Biblical Foreknowledge

John Caldwell · Oct 5, 2019

Willie T said:
You guys do realize, don't you, the ludicrousness of the idea that we are required to have "doctrine" that fully matches what God intended? Can any of you, in your wildest dreams, imagine that you actually know the mind of God? I doubt there is even one person who ever lived that "got it right."
That leaves us with egg on our faces when, using our own notions of doctrine, have the audacity to tell someone else THEIR doctrine is wrong.

That is why I am so opposed to giving words "biblical" meanings. If we at least try to be objective (as best we can) with the actual text it will undoubtedly support competing doctrines. That is fine because our doctrines can change - and when they do, if we are faithful to the text, we will see that the inconsistencies resides in us and not God.

That said....I'm pretty sure my doctrine is right because if it were not I'd change it so it would be

.

Giuliano · Oct 5, 2019

Willie T said:
You guys do realize, don't you, the ludicrousness of the idea that we are required to have "doctrine" that fully matches what God intended? Can any of you, in your wildest dreams, imagine that you actually know the mind of God? I doubt there is even one person who ever lived that "got it right."
That leaves us with egg on our faces when, using our own notions of doctrine, have the audacity to tell someone else THEIR doctrine is wrong.

I am content with any interpretation of Scripture that makes it easier for me to love God or my neighbor. If I read a passage and my mind suggests something hateful about God, I figure I must be wrong. I could be wrong, but that's my standard. Give me an interpretation that helps me love God or my neighbor better, and I'll drop my current take. I remain open-minded then.

Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Anthony D'Arienzo · Oct 5, 2019

"Giuliano,

What do you think God's purpose for His elect is? I think it was for them to act as witnesses to others so that the non-elect also could be saved.

There are no non elect persons saved.

John Caldwell · Oct 5, 2019

Anthony D'Arienzo said:
"Giuliano,

There are no non elect persons saved.

At the same time, per Scripture there are no elect people who are not saved. Gotta love the biblical perspective.

Anthony D'Arienzo · Oct 5, 2019

John Caldwell said:
I never posted that I hate Calvinists.

There is no post, @Anthony D'Arienzo , for me to restore because it only occurred in your imagination.

I am talking about the deleted post, and thread that was at the end of january...lol you are denying it existed again???
You know the post JonC.....how all the calvinuists were ganging up on you, and were dishonest, and untrustworthy liars...that post.
I mean you deleted 4 or 5 posts on that whole scenerio. During the inquiry you deleted two additional posts, they are the ones the pastor sent to me...I still have them...

Anthony D'Arienzo · Oct 5, 2019

John Caldwell,

You and Anthony should not have carried any issues about the BB here in the first place[/QUOTE].

It is you who came here as a troll. We cannot speak to you on BB as you delete, edit, and ban us from the site when we do.

If you have an issue on one forum it is asinine to leave that forum and bring it to another.

Click to expand...

i have not left that forum...you have not allowed me to speak openly, because i pointed out many of your lies. There are more, but i do not have the time to search your foul posts.
[QUOTE]Not only do you owe @Willie T an apology, but you owe this forum an apology.

Until you repent of your ungodly lying and false witness, there is nothing to apologize for. We will not let you bring your lying here.

For my part, I do apologize to the forum that I interacted with Anthony and SovereignGrace's childish posts. I should have ignored their foolishness (as Scripture dictates) and realized they were only trolling me.

Go away JonC

The blatant lie about me stating I hate Calvinists was the trap that caught my attention. But I think anyone can discern the falseness of their assertion.[/QUOTE]

Post the deleted post here, let's take a look at how you love your calvinist brethren....

John Caldwell · Oct 5, 2019

Anthony D'Arienzo said:
I am talking about the deleted post, and thread that was at the end of january...lol you are denying it existed again???
You know the post JonC.....how all the calvinuists were ganging up on you, and were dishonest, and untrustworthy liars...that post.
I mean you deleted 4 or 5 posts on that whole scenerio. During the inquiry you deleted two additional posts, they are the ones the pastor sent to me...I still have them...

You never quit.

Did you know that holding such a grudge is not only an unhealthy obsession but it is a sin? Did you know that? It is contrary to how Christians are commanded to live (it is, in essence, satanic).

I never posted that I hate Calvinists....period. You lied when you said that I did. Apparently also when you claimed a pastor had the post. It does not exist.

I never posted that I hate Calvinists. Get that through your head. I suppose you may think I did, and maybe an imaginary pastor told you he had a copy of the post. But here in the real world I never posted that I hate Calvinists.

I do not even hate you, and you have given cause.

