The Religious Mind

H. Richard said:

I encourage you to THINK. Saul (Paul) was so religious that he went about persecuting and having all those that believed Jesus was the Christ killed. He believed he was doing God a favor. The RCC persecuted all those that would not believe what they believed and calling them Heretics had them killed. And here you are with the same attitude of imposing your belief's on others and if they refuse you castigate them. Your attitude is that you are the only one that is right and it is you doing God a favor by criticizing them for their beliefs.

Personally I see no difference between what Saul and the RCC did and what you are doing. I believe that if you were living in the dark ages you would do the same thing the RCC did. With your attitude there is no way I can believe as you do.

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You don't know my heart, sir.

The fact that I have a concise point of view and am fully convinced in my own mind in no way means that I would be among those who murdered Christians for their beliefs.

I have even stated in no uncertain terms (in the quoting of Ecclesiastes 11:9) that you ought to go ahead and believe what you want to believe. You would be believing wrongly; but you certainly have the right to believe what you want to believe.

Also, I am criticizing no one for their beliefs; but am rather here setting forth my own belief; and I believe that I am being criticized by you and others over it. So, take the beam out of your own eye so that you can see clearly to take out the speck that you see in mine.

Pearl said:

I think I will put him on ignore too. You can't have a decent discussion with him around.

@CharismaticLady likes this.

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Jesus said of His true disciples, You will be hated of all men for my name's sake.

Those who relish in the rejecting of my words are identifying themselves as unbelievers; in that they are walking in their hatred of someone who is their brother in Christ if they themselves are in Christ.

This is not the Christian thing to do...and it shows an animosity towards that which is truly Christian.

justbyfaith said:

Those who relish in the rejecting of my words are identifying themselves as unbelievers; in that they are walking in their hatred of someone who is their brother in Christ if they themselves are in Christ.

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you are absolutely wrong.. you have insulted woman .on one hand your wife is not allowed to ask questions at church . yet she has a position in children's church . so she cant ask the pastor a question but can teach children? why dont you teach children church since she is not allowed to ask questions ......you simply dont get it . its like a one sided coin with you .

H. Richard: "When the scripture said to "not forsake the assembling ourselves together," why do most assume it is in the formal religious services in a church building?"

"Most?" No, most Christians realize that there were no churches as architecturally distinct structures in the first-century church, but only house churches. You really do need to get more and sample a broader spectrum of Christian attitudes.

H. Richard: Heb 10:25: …"not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching." Why can't it be referring to Sunday school classes, Bible study classes, Bible study in the homes, or even home churches? It is a fact that the NT scriptures do not tell us what we are to do when we gather together except as written in the scripture above (exhorting one another) and to worship God. But I doubt very seriously that we are to worship God by the things we do physically (external). I think we are to worship God in our hearts (inside)."

You seem to be rationalizing your refusal to sing hymns and take Holy Communion in church worship services. Perhaps you need to study Paul's teaching about the need to sing hymns and partake of the Lord's Supper during corporate worship:
(a) ...be filled with the Spirit as you sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs among yourselves, singing and making melody to the Lord in your hearts (Ephesians 5:18-19)."
(b) "...with gratitude sing songs and hymns and spiritual songs to God (Colossians 3:16)."
(c) In 1 Corinthians 11:20-33, Paul implies that the church routinely includes Holy Communion as part of their service when they gather for worship.

H. Richard: "Why can't it (Hebrews 1):25) be referring to Sunday school classes, Bible study classes, Bible study in the homes, or even home churches? It is a fact that the NT scriptures do not tell us what we are to do when we gather together except as written in the scripture above (exhorting one another) and to worship God."
There is no evidence that the New Testament church held Sunday School or small group Bible studies with no external worship through music, singing, and the Lord's Supper.

H. Richard: "Why do some get the idea that God is somewhere in the ceiling of the Church building or some of the artifacts when, in fact, He is in the hearts of those that love Him?"

A typical ludicrous false caricature of corporate worship. You don't seem to take seriously that the church is the corporate Body of Christ in the sense that the body parts are intended to function in mutual support as part of a corporate harmony, a harmon y which can't exist unless believers regularly encounter each other in corporate worship and fellowship.

Ezra said:

why dont you teach children church since she is not allowed to ask questions

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She can ask me any question she wants to.

justbyfaith said:

There are certain things that restrict everyone's freedom. For example, speaking from the pulpit is limited to the minister that is appointed to speak. I know what that is like for me; because I have a gift for speaking the word to people (believe it or not); and I feel that my gifts and talents are not being used to the fullest extent possible.

But as for my wife, she teaches children's church and has more influence than you can even imagine because of that. She is affecting the next generation for Christ. I also do not restrict her from sharing her faith with anyone she chooses outside of a church setting. Women can operate in gifts in many ways, apart from speaking in a church setting. And also, in a church setting, they are definitely allowed to minister to other women. But there is a biblical, and therefore eternal, restriction on women teaching or usurping authority over a man. Because the Bible is the eternal word of God; it is timeless in nature. And therefore, when it says that women are not to teach men, it is to be heeded.

