--the church, the sons of God, of whom Jesus is the head or chief.

So in answer to our original question,

NO! It is not an established fact that a small “g” used in the word god denotes a false god. Nor does the fact that the word God is spelled with a capital “G” imply that it refers to the Almighty Himself, for example note how some translators use a capital “G” and some use a small “g” when referring to Moses in Exod 7:1.

Prayer Warrior said:

What translation are you using?

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I use the NKJV, although I do consult several other versions when engaged in serious bible study.

Prayer Warrior said:

Is it the Jehovah's Witness New World Translation?

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No, in my post I was merely quoting Benjamin Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott.

Prayer Warrior said:

This is the only translation that I know of that says the Word (Christ) was "a god," calling into question the divinity of Jesus Christ.

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This issue comes up all the time, neither we Bible Students nor the JW’s deny the divinity of Christ. We affirm that the Word (Logos) was made, flesh-became the Babe of Bethlehem-thus becoming the Man Jesus, "holy, harmless, undefiled, and separate from sinners." As we affirm the humanity of Jesus, we equally affirm the Divinity of Christ"

The question however is not whether or not Christ is divine; the question is when precisely did he become a divine being?

Our Trinity friends say he was always divine, but we are not interested in what they have to say, we want to know what the Scriptures have to say.

Let’s take a look at Phil 2:5-11 (ESV)

Verse 5-7 “Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God (a spirit being), did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Unlike the Adversary who aspired to ascend into heaven, to be like the Most High (his peer, his equal), our Lord chose rather to humbled Himself and to make Himself of no reputation, in order that others might be blessed. (Isa 14:13, 14)

Verse 8 “And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Not just up to “the point (or time) of death”, until death, but unto actual death. “…be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.” (Rev 2:10)

Verse 9-11 “Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

Had Jesus been on equality with God before, how could he have been highly exalted after?

This high exaltation is not merely one of POSITION of honor and authority, but likewise of CONDITION of being, for what position of honor and authority could our Lord have had that was greater than that which he previously had as the Logos (the Word) of God, His chief messenger the one through whom all things were brought into existence (Col 1:16, 17)?

After becoming a man he became obedient unto death; wherefore (or because of this), God hath highly exalted him TO the divine nature. (Verses 8 and 9)

If this scripture is true, it follows that he was not exalted to the divine nature until after the human nature was actually sacrificed--dead.

Now if our Lord were already a divine being as our Trinity friends say then he could not have actually died, for the very nature of the divinity is the immortal nature of the being, and the definition of IMMORTAL is a state or condition not liable to death. Not merely a condition of freedom from death, but a condition in which death is impossibility, Life inherent, that is Life in oneself, not dependent on any outside source.

Since his death and resurrection and subsequent glorification he (Jesus) is “the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone (with the exception of the Father) has immortality (the Divine Nature), dwelling in unapproachable light whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.” (1 Tim 6 15, 16)

“For as the Father hath life in himself (life inherent; immortality); SO HATH HE GIVEN to the Son to have life in himself” (John 5:26)

This shows that our Lord was NOT immortal, NOT divine until after he was highly exalted. And that it was something that was given to him, not something he already possessed.

It is manifest that the Son, in his preexistence, did not enjoy divine life. He was a glorious spirit being, the beginning of the creation of God (Rev 3:14). All else of God’s creation was created through him (Eph. 3:9; yet, he was mortal. Only by being mortal was he able to do his Father’s will (Heb 10:9). Only by being mortal could he give up his spiritual existence in heaven, become and earthly being (Rom 8:3), and the die as a man.