To the topic - Scripture does not present unsaved elect or saved non-elect.

Giuliano · Oct 5, 2019

John Caldwell said:
At the same time, per Scripture there are no elect people who are not saved. Gotta love the biblical perspective.

Anthony D'Arienzo said:
"Giuliano,

There are no non elect persons saved.

What about the Gentiles grafted in who are later cut out?

What if God chooses someone now? Are you limiting God there?

Anthony D'Arienzo · Oct 5, 2019

"Willie T,

How is it that I have never met — nor will any of us ever meet — a Calvinist who will declare they are NOT one of the chosen elect?

Calvinists rejoice In God's election as it is meant to be a great blessing to the Church.
Why would you think a Calvinist of all people would deny the election of believers?

If those who are "out of the clique"

Why would you give such a profane suggestion as this in reference to God? ...a clique???

cannot know this same supposed "fact"

,

non elect persons do not have the Spirit.

does that not paint God as a monster

Why speak of our Holy God in this manner? This is evil to refer to a Holy God this way.

who created a group of people, who are just like the Calvinists, to be little more than fodder to be burned alive after they have spent their allotted time here on the Earth?

This twisted view of the biblical worldview is evil and needs to be repented of.

(Or is the "destruction" they are fated for just peaceful, gentle "falling asleep forever?")
Is there some point to creating people, with the sole purpose just to eventually destroy them...…. if they don't even know they were created for only that reason, and have no possible chance to do anything about it?[/QUOTE]

Do you hate God? Creation does not sound like what you post.

Here is what God said;
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

King James Version (KJV)

Anthony D'Arienzo · Oct 5, 2019

John Caldwell,

You never quit.

How can I when you continue to actively lie?

[QUOTE]Did you know that holding such a grudge is not only an unhealthy obsession but it is a sin?[/QUOTE]

I am not holding a grudge. I am just not going to allow you to tell lie after lie and twist things as you do

Did you know that? It is contrary to how Christians are commanded to live (it is, in essence, satanic).

A person lying on a daily basis has no credibility on a Christian forum. You seem to believe lying and false witness are spiritual gifts, but they are not...You lie right here in this post.

I never posted that I hate Calvinists....period. You lied when you said that I did. Apparently also when you claimed a pastor had the post. It does not exist.

There are two lies here. You once again deny the post, and thread existed, which I have you saying they did exist and were deleted, that is lie number one.
Lie number two is, I have said my pastor friend sent me two of the deleted posts that you did during the inquiry...I have said that a few times now, but you make is sound like I was speaking about the deleted thread, that only you or an administrator can restore. I have asked the owner of the site to contact me, but he has not so far. he could probably pull it up.
If Dr. Bob was healthy I would ask him to do it.

I never posted that I hate Calvinists. Get that through your head. I suppose you may think I did, and maybe an imaginary pastor told you he had a copy of the post. But here in the real world I never posted that I hate Calvinists.

Click to expand...

Re-post that whole thread, or that post, and let's see the loving description you gave to us

[QUOTE]I do not even hate you, and you have given cause.[/QUOTE]

I do not want to list your insults toward me here to defile the people here.

Anthony D'Arienzo · Oct 5, 2019

John Caldwell said:
When people change the meaning to foreknew to mean something relational all they are doing is reading what they interpret from the verse through their theology back into that one word.

It is not an attempt to support their own theology as their theology is not dependent on redefining the word. It is an attempt to exclude other interpretations by misrepresenting the actual biblical text.

I caution that liberal hermeneutics is dangerous. It may be working for you today but it can easily be against you tomorrow.

Your lack of biblical understanding does not alter the passage at all.

from precept austin;
Romans 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; (NASB: Lockman)

Greek: hoti ous proegno, (3SAAI) kai proorisen (3SAAI) summorphous tes eikonos tou huiou autou, eis to einai (PAN) auton prototokon en pollois adelphois

Amplified: For those whom He foreknew [of whom He was aware and loved beforehand], He also destined from the beginning [foreordaining them] to be molded into the image of His Son [and share inwardly His likeness], that He might become the firstborn among many brethren. (Amplified Bible - Lockman)

NLT: For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn, with many brothers and sisters. (NLT - Tyndale House)

Phillips: God, in his foreknowledge, chose them to bear the family likeness of his Son, that he might be the eldest of a family of many brothers. (Phillips: Touchstone)

Wuest: Because, those whom He foreordained He also marked out beforehand as those who were to be conformed to the derived image of His Son, with the result that He is firstborn among many brethren.