It is indeed a peripheral and perhaps minor issue in things. But if we are unfaithful in that which is least, we will also be unfaithful in much. Therefore if someone rejects this word, how can they be trusted to be faithful in issues that are of major importance to salvation?

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This post me back to another post where I asked you a question that you did not answer, or if you did I missed it. If you wife was to meet the pastor in the street, away from church, would she be allowed to ask him a question ?
I am pleased you wife teaches in Sunday's school ect.
I was thinking about this issue on the way to work yesterday , and some scenarios do not fit neatly into your conclusions ( for that is what they are - you and I have reached different conclusions )
I am a lone Christian within my family, my ex was not a Christian ( I came to faith three years into my marriage ) Now I have four children, from your prospective I have the right to teach my daughter as an adult, but not my three sons , as they are now grown up men. Yet there are times when I need to speak to them about spiritual matters and biblical truths. You have already said in another post that you would not take on any teaching the women of this forum give as women do not have authority.
What would you have me do, totally ignore the opportunity to ' teach ' , or do you consider that the rules change because they are my children?
Rita

justbyfaith said:

You don't know my heart, sir.

The fact that I have a concise point of view and am fully convinced in my own mind in no way means that I would be among those who murdered Christians for their beliefs.

I have even stated in no uncertain terms (in the quoting of Ecclesiastes 11:9) that you ought to go ahead and believe what you want to believe. You would be believing wrongly; but you certainly have the right to believe what you want to believe.

Also, I am criticizing no one for their beliefs; but am rather here setting forth my own belief; and I believe that I am being criticized by you and others over it. So, take the beam out of your own eye so that you can see clearly to take out the speck that you see in mine.

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That's exactly what you are doing Justbyfaith, you are claiming that others are wrong and you are right, that is being Crytical. If you just stated what you believed and made no comment about another persons views, well yes that would be you ' only setting fourth your own belief '
Rita

justbyfaith said:

Jesus said of His true disciples, You will be hated of all men for my name's sake.

Those who relish in the rejecting of my words are identifying themselves as unbelievers; in that they are walking in their hatred of someone who is their brother in Christ if they themselves are in Christ.

This is not the Christian thing to do...and it shows an animosity towards that which is truly Christian.

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When did pearl say she hated you- blocking someone on a forum is a choice we can all make. It just means that we choose not to read what they are writing.
Rita

justbyfaith said:

She can ask me any question she wants to.

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that's not what i asked WHY DON'T YOU TEACH CHILDREN CHURCH ?? or is that to much for you. YOUR either A, blowing hot hair or B treating your wife like dirt . you keep using scripture you will b hated ..no one hates you. just pointing out your a legalist

Butterfly said:

And red lipstick !

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FYI, an historical note:

"Elizabeth Arden was a huge advocate for women’s rights. In 1912, Arden alongside 15,000 other suffragettes marched past her Red Door Salon in New York, all wearing red lipstick. Red lipstick became a symbol of unity and power among women’s rights activists."

smiiink dot com / internationalwomensday-red-lipsticks/

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...arching_through_the_street_of_Washington.jpeg

Butterfly said:

Now I have four children, from your prospective I have the right to teach my daughter as an adult, but not my three sons , as they are now grown up men. Yet there are times when I need to speak to them about spiritual matters and biblical truths.

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There are other gifts of the Holy Spirit besides teaching.

Butterfly said:

What would you have me do, totally ignore the opportunity to ' teach ' , or do you consider that the rules change because they are my children?

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I would suggest that you ask the Lord for the gift of exhortation (if you do not have it) so that you can exhort your male children to read their Bibles and study to shew themselves approved. You can also direct them to what scriptures you think they should study at any given time of their lives. Teaching them the meaning of God's word is not the only way that you can reach them for Christ.

Butterfly said:

That's exactly what you are doing Justbyfaith, you are claiming that others are wrong and you are right, that is being Crytical. If you just stated what you believed and made no comment about another persons views, well yes that would be you ' only setting fourth your own belief '
Rita

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I began by stating my own belief and then others expressed their disagreement. So in order to not be critical I must say that their pov is valid also, even though it is unbiblical?

I also resent the implication (by @H. Richard) that I would murder other Christians over a disagreement. That is not my heart at all.

Ezra said:

.no one hates you. just pointing out your a legalist

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That is funny...gave me a good laugh.

As if legalists are not the enemy and in calling me a legalist you are not telling people to treat me as the enemy.

Pearl said:

Joel 2:28-29

The day of the Lord
‘And afterwards,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

So according to these verses the Holy Spirit will not differentiate between men and women so why do so many men in certain branches of the Church. If the same Spirit is in both brothers and sisters then it follows that both are given the same authority in Christ.

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He will pour out of His Spirit on all flesh...but He distributes spiritual gifts severally as He wills. If He does give the gift of teaching to a woman, it is so that she can teach other women or children; for that is the protocol given in holy scripture.

1Co 14:36, What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
1Co 14:37, If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

I hope that you will think that I am taking this scripture out of context so that you will look up its context.

