Freemasonry

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Prayer Warrior

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Examine me the same way then.
Just as you would any other individual. Look beyond labels and what you "know" beforehand, and instead thoroughly examine and see.

Labels CAN have meaning. If you knew that someone called himself a Neo-Nazi, this would tell you certain things about what he believes, about the kind of person he is, no? So, we all use labels. Our brains can't function without categorizing. Unfortunately, as a result of the Fall, we humans ten to categorize others without seeing the whole heart as God sees it. And we all do this. Even you!
 
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Jane_Doe22

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Labels CAN have meaning. If you knew that someone called himself a Neo-Nazi, this would tell you certain things about what he believes, about the kind of person he is, no? So, we all use labels. Our brains can't function without categorizing. Unfortunately, as a result of the Fall, we humans ten to categorize others without seeing the whole heart as God sees it. And we all do this. Even you!
I strive every day to look past any labels and instead see a person-- as I see you.
Are you unwilling to even try to do the same?
 

Prayer Warrior

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I disagree on the belief thing...belief has saved millions and none belief saves no one.

So, you don't think it's important WHAT we believe as long as we believe something?

It would do you no good to condemn me...I am talking about Jane...and yes I saw it...but the person to ask is Jane.

Then put your money where your mouth is and give me a specific example of where I did this!!!

Truth and lies are from a perspective. One person sees a white dove in the sunlight and another sees a strobbing light. One person believes that salvation is through a process and another believe it is by faith. The world is full of beliefs and understandings.

So, you don't believe in objective truth, or what? Truth is not what we believe simply because we see something a certain way?? Truth is what God says is truth. He defines it! It's HIS call, not ours! All we can do is compare what we and others believe and say to what He has said...and pray that the Holy Spirit will show us what is true and what is not. And He will if we really want the truth!

I believe that you and I would have some differences, but most of those we maybe able to come to terms with. It is what you take away from your religion that would concern me more. What is the spirit of your religion...are we seeing it here. Is that condemnation? If I did not care for you....I would not waste my time....because I am not out to prove my beliefs or challenge others on the details of their's

What I take away from "my religion"?? If that's not a slap in the face, I don't know what is. My "religion" is my LIFE! Knowing Jesus, loving Him, following Him, obeying Him 24/7/365.... You can ask the people who live with me, and they will tell you that this is how I seek to live my life. I'm not perfect at it by any means, but I thought this was what the Christian life was supposed to be. No??
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Prayer Warrior

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In your liberalism, you're making some false assumptions about my conservative beliefs.

This one is funny! Liberal!!! If you only knew me...but conservative can apply to any belief.
When I used the term "liberalism," I meant that I think you tend to be liberal about what you accept as truth (huge bubble). I wasn't referring to any political views you have. You may be a card-carrying member of the NRA, for all I know. :eek:
 
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Prayer Warrior

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Because in order not to categorize at all, we would have to see others exactly how God sees them--knowing everything about their hearts, what motivates them, how they think,... God has an infinite mind that doesn't need to categorize. And yet, He does categorize people in terms of whether they are saved or lost, sheep or goats.... But He doesn't need to label us in order to be able to understand us.
 
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Jane_Doe22

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Because in order not to categorize at all, we would have to see others exactly how God sees them--knowing everything about their hearts, what motivates them, how they think,... God has an infinite mind that doesn't need to categorize. And yet, He does categorize people in terms of whether they are saved or lost, sheep or goats.... But He doesn't need to label us in order to be able to understand us.
Are you unwilling to see and examine me the same way that you've examined others and labeled them "Christian"?
 

Grailhunter

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So, you don't think it's important WHAT we believe as long as we believe something?



Then put your money where your mouth is and give me a specific example of where I did this!!!



So, you don't believe in objective truth, or what? Truth is not what we believe simply because we see something a certain way?? Truth is what God says is truth. He defines it! It's HIS call, not ours! All we can do is compare what we and others believe and say to what He has said...and pray that the Holy Spirit will show us what is true and what is not. And He will if we really want the truth!



What I take away from "my religion"?? If that's not a slap in the face, I don't know what is. My "religion" is my LIFE! Knowing Jesus, loving Him, following Him, obeying Him 24/7/365.... You can ask the people who live with me, and they will tell you that this is how I seek to live my life. I'm not perfect at it by any means, but I thought this was what the Christian life was supposed to be. No??
.

So, you don't think it's important WHAT we believe as long as we believe something?

lol What I believe is that everyone does not have to believe exactly what you or I believe, to be saved.

Truth is not what we believe simply because we see something a certain way?? Truth is what God says is truth. He defines it!

Ok, your children have to hate you to be a Christian......It is not just the reading of the words, it is the understanding of the words, there are interpretations that ends up as truth to different people. Truth is limited to understanding no matter how confident of a perspective. Your truth maybe that the bridge is solid, that is an understanding....you could end up in the water.