Young's Literal: For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren;

Anthony D'Arienzo · Oct 5, 2019

pt2
Foreknew (4267) (proginosko [word study] from pró = before + ginosko = know) know about something prior to some temporal reference point. For example, to know about an event before it happens, to know beforehand, or to have foreknowledge. Proginosko describes God’s eternal counsel and includes all that He has considered and purposed to do prior to human history. In the language of Scripture, something foreknown is not simply that which God was aware of prior to a certain point, but also includes the idea of that which God gave prior consent to or which received His favorable or special recognition. Hence, proginosko is reserved for those matters which God favorably, deliberately and freely chose and ordained.

Proginosko - 5x in 5v - Acts 26:5; Rom 8:29; 11:2; 1 Pet 1:20; 2 Pet 3:17. NAS - foreknew(2), foreknown(1), knowing… beforehand(1), known(1).

The language of scripture,
God's foreknowledge is much more than just having prescience of what will happen in the future, but its full meaning is beyond our finite comprehension. [Acts 2:23] speaks of Christ as being delivered to be crucified "by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God."" His works surely were not planned merely by His foreknowledge of what they would be for that would place the power in the hands of man -- some say because it seems "logical" from our perspective that God looked into the future, saw what men would do and then He predestined them to salvation. That's not what Scripture says. That would put the initiative and impetus for salvation in the hands of depraved God hating men. We simply have to acknowledge that we don't have to explain this -- what we do have to do is rest in whatever He says for His ways are higher than our ways. By the way no where in Scripture does it say God foreknew or predestined anyone to hell.

God foreknew that Israel would be His people (Ro 11:2-note), yet He later chose them by His own will. It clearly suggests planning ahead of time, not just knowing ahead of time. Nothing takes God by surprise; His decisions are not determined by our decisions. Yet in every case where God's planning and predestinating are involved (Acts 2:23), it is also true that those who acted according to His foreknowledge carried out those acts of their own volition.

Anthony D'Arienzo · Oct 5, 2019

pt3
Predestined (4309) (proorizo from pró = before + horízo = to determine, as by a boundary or limit in turn from horos = boundary, limit <> Source of our English word "horizon" = God's boundary between heaven and earth) literally means to mark out beforehand or set the the limits or boundaries in advance of any place or thing. When used of persons, proorizo means to put limitations upon that person thus conveys the idea of to determine his destiny. Though proorizo meant simply to plan in advance, in the New Testament it attracted a special meaning. Here the idea is a divine decree of God, whereby He determined in advance that something should happen.

Here in Romans 8:29 Paul is saying that God has predetermined the destiny or the future of each believer, a glorious future in which he or she will be like Christ, conformed to the image of His Son! And so we see that predestination need not be a frightful word for the believer but in fact a wonderful doctrine which should bring comfort , encouragement and thankfulness to our heart. God is in control. He has a plan for your life and mine! Note carefully that it was not the fact of our faith as foreknown by God that moved Him to "foreordain" us. The blessings and mercies recounted in this section are the result of His eternal purpose in Christ.

Proorizo reminds us that God is the supreme historian who wrote all history before it ever began and it is therefore not surprising that proorizo is used only of God in the NT.

Anthony D'Arienzo · Oct 5, 2019

[QUOTE="Giuliano,

What about the Gentiles grafted in who are later cut out?

What if God chooses someone now? Are you limiting God there?

In romans 11, unbelieving Jews are broken off, that believing gentiles are grafted in.

Anthony D'Arienzo · Oct 5, 2019

Here this was found on monergism;
Foreknowledge: Prescience vs. Divine Prerogative

There are two possible bases or foundations for Divine election: foreseen faith based on a bare foreknowledge [prescience], or a covenant love grounded in the Divine prerogative and expressed in free and sovereign grace. The Scriptures reveal that the ultimate cause of Divine election rests in the depths of Divine love and prerogative. God is never moved or motivated externally to himself. He is ever motivated from within his own self– consistency. Should he be mutable due to external causes, he would cease to be God, and be relative to his creation and subject to some nebulous, external absolute force such as chance or some impersonal fatalistic principle. The Scriptures reveal that the Divine choice of sinners to salvation rests in God alone. This is for the assurance and encouragement of the believer in his present experience—that he might be assured of the certain and infallible nature of his salvation, especially in the context of present trials and opposition (Deut. 4:37; 7:6–7; 10:14–15; Eph. 1:4–5; Rom. 8:28–39; 9:13– 14; 11:33–36).