Okay. Greetings. Don't know if your introduction into this thread is good or bad @Harvest 1874 , I'm certain @Jane_Doe22 is as happy as someone who has just struck the jackpot...no pressure. But I'm going to disagree with both you and @Prayer Warrior . Well, not disagree so much, but rather to simply offer a different perspective, which satisfies the challenges that you both have made to one another.
So the principal issue is the divinity of the Son of God. I would like to ask you both a question. But first, I want to make it crystal clear that while I do not categorise myself as a Trinitarian, I absolutely affirm the divinity of Christ. I would also not shun being labelled an Arian necessarily, seeing there is a lot of doubt as to what Arius actually taught and believed, the vast majority of his works having been destroyed, and the remaining up for debate as to who actually authored it, or whether they have been altered to be in harmony with the accusations made against him by his enemies. The reason for this doubt is the confirmed writings of Wulfilas, a missionary to the Goths in those early centuries and who almost single handedly converted the entire Gothic nation...to Arianism...yet his writings, concerning which there is no debate as to their authenticity, confirm absolutely that Wulfilas believed whole heartedly in the divinity of Christ...His coming forth from the Father (begotten not created), and His pre-existence to the incarnation. And that is what he taught the "Arian" Goths, as they were branded by their enemies, particularly Rome who saw in them a major obstacle to Pontifical authority.
So in reality, the only word we have as to the teaching that Arius and his followers were heretics and believed in the Son being created rather than begotten at some time before creation, (as Wulfilas taught) is the word of the enemies of Arius and the friends of the Alexandrian Athanasius who was quite possibly a disciple of Origen who was at that time acceptable to Rome, but was later himself condemned as a heretic for his Gnosticism.
Okay, now that is said, my question. When did the Son of God become a Son, and how? JWs say created before creation ...others say begotten (whatever that may mean to them) before creation. Others say at the incarnation. I would posit that at whatever time the Son became a Son...being begotten (being brought forth at some stage in eternity) of the Father and thus of the very same nature as the Father, (unlike created beings who only have what is granted them as opposed to what is inherited naturally by divine DNA [for want of another expression]) and being of the same nature as the Father is inherently divine.
Now Harvest mentioned an important point. If Jesus were divine before the resurrection, how could He die? And that is a very good question, but there is a simple answer. Because He was born/begotten of the Father, He was given the power to lay aside His divinity in order to become wholly human. Though He remained the divine Son of God, the prerogatives of divinity He set aside until once again He came into His glory after the resurrection.
@Prayer Warrior , you mentioned several instances where you believe Jesus showed or 'proved' His divinity. I would like to suggest you revisit those times and circumstances, and consider that Jesus was acting at all times as our example, and was living in faith. He said Himself did He not that He did none of the works, but the Father? And He did not know everything...only those things His Father revealed to Him. For example, He wasn't able to tell His disciples when He was returning, because only His Father knew right? And just one other thing. Those things you say that Jesus 'knew' that proved His divinity; could He not have known them through studying scripture and being informed by the holy Spirit just as we may be? Is that not how He came to realise who He was? And what His mission was? That He learned by reading about Himself in scripture, just as we do? Quite a mind blowing thought that when you consider it, but one I believe to be true. I do not think He knew who He was as a child. He grew into understanding and lived His whole life by faith in what He learned in scripture, overcame temptation by faith in the power of the same Word, and showed us by example how the just can live by faith.

Prayer Warrior said:

Back on Topic.

Here's some info from "Appendix 2" of Lynn Wilders' book that I wanted to include from the beginning of this thread, but it's in chart form, and I couldn't figure out a way to copy and paste it here without changing the formatting in the book. So, I am changing the original formatting from chart form. I'm only including a few of key points, but I may add more later. She includes more in her book.

The following excerpt is from "Appendix 2" of Unveiling Grace: the Story of How We Found Our Way out of the Mormon Church by Dr. Lynn Wilder (original formatting changed):

QUICK DOCTRINAL COMPARISON OF MORMONISM AND THE BIBLE​

THE BIBLE TEACHES: The Church Consists of the Body of Believers • “Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us” (Rom.12:4 – 6). • “Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it” (Eph. 4:3 – 7). • Jesus said, “I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it” (Matt. 16:18). • Also see: Matt. 18:19 – 20; Mark 3:24 – 25; 1 Cor. 1:10 – 12; 12:11 – 14; Eph. 1:22 – 23 (cf. Col. 1:24); 5:25 – 26.