It's HIS call, not ours! All we can do is compare what we and others believe and say to what He has said...and pray that the Holy Spirit will show us what is true and what is not. And He will if we really want the truth!

His call, the most common failing of biblical understanding....Imposing your beliefs on the scriptures and thinking that your call, is His call. The scriptures should teach us and people do the best they can to understand. But how do you understand if you do not consider the Spirit of Christianity..Pray to Holy Spirit....who does not do that. You, me, Billy Graham, the Pope, and the priests that tortured and killed people in the witch hunts prayed to the Holy Spirit. Again understanding, with scriptures, reason and common sense and fairness, has to be included, how else can you apply the religion. John 8:15 You judge me by human standards, but I do not judge anyone. The Spirit and character of Christianity is important.
 

Prayer Warrior

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Are you unwilling to see and examine me the same way that you've examined others and labeled them "Christian"?
If you mean am I willing to look at the fruit I see from you, I'm already doing this. But I realize that I need God's wisdom to know what I'm looking at. I'm not sure what else to say.
 

Grailhunter

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When I used the term "liberalism," I meant that I think you tend to be liberal about what you accept as truth (huge bubble). I wasn't referring to any political views you have. You may be a card-carrying member of the NRA, for all I know. :eek:[/QUOTE

I answered Truth in another post but...
I am pretty sure I did not take a offense. I am a lifetime Republican and patriot. Yep on on the NRA
 

Prayer Warrior

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lol What I believe is that everyone does not have to believe exactly what you or I believe, to be saved.

Well, good! What they HAVE to believe is what GOD says they have to believe. And He's the only One who fully knows a person's heart. Isn't this supposed to be your argument? :D

Ok, your children have to hate you to be a Christian......It is not just the reading of the words, it is the understanding of the words, there are interpretations that ends up as truth to different people. Truth is limited to understanding no matter how confident of a perspective. Your truth maybe that the bridge is solid, that is an understanding....you could end up in the water.

Words are of NO use if we don't understand the meaning. Duh! If I BELIEVE that the bridge is solid, and it is not, then I would not be believing the TRUTH, would I? And this is my point. If we believe that which is not true and act on it, we could end up dead!!

His call, the most common failing of biblical understanding....Imposing your beliefs on the scriptures and thinking that your call, is His call. The scriptures should teach us and people do the best they can to understand. But how do you understand if you do not consider the Spirit of Christianity..Pray to Holy Spirit....who does not do that. You, me, Billy Graham, the Pope, and the priests that tortured and killed people in the witch hunts prayed to the Holy Spirit. Again understanding, with scriptures, reason and common sense and fairness, has to be included, how else can you apply the religion. John 8:15 You judge me by human standards, but I do not judge anyone. The Spirit and character of Christianity is important.

***Grailhunter, do you, or do you not believe in objective (some call it absolute) truth??? Apart from what any human believes??

Anyone can pray, but not all are willing to listen to what the Holy Spirit answers. When we ask for wisdom (His understanding), we cannot be double-minded. We have to humble ourselves by His grace to receive whatever He shows us. Maybe you should be marveling that any Christians agree on anything at all. I mean, this is a miracle of the Holy Spirit, don't you think?

I believe that you have judged ME! Now, if this is not true, I ask that the Holy Spirit will correct any wrong beliefs that I may have. I am being sincere about this. Fair enough? :)
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Grailhunter

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So, you don't think it's important WHAT we believe as long as we believe something?



Then put your money where your mouth is and give me a specific example of where I did this!!!



So, you don't believe in objective truth, or what? Truth is not what we believe simply because we see something a certain way?? Truth is what God says is truth. He defines it! It's HIS call, not ours! All we can do is compare what we and others believe and say to what He has said...and pray that the Holy Spirit will show us what is true and what is not. And He will if we really want the truth!



What I take away from "my religion"?? If that's not a slap in the face, I don't know what is. My "religion" is my LIFE! Knowing Jesus, loving Him, following Him, obeying Him 24/7/365.... You can ask the people who live with me, and they will tell you that this is how I seek to live my life. I'm not perfect at it by any means, but I thought this was what the Christian life was supposed to be. No??
.



What I take away from "my religion"?? If that's not a slap in the face, I don't know what is. My "religion" is my LIFE! Knowing Jesus, loving Him, following Him, obeying Him 24/7/365.... You can ask the people who live with me, and they will tell you that this is how I seek to live my life. I'm not perfect at it by any means, but I thought this was what the Christian life was supposed to be. No??

What I take away from "my religion"?? If that's not a slap in the face,

Ya I dislike you so much I want to slap you....give me a break! I will wash your feet! But don't you see you are slapping Jane...Is she questioning your religion?