What of foreknowledge? Divine election based on foreseen faith would be election by mere foreknowledge [prescience]. The biblical usage must determine the exact significance of the term. What is the biblical teaching concerning the foreknowledge of God? Foreknowledge is not synonymous with omniscience. It is concerned, not with contingency, but with certainty (Acts 2:23; 15:18; Rom. 8:29–30), and thus implies a knowledge of what has been rendered certain. Acts 2:23 would make foreknowledge dependent upon God’s “determinate counsel” by the grammatical construction which combines both together as one thought with “foreknowledge” referring to and enforcing the previous term. Foreknowledge is related to the Old Testament term “to know,” implying an intimate knowledge of and relation to its object (Cf. Gen. 4:1; Amos 3:2). The passages in the New Testament (Rom. 8:29; 11:2; 1 Pet. 1:2) all speak of persons who are foreknown, implying much more than mere prescience or omniscience—a relationship that is absolutely certain, personal and intimate. The only example of things being foreknown is clearly based on Divine determination (Acts 15:18).

Because Divine election or foreordination to eternal life is grounded in the immutable character of God, it is infallible. Were it based upon foreseen faith, mere prescience, or human ability, it would remain fallible and mutable.

Because of its infallible and immutable character, Divine election or foreordination to eternal life is the source of the greatest comfort, 125 encouragement and perseverance to the believer. This is exactly the way in which and the reason why this truth is revealed in Scripture! Note especially the great and glorious statement of the Apostle in Romans 8:28–39. Under inspiration, he puts this truth in the context of the present promise (v. 28), the eternal redemptive purpose (v. 29–34), the very worst that believers can experience (v. 35–36), the redemptive, covenant love of the Lord Jesus Christ (v. 37) and the infallibility of the Covenant of Grace (v. 38–39)

-----

taken from A Baptist Catechism...with Commentary, by W.R.Downing

Anthony D'Arienzo · Oct 5, 2019

Standard bible encyclopedia

In Romans 8:29,30 the word "foreknow" occurs in immediate connection with God's predestination of the objects of salvation. Those whom God foreknew, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His son. Now the foreknowledge in this case cannot mean a mere prescience or foresight of faith (Meyer, Godet) or love (Weiss) in the subjects of salvation, which faith or love is supposed to determine the Divine predestination. This would not only contradict Paul's view of the absolutely sovereign and gracious character of election, but is diametrically opposed to the context of this passage. These verses form a part of the encouragement which Paul offers his readers for their troubles, including their own inward weakness. The apostle tells them that they may be sure that all things work together for good to them that love God; and these are defined as being those whom God has called in accordance with His purpose. Their love to God is evidently their love as Christians, and is the result of a calling which itself follows from an eternal purpose, so that their Christian love is simply the means by which they may know that they have been the subjects of this calll. They have not come within the sphere of God's love by their own choice, but have been "called" into this relationship by God, and that in accordance with an eternal purpose on His part.

What follows, therefore, must have as its motive simply to unfold and ground this assurance of salvation by tracing it all back to the "foreknowledge" of God. To regard this foreknowledge as contingent upon anything in man would thus be in flat contradiction with the entire context of the passage as well as its motive. The word "foreknowledge" here evidently has the pregnant sense which we found it to have in Peter. Hence, those whom God predestinates, calls, justifies and glorifies are just those whom He has looked upon with His sovereign love. To assign any other meaning to "foreknowledge" here would be out of accord with the usage of the term elsewhere in the New Testament when it is put in connection with predestination, and would contradict the purpose for which Paul introduces the passage, that is, to assure his readers that their ultimate salvation depends, not on their weakness, but on God's sovereign love and grace and power.

Giuliano · Oct 5, 2019

Anthony D'Arienzo said:
[QUOTE="Giuliano,

In romans 11, unbelieving Jews are broken off, that believing gentiles are grafted in.

You better give that another read.

Anthony D'Arienzo · Oct 5, 2019

Giuliano said:
You better give that another read.

no...I think I have it..

Giuliano · Oct 5, 2019

Anthony D'Arienzo said:
no...I think I have it..

Your summary was incomplete then.

John Caldwell · Oct 5, 2019

Giuliano said:
What about the Gentiles grafted in who are later cut out?

What if God chooses someone now? Are you limiting God there?

I am not limiting God at all. What I am saying is the lost (to include us before we were saved) are never the "elect". The "elect" are always those who are saved.

I believe the act of choosing, the act of remembering, and the act of foreseeing (among other things) in regard to God is anthropomorphic. God is eternal and immutable. So (in my understanding) God is not subject to time as we are, and does not progress or move along a linear way of being. God is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. He is immutable.

I do not ask you to accept my answer. It is my understanding of God. I only hope that we can come to know and appreciate each others understanding even if we never quite see eye to eye in this lifetime. We will one day, I promise.

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