Biblical Foreknowledge

SovereignGrace said:

You are the one advocating this, not I, my friend. You are saying that those who repent and believe He saves, and those who don't, He doesn't save. You are saying He saves them based on that which they do, and that make Him a respecter of persons.

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Not at all. A Just God judges by our deeds. If men are called to repent and do not, if God made it possible for them to and they don't, it's not God's decision. Why make things so complicated? Ezekiel is clear and simple:

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

This is a message from one of God's servants to men. IT is God reminding men they have another chance to repent.

I believe that everyone who repents and believes He will save. Yet, it is God who grants both of these to His elect, not all men indiscriminately.

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So we're back to you thinking God has favorites. Yet you tell me I'm the one who thinks God is a respecter of persons? I don't understand you.

When God chose Israel, is was not because that nation was any better than the rest, and thereby, moving Him to elect them. On the contrary, we can read “The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;[Deuteronomy 7:7-9] Notice how Moses wrote this who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments. Now, who are those who love Him? Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.[1 John 4:7] Those who love God have been born of Him. No one wills themselves saved, but it via divine quickening, being born again, born from above, born of God.[John 1:12, Romans 9:16, Ephesians 1:20]<---the very same power that rose the Christ from the tomb is the very same power that quickens the dead to life, and it is NOT anything they did to accomplish this feat, but solely via the power of God.

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Ah, let us not miss a critical point. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were elect. Not all Israel at Sinai were part of the original 144,000 of Israel. There were 600,000 adults males at Sinai. Obviously many had already grafted onto the Tree of Life.

It was because of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that these "non-elect" ones (those born as Gentiles and Israelites) were given the Land of Promise. Thus we see how election works.

Deuteronomy 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

We see another indication of how election works here:

Genesis 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

God cannot speak to those who do not wish to hear Him. He can reach people however through His elect ones. Anyone who blessed Abraham could be blessed by God. Ties were being established. I believe if a non-elect person can love someone who is elect, a tie is created; and God can use that tie to save the non-elect. The non-elect can become elect by associating with and accepting the elect.

Matthew 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

@Giuliano

God does not show favoritism per Acts of the Apostles 10:34, Romans 2:11, Galatians 2:6, & Ephesians 6:9. What this means is that in election, there was nothing special in those He elected that was missing in the non-elect. He chose them based upon Himself, not themselves.

SovereignGrace said:

@Giuliano

God does not show favoritism per Acts of the Apostles 10:34, Romans 2:11, Galatians 2:6, & Ephesians 6:9. What this means is that in election, there was nothing special in those He elected that was missing in the non-elect. He chose them based upon Himself, not themselves.

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It's random then?

Willie T said:

Hate to mess up good fighting, but to get back on track....
How is it that I have never met — nor will any of us ever meet — a Calvinist who will declare they are NOT one of the chosen elect? If those who are "out of the clique" cannot know this same supposed "fact", does that not paint God as a monster who created people, just like the Calvinists, to be little more than fodder to be burned alive? (Or is the "destruction" they are fated for just peaceful, gentle "falling asleep forever?")
Is there some point to creating people, just to destroy...…. if they don't even know they were so created, and have no possible chance to do anything about it?

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Calvinists remind me of the Jews in Jesus' day who saw themselves as special. They can't explain why they're special, but they're convinced they are.

John Caldwell said:

I think all would agree that "know" can mean to possess a cognitive knowledge, to have a sexual relationship, and to become aquanted with.

The issue is which of the three possible choices fits? We have really two - to know cognitively and to become associated with.

Traditionally the first has been used (across the board - Calvinists and non-Calvinists alike). It is the most common definition of the word (like Christ knowing what is in the heart of man).

So the question becomes, who shift to the latter definition (to become associated with)?

I suggest it is eisegesis. People read their theology back into the text rather than allowing the text to determine its meaning.