My "religion" is my LIFE! Knowing Jesus, loving Him, following Him, obeying Him 24/7/365....

This is how you and I and Jane feel...we all feel that way because we are Christians.

I'm not perfect at it by any means, but I thought this was what the Christian life was supposed to be. No??

That is the problem with the details. If all we knew was to believe and love God and love each other...we would probably be practicing a better form of Christianity. If we spent our time protecting and helping one another, the religion would be better. All things in love....judge not lest you be judged. From there the higher understanding is icing on the cake. You could write on a 3X5 card all a person needs to know to be saved. And if you dropped those cards on an island and those there believed, odds are good they would practice a better form of Christianity.
 

Jane_Doe22

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If you mean am I willing to look at the fruit I see from you, I'm already doing this. But I realize that I need God's wisdom to know what I'm looking at. I'm not sure what else to say.
Prayer Warrior, below is what I'm seeing. You can tell me where I'm getting things right or wrong.

You've been told a bunch of false information about what "Mormons" believe and other "cultists". You've been told to focus on labels rather than actual individuals.

You're willing to acknowledge other folks as disciples of Christ (even when there's belief disagreements), but for me you refuse. When I share a part of my joy in Christ, you don't know what to say at all because it doesn't mesh with the label you've been given and you're not willing to put aside those labels.
 
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Prayer Warrior

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Ya I dislike you so much I want to slap you....give me a break! I will wash your feet! But don't you see you are slapping Jane...Is she questioning your religion?

I'm going to say this with as much gentleness as I possible can. I really think you need to let Jane stand on her own two feet. I don't believe it's helping her to speak for her as you are doing. If you're a parent, then you probably understand what I'm saying. It's not good to mollycoddle adults, and it's unconscionable when we, in essence, try to protect them from the truth. This is NOT the love of Jesus Christ!

Now, I asked you for specific examples of how you perceive that I have mistreated Jane. Yet, you refuse to provide any and continue with your accusations. If I were not a civil person, I would say, "Put up, or shut up!" But I recognize that this would be a rude thing to say, so I won't say it. ;)

BTW, "slap in the face" is an expression, not to be taken literally.

Edit: I also asked you a question about your belief concerning objective truth. If you care to answer, I would like to hear what you have to say.
 
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Grailhunter

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Well, good! What they HAVE to believe is what GOD says they have to believe. And He's the only One who fully knows a person's heart. Isn't this supposed to be your argument? :D



Words are of NO use if we don't understand the meaning. Duh! If I BELIEVE that the bridge is solid, and it is not, then I would not be believing the TRUTH, would I? And this is my point. If we believe that which is not true and act on it, we could end up dead!!



***Grailhunter, do you, or do you not believe in objective (some call it absolute) truth??? Apart from what any human believes??

Anyone can pray, but not all are willing to listen to what the Holy Spirit answers. When we ask for wisdom (His understanding), we cannot be double-minded. We have to humble ourselves by His grace to receive whatever He shows us. Maybe you should be marveling that any Christians agree on anything at all. I mean, this is a miracle of the Holy Spirit, don't you think?

I believe that you have judged ME! Now, if this is not true, I ask that the Holy Spirit will correct any wrong beliefs that I may have. I am being sincere about this. Fair enough? :)
.

Grailhunter, do you, or do you not believe in objective (some call it absolute) truth??? Apart from what any human believes??

That is kind of the point...comprehension of total divine truth or reality is a little above us. Absolute truth is what we all want.
If you have absolute truth what are you going to do with it? What is the nature and actions of a person that has absolute truth?
Is there an answer in the Bible? Yes, but it is not the doctrines, it is the study of the actions of Christ. What did He do when the adulterous woman was brought before Him or with the woman that washed His feet with her tears. Did she even ask for forgiveness? What did He do when faced with hunger, or disease, or death. Why would a God come to go through the passion and die on a cross? If it was not a demonstration of love, what was it? Courage yes, boat loads....But was He showing us the way...the WAY!
 

Jane_Doe22

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I'm going to say this with as much gentleness as I possible can. I really think you need to let Jane stand on her own two feet. I don't believe it's helping her to speak for her as you are doing. If you're a parent, then you probably understand what I'm saying. It's not good to mollycoddle adults, and it's unconscionable when we, in essence, try to protect them from the truth. This is NOT the love of Jesus Christ!

Now, I asked you for specific examples of how you perceive that I have mistreated Jane. Yet, you refuse to provide any and continue with your accusations. If I were not a civil person, I would say, "Put up, or shut up!" But I recognize that this would be a rude thing to say, so I won't say it. ;)

BTW, "slap in the face" is an expression, not to be taken literally.

Edit: I also asked you a question about your belief concerning objective truth. If you care to answer, I would like to hear what you have to say.
I've been very upfront with how I've felt mis-treated by you Prayer Warrior.
 