H. Richard said:

And you don't know my heart either but you think you do and that is the problem between us.

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No; I don't think that I know your heart at all. Where have I ever judged what is in your heart? If you feel that your heart has been judged by me, then I believe that it is the word of the Lord that has made that judgment; for I have not made any judgments in my heart concerning you.

Jhn 12:47, And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Jhn 12:48, He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

I certainly try to follow Christ's example in this.

H. Richard said:

You feel that if I do not believe the same as you do I am not saved.

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Again false. Your relationship with the Lord is between you and Him. Where have I judged your salvation?

H. Richard said:

At least this is what comes across in what you say.

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I feel that I am merely addressing an issue and have not singled out anyone personally.

H. Richard said:

This is saying that I am not saved unless I believe <fify> what you believe.

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Again, where have I ever said that?

H. Richard said:

That is all I have claimed but you want to add man's works to it.

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Submitting to the commandments concerning propriety in worship is not works impaho. But even if it is, it is works that result out of a living faith/relationship with Christ; and has to do with an inward desire to not dishonour Him. Which I believe would be true of anyone who is born again; for if anyone is truly born again, do they not love the Lord? Why then would they deliberately dishonour Him in any fashion?

H. Richard said:

I also see that what is between us <fify> is religion. The religious have persecuted the children of God since Cain and Able.

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I am not persecuting you.

H. Richard said:

You will reply to this reply because you feel you must vindicate yourself. But I have had enough of you. You should apologize to those you have put down because you think you are the judge of their salvation.

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I do not need to "vindicate myself" because I have done nothing wrong. I have judged no one's salvation and have not singled anyone out as unsaved. If I have made a general statement about the heart's attitude of those who are saved; and if you yourself don't fit into that category: then judge whether the statement is accurate and then judge your own salvation by that statement if you deem it to be accurate. Other than that, I have not pointed the finger at anyone here.

H. Richard said:

But pride will keep you from doing it.

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What have I now done? Is there not a cause? (1 Samuel 17:28-29).

H. Richard said:

As I see it obeying Him is putting faith in His work on the cross and only in His work. It certainly is not putting faith in the flesh to keep rules and regulations to save it's self.

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H. Richard said:

To Obey Him is to put faith in His work on the cross nothing else. It certainly IS NOT putting faith in man. and that includes putting faith in the work of the flesh.

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still trying that Greasy Grace thing huh HR.
ok bro

dont work to make your calling and election sure
its dbl-hard when youre carrying around a load of unconfessed guilt, huh

Ezra said:

just pointing out your a legalist

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If you can't obey the Lord in the little things, how are you going to obey Him in the things that matter most?

Jer 12:5, If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses? and if in the land of peace, wherein thou trustedst, they wearied thee, then how wilt thou do in the swelling of Jordan?

Luk 16:10, He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.

justbyfaith said:

If you can't obey the Lord in the little things, how are you going to obey Him in the things that matter most?

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obey as in a hair cut & not wear a hat ? obey as is your wife is not allowed to ask questions at church and only to you??? see there was many problems in the corinth church.. i find you off bases .i have read some back ground history on this..
it reads this was a greek custom.. the christian ladies did this to show they was not the immoral temple prostitutes. from what i am reading this is more symbolic . many strange things took place in the corinth church .incest you name it. yes some of the things are filtered back in.. but to forbid a woman to ask questions in church and not directed to you. but allowed to teach children's church ?????

might i add its a tough job doing Children's church the right way. in most cases the women are far better than men . i do hate to bust your bubble but your belief on women role in church is way off. don't get me wrong the man is the head of the house . the men are to look out for the woman in his family . in many cases the man will not attend Church so the woman has to be the spiritual leader for the children.. in marriage the woman should help in making decisions. i think woman look good in dresses at church . but there are dress slacks also .

Hi Justbyfaith,
I cannot do a lot of cutting and pasting , and you have chosen to address quite a few things in one post, and quite a few people.
I guess I got my answer , with regards to my children. To ask for the gift of exhortation, you are really saying that I should encourage my sons to find their own answers - and not ' teach ' them myself. When I was looking up the definition of the word, I found it interesting that within the church a pastor is often called an exhortor - I mean it makes sense as they do, and should encourage people to do things for themselves.
I am pleased that you recognise that ' teaching ' is a gift of the Holy Spirit !
By the way in an earlier post you mentioned that you desire to teach, but are restricted from doing so because you are not in that role within your church. This is an issue I have with many churches, that the pastors don't recognise the gifts of others and utilise them. Although we had pastors in the churches I was a part of, other members of the congregation were often given the opportunity to preach the word, or lead studies - and , well I must add, this was a mixture of male and female.
I think I am done on the subject - like Ezra, I see a cultural context, your conclusions have not caused me to doubt the convictions that I have on the subject.
I think we both know where we stand on the subject- and Its just pointless going round and round with it.
Rita

Butterfly said:

that the pastors don't recognise the gifts of others and utilise them.

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most of the churches i know of utilize. a good solid Bible teacher makes the preachers job easier