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What does Jesus mean then when he tells some people he never knew them? Surely we cannot believe Jesus doesn't know about them.

How do you read this:

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

I read it to mean any man can establish an intimate relationship with Jesus if he opens the door when he hears Jesus' voice. Another hint about this intimate relationship being established is:

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Those passages suggest to me that God is more concerned about people having a "close relationship" with Him than about God's merely being aware of them. God is aware of everyone. In that way, God knows everyone. That should almost go without saying. Thus the idea of God's "foreknowing" people cannot mean He is aware of them cognitively. God foreknows everyone cognitively. God does not "know" all people however in terms of having an intimate relationship with them.

Giuliano said:

It's random then?

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Nope. He chose them from before the foundation of the world, but it’s not random like lotto #’s.

Giuliano said:

Calvinists remind me of the Jews in Jesus' day who saw themselves as special. They can't explain why they're special, but they're convinced they are.

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Another misrepresentation of my(our) beliefs. With that, I am tucking you away in my ever growing ignore list. Good bye!

SovereignGrace said:

Nope. He chose them from before the foundation of the world, but it’s not random like lotto #’s.

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I see you put me on ignore -- but I'll answer anyway. You say it's not random, but you failed to say what made it nonrandom.

SovereignGrace said:

Another misrepresentation of my(our) beliefs. With that, I am tucking you away in my ever growing ignore list. Good bye!

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I think I touched a sensitive spot? I would prefer to have a Calvinist tell us why God picked him to be saved. The Jews forgot why God picked them.
Let's read again what Israel, the elect ones, were told:

Deuteronomy 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

The elect were also told:

Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Time and again, they succumbed to vanity, thinking themselves special because they were elect, as sons of Abraham. I will rephrase what Jesus told the Jews in his day -- that God can raise up elect ones from stones if He wishes.

Luke 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Anthony D'Arienzo said:

God chooses to set His love on the elect as that is the good pleasure of His will.
Read eph1

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What determines the good pleasure of His Will? Is it random? What does "all" mean here:

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

What about this verse later on?

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

How can that be? I have my views, what are yours? Actually I base few of my views on Paul alone since Peter advises against reading Paul by himself. Reading only what Paul wrote can be misleading.

Giuliano said:

the original 144,000 of Israel.

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the orig 144000 of Israel?

Giuliano said:

So we're back to you thinking God has favorites. Yet you tell me I'm the one who thinks God is a respecter of persons? I don't understand you.

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"like"
work to make your calling and election sure

Giuliano said:

There were 600,000 adults males at Sinai. Obviously many had already grafted onto the Tree of Life.

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obviously they all died, i guess

Giuliano said:

It was because of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that these "non-elect" ones (those born as Gentiles and Israelites) were given the Land of Promise. Thus we see how election works.

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"its like this and like that
and like this
and uh"

Giuliano said:

God cannot speak to those who do not wish to hear Him.

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you speak to us, and we will listen; but do not let Him speak to us again, or we will die

Giuliano said:

God cannot speak to those who do not wish to hear Him. He can reach people however through His elect ones. Anyone who blessed Abraham could be blessed by God. Ties were being established.

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"...and like thisss,
and like that..."

Giuliano said:

I believe

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ah, the naive, finally. Fwiw i believe you are incorrect there tho,

Giuliano said:

I believe if a non-elect person can love someone who is elect, a tie is created;

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chiefly bc work to make your calling and election etcetc, but i do apprecite the un sentiment, might even be true! Of course if a "non-elect" person (me, for instance) can love someone who is non-elect, a tie is also created, yes?

ps, you down with the Snoop Dogg, bro? Or what?

bbyrd009 said:

the orig 144000 of Israel?

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Yes, that's the number that were with Jesus when Eden was established.

Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

They are the Bride. The great multitude before the throne are those invited to the Wedding Feast -- they are everyone else that was brought into the Kingdom.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

That number described as "male virgins" neither male nor female but both, the way the original H'adam was. The term is odd since that's the only time "virgin" is used of men. If you divide them into males and females, it would be 288,000. I believe that that 288,000 was with the Lamb before the Foundation is shown in Genesis 1:2 where the word "moved" or "rachaph" equals 288. "Moved" is okay, but I prefer "hovered" which gives the right notion of a bird hovering over her chicks -- or a dove hovering over the water. At any rate, the 288,000 revert back to the original 144,000 since in the Kingdom, there is neither male nor female. Male and female have become one again, so there is no more marrying either.

Giuliano said:

What does Jesus mean then when he tells some people he never knew them? Surely we cannot believe Jesus doesn't know about them.

How do you read this:

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

I read it to mean any man can establish an intimate relationship with Jesus if he opens the door when he hears Jesus' voice. Another hint about this intimate relationship being established is:

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Those passages suggest to me that God is more concerned about people having a "close relationship" with Him than about God's merely being aware of them. God is aware of everyone. In that way, God knows everyone. That should almost go without saying. Thus the idea of God's "foreknowing" people cannot mean He is aware of them cognitively. God foreknows everyone cognitively. God does not "know" all people however in terms of having an intimate relationship with them.

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These are different words.

"Know" means to have a knowledge or acquaintance. Hebrews also used the word as an idiom for intercourse.

The tense "knew" in that Jesus never knew them refers to association. Those people were mot trult asdociated with Jesus.

Jesus knowing what men were thinking refers to a cognitive knowledge.

Foreknowledge always refers to prescience. It does not work that those God has a pre-association with He predestined.

Even if we create a new definition based on the Jewish idiom for sexual relations it does not work. The reason is that while God is eternal we are not.

Foreknow means what it has always meant - knowing beforehand.

When people change the meaning to foreknew to mean something relational all they are doing is reading what they interpret from the verse through their theology back into that one word.

It is not an attempt to support their own theology as their theology is not dependent on redefining the word. It is an attempt to exclude other interpretations by misrepresenting the actual biblical text.

I caution that liberal hermeneutics is dangerous. It may be working for you today but it can easily be against you tomorrow.

Willie T said:

Boy, THAT says a psychology volume's worth...….. and she doesn't even realize it. LOL

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LOL. Spot on.

bbyrd009 said:

the orig 144000 of Israel?

"like"
work to make your calling and election sure

obviously they all died, i guess

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Ah, but that does not mean they are eternally lost. Paul tells us all Israel will be saved. By that, I take it to mean the original 144,000 cannot be lost. Do not assume that because they did not enter the Land of Promise that they are eternally lost.

They did not return to Egypt. They had kvetched about the wonderful things they had (as slaves) in Egypt; but they stayed with Moses, knowing they would die in the wilderness. They followed the Pillar too. Why did they do that? So their children could enter?

"its like this and like that
and like this
and uh"

you speak to us, and we will listen; but do not let Him speak to us again, or we will die

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The Voice of God frightened them; and they could not discern much intelligence in it. It was a din to them that threatened them. All they could discern was the ten sayings.

This was the reason they got words written down. Many people want to find God but aren't quite ready to hear for themselves. Holy books and holy men serve a purpose for them.

"...and like thisss,
and like that..."
ah, the naive, finally. Fwiw i believe you are incorrect there tho,
chiefly bc work to make your calling and election etcetc, but i do apprecite the un sentiment, might even be true! Of course if a "non-elect" person (me, for instance) can love someone who is non-elect, a tie is also created, yes?

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Love never fails. If you love someone, surely you have to believe God also loves them -- and probably more than you do.

When we read that God will wipe away all tears, surely we don't think that means He will wipe out bad memories or good memories we have of people "burning in hell." No, if we loved them, and sooner or later, they will be saved. All tears will be wiped away.

ps, you down with the Snoop Dogg, bro? Or what?

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I don't know much about rap.