Grailhunter

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I'm going to say this with as much gentleness as I possible can. I really think you need to let Jane stand on her own two feet. I don't believe it's helping her to speak for her as you are doing. If you're a parent, then you probably understand what I'm saying. It's not good to mollycoddle adults, and it's unconscionable when we, in essence, try to protect them from the truth. This is NOT the love of Jesus Christ!

*****Now, I asked you for specific examples of how you perceive that I have mistreated Jane. Yet, you refuse to provide any and continue with your accusations. If I were not a civil person, I would say, "Put up, or shut up!" But I recognize that this would be a rude thing to say, so I won't say it. ;)****

BTW, "slap in the face" is an expression, not to be taken literally.

Edit: I also asked you a question about your belief concerning objective truth. If you care to answer, I would like to hear what you have to say.

I am sure that Jane can stand on her own two feet...she does not need practice....at one time she was doing with several people at her.

Now, I asked you for specific examples of how you perceive that I have mistreated Jane. Yet, you refuse to provide any and continue with your accusations. If I were not a civil person, I would say, "Put up, or shut up!" But I recognize that this would be a rude thing to say, so I won't say it. ;)

Again ask Jane...and I think she has already tried to explain that to you. From my stand point it is your demeanor, focus, and obvious intent. Again ask Jane. You don't get rude? I do! But I do not get rude with the ladies and I am not going to get rude with someone that believes in their heart that they are doing right. There have been a lot of bad things done by people that thought they were right. That is where my ministry comes in, why I do not pick a denomination.

New paragraph.....Good person, I am sure you are....but good persons can do wrong things. We all wish we could ask Christ, "What do you think of this?" But he is not sitting next to you or I, and the words in the Bible will tell you one thing and me another, with both of us praying to the Holy Spirit, night and day. What is left? Look at Christ's actions and his attitude and his love, feel that and look at the words again. Only the Spirit of Christianity, of Christ can take letters written in ink and make them come live.
 
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Prayer Warrior

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Grailhunter, do you, or do you not believe in objective (some call it absolute) truth??? Apart from what any human believes??

That is kind of the point...comprehension of total divine truth or reality is a little above us. Absolute truth is what we all want.
If you have absolute truth what are you going to do with it? What is the nature and actions of a person that has absolute truth?
Is there an answer in the Bible? Yes, but it is not the doctrines, it is the study of the actions of Christ. What did He do when the adulterous woman was brought before Him or with the woman that washed His feet with her tears. Did she even ask for forgiveness? What did He do when faced with hunger, or disease, or death. Why would a God come to go through the passion and die on a cross? If it was not a demonstration of love, what was it? Courage yes, boat loads....But was He showing us the way...the WAY!

This is mystic talk--that the truth is above or beyond us. God brings it to our level. He makes Himself known. Even a child can understand the basics of who God is.... Of course, in a way, we have to come to Him as a little child--with that much innocent trust. But our lust for knowledge, to know things that God has not given us to know, can get in the way of understanding the simplest things about God and the simplest things about what it means to know Him, and this is what it's all about.

Again ask Jane...and I think she has already tried to explain that to you. From my stand point it is your demeanor, focus, and obvious intent. Again ask Jane. You don't get rude? I do! But I do not get rude with the ladies and I am not going to get rude with someone that believes in their heart that they are doing right. There have been a lot of bad things done by people that thought they were right. That is where my ministry comes in, why I do not pick a denomination.

Again, you need to get out of the way and let the Holy Spirit work between me and Jane! Really!

You have been rude to me, and when I pointed it out, you said you weren't being rude (and I didn't have a man to defend me). Okay, whatever, I moved on. This is what adults do.

Well, here's one thing you and I agree on. I'm about as anti-denominational as you can get. However, I will not look to false religions to find truth as you have. That's putting poison in the well.

John 4:13--Jesus said, “Everyone who drinks from this water will get thirsty again. But whoever drinks from the water that I will give him will never get thirsty again — ever! In fact, the water I will give him will become a well of water springing up within him for eternal life.”

New paragraph.....Good person, I am sure you are....but good persons can do wrong things. We all wish we could ask Christ, "What do you think of this?" But he is not sitting next to you or I, and the words in the Bible will tell you one thing and me another, with both of us praying to the Holy Spirit, night and day. What is left? Look at Christ's actions and his attitude and his love, feel that and look at the words again. Only the Spirit of Christianity, of Christ can take letters written in ink and make them come live.

I never said I'm a good person. My sin nature is as rotten as everyone else's, but I have been crucified with Christ. And I die daily by grace through faith in the One who died and rose so that I can die to sin and live to righteousness.

Jesus is IN us, and we are IN Him. How much closer can we get?? His sheep hear His voice!
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