MORMONISM TEACHES: The Mormon Church Is the Only True Church • “And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually” (D&C 1:30). Here, allegedly, Christ himself gives Joseph Smith and the other early church leaders power to lay the foundation of the only church with which he is well pleased. • “I was answered that I must join none of them [Christian churches], for they were all wrong; and the Personage [Jesus] who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt . . .” (Joseph Smith — History 1:19).

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THE BIBLE TEACHES: God Is Spirit • “To the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever” (1 Tim. 1:17). • “God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth” (John 4:24). • “The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation” (Col. 1:15). • “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known” (John 1:18). • “ ‘Who can hide in secret places so that I cannot see them?’ declares the LORD. ‘Do not I fill heaven and earth?’ ” (Jer. 23:24).

MORMONISM TEACHES: God the Father Has a Body of Flesh and Bones • “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s” (D&C 130:22). • “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! . . . I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see . . . he was once a man like us . . . and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 345 – 46).​

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THE BIBLE TEACHES: There Is One God • “ ‘You are my witnesses,’ declares the LORD, ‘and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me’” (Isa. 43:10). • “This is what the LORD says — Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. . . . Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock [God]; I know not one” (Isa. 44:6, 8). • Also see: James 2:19; Deut. 6:4; Neh. 9:6 (cf. Hos. 13:4); Isa. 45:21 – 22.

MORMONISM TEACHES: Plurality of Gods — Do Not Accept the Triune God — Man Works His Way to Godhood. • “Then they shall be gods, because they have no end . . . then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods . . . and the angels are subject unto them” (D&C 132:20). • “They have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods” (D&C 132:37). • “Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth” (see Abraham 4:1 – 31; 5:1 – 21). • “I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost a distinct personage or spirit, and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 370).​

Wilder, Lynn K.. Unveiling Grace (p. 341-343). Zondervan. Kindle Edition. (Emphasis in bold and underlining added.)

***Lynn Wilder gives additional info about the comparison of biblical Christian doctrine and Mormon doctrine on her website here: Ex-mormon Christians United For Jesus | Sharing Biblical truth in love | Are Mormon Doctrines Christian?

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I have already addressed these points multiple times and been completely ignored each time. I see no reason to repeat the process again.

Jane_Doe22 said:

I have already addressed these points multiple times and been completely ignored each time. I see no reason to repeat the process again.

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And of course those quotes taken directly from the lips of Smith are out of context right? And as for that book, doctrines and covenants, how dare anyone quote that to show what Mormons believe. Not fair.

brakelite said:

And of course those quotes taken directly from the lips of Smith are out of context right? And as for that book, doctrines and covenants, how dare anyone quote that to show what Mormons believe. Not fair.

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*rolls eyes*
Frankly: I don't think PW or you honestly care about the facts of what Mormons believe. Hence the continual ignoring. I would love to be proven wrong about that, of course.

Prayer Warrior said:

Actually, I told you way back at the beginning of this thread that I have read much of what you've said in this thread and in other threads on this topic.

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I literally have posted addressing those same points multiple times in this thread. And been continually ignored over and over again. Hence my statement.

Prayer Warrior said:

Yeah, I know it's a bummer when we have to repeat ourselves over and over. That's the very definition of a parent.

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Dude/Duddette: nobody here is anyone's parent.

Prayer Warrior said:

Very true. I just threw that last part in. (I am a dudette.)

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Dudette then.

Frankly: I (like every other person) don't like being ignored. I don't see anything eddying to be gained here.

Prayer Warrior said:

I haven't been ignoring you. I've been reading your posts. You're free to post or not like everyone else.

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'Reading' and then ignoring.

PW: your salvation is not tied to me being a devil worshiper (which I am not). It's ok for you to listen and get your facts straight about what I believe. Your salvation isn't tied to the idea that I don't know Christ. Would you like to actually talk and listen